Update 1.5 made stamina able to out dps magica, thanks to you zenimax!

Medakon

I been playing eso since day one and when I first started I were doing dual wield and bow Nightblade. Worked pretty fine I guess, so I used this until vr 10. Once update 1.1 craglorn came out I had to swap to magica and use light armour. After this magica user became superior to stamina user and forced everyone to change there way of playing and become magica users with staffs.

Zenimax have worked on this subject for a long time, and now they have finally found a solution in balancing the stamina/magica users.

After I heard rumors of 1.5 made stamina playable for nightblades I had to check this out. Stamina is still bad for the other classes and need fix, maybe not so much for sorch, but for dk and templar its not compare able with magica.

I got tips to follow this player made guide to stamina and started experimenting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAaqFs1v8Po

After geting the right gear and doing alot of pratice on rotation for a whole day, I joined my guild to do trials. We had alot of nightblades in the party wich was magica so I compered myself to them after each boss fight. Some of the nightblades had 1k dps, and some had 1300.. and I had 1350 with stamina. Keep in mind I didnt have maxed gear like the other nightblades with magica.

So this this make Stamina slighty higer damage than magica casters, but it is just barely.(may be even higer difference once I get more used to the rotations).

So zenimax have actually made stamina compareable with magica dps wise, but there is still an issue. Magica nightblades have ultimate up maybe 3-4 times at the last boss in AA, while a stamina only got it once or twice. And magica nightblades also bring alot of support to the group, while a stamina user brings none.

This is the main issue I have at the moment where people don't wanna have me in the party because of the lack of the support I bring, even toght I do slighty more dps they still don't think its worth it.

Stamina users need to get some kind of support for the group, like passivs wich increase combat regain and stack maybe? maybe increase damage done for everyone with 10% if there is a bow user / dualwield/ 2handed in the group for everyone? then magica users would love to have some stamina players in the party.

I don't know to be honest, what do you guys think would be an option to help stamina support beter for there groups? And again, thank you zenimax team for trying to improve stamina users, almost there! Just need that finishing touch.


(Sorry for alot of grammer issues )

manny254

Stamina is actually good on a classes now. Templar has radiant aura for extreme regen, sorc has high power and some healing from crit surge, and dk sits in the middle of power and resource management. DK has dragons blood for self heal and regen. They also get 4% of there stamina back when using an earthen heart ability, one of wich is molten armaments which gives about 22 weapon damage. One morph basicly gives a free fire enchant, and the other gives you a short boost to crit chance.

Medakon

manny254 wrote: »

Stamina is actually good on a classes now. Templar has radiant aura for extreme regen, sorc has high power and some healing from crit surge, and dk sits in the middle of power and resource management. DK has dragons blood for self heal and regen. They also get 4% of there stamina back when using an earthen heart ability, one of wich is molten armaments which gives about 22 weapon damage. One morph basicly gives a free fire enchant, and the other gives you a short boost to crit chance.

It may be beter now, but still for the other classes the magica version is superior to the stamina one except nightblades with stamina. And for templar with radient aura is allready used by healers wich make that a waste of ability sloted for a dps. I doubt a stamina user dragonknight can compare to a op magica dragonknight with 1.5k+ single target wich no other class can beat even with magica.

TheBull

Nice vid OP. thanks.

Jahoel

Medakon wrote: »

It may be beter now, but still for the other classes the magica version is superior to the stamina one except nightblades with stamina. And for templar with radient aura is allready used by healers wich make that a waste of ability sloted for a dps. I doubt a stamina user dragonknight can compare to a op magica dragonknight with 1.5k+ single target wich no other class can beat even with magica.

Radiant Aura provides additional stamina regeneration (15%) for the Templar when slotted. This ability is near paramount to effectively and reliably maintaining competitive DPS as a stamina Templar, regardless of whether or not they are the ones activating it.

I would call Nightblade the strongest class for a Stamina build, however Dragonknights are incredibly effective as well. I personally have run with a Dragonknight 2H performing well in excess of 1,400 DPS on a sustained (90 second plus) single target fight. Not the best DPS that I have ever seen for the DK, but workable.

I have spoken with a Sorc 2H DPS that claims 1,400 as well- though I have not seen evidence of it. If true, which I have little reason to doubt the players honesty, this number is greater than most Sorcerer that run magicka builds that I have seen.

My stamia Templar averages 1300-1400 in a proper group, also. This is greater than any Templar that I know of that is not using some manner of stamina build.

ALL classes are indeed effective, and in most cases competitive, with a stamina build in the games current iteration.

To the point of your OP, I certainly am glad you are enjoying your NB stamina DPS and I share your gratitude for all of the balancing work Zenimax has done and continues to do. I can agree that stamina builds often lack the flexibility and utility of magicka builds. Honestly I would be happy with keeping it that way, and slightly improving stamina DPS again. More DPS for reduced group support.

Bouvin

Medakon wrote: »

I been playing eso since day one and when I first started I were doing dual wield and bow Nightblade. Worked pretty fine I guess, so I used this until vr 10. Once update 1.1 craglorn came out I had to swap to magica and use light armour. After this magica user became superior to stamina user and forced everyone to change there way of playing and become magica users with staffs.

...

I don't know to be honest, what do you guys think would be an option to help stamina support beter for there groups? And again, thank you zenimax team for trying to improve stamina users, almost there! Just need that finishing touch.


(Sorry for alot of grammer issues )

What add on are you using for Health Bars & Part Frames & Buffs?

Medakon

Bouvin wrote: »

What add on are you using for Health Bars & Part Frames & Buffs?

I'm not the creater of the video, but I think he uses azura or something

NotSo

As a stamina sorc, I make sure to maintain Circle of Protection and concentrate on absorbing damage from ads during a boss fight. There are not very many class abilities that I rely on besides Critical Surge and I have yet to make a spec to make my debut in Cyrodiil.

xMovingTarget

O hey, Jecklls Vid

I think its fine @Medakon. You dont want to know how often he died using that in our Sanctum runs. Because of Surivability he switched back to Magicka
So its a drawback on that part.

@Bouvin He is using ggFrames for health bars etc and Srendarr for buffs

AshySamurai

xMovingTarget wrote: »

O hey, Jecklls Vid

I think its fine @Medakon. You dont want to know how often he died using that in our Sanctum runs. Because of Surivability he switched back to Magicka
So its a drawback on that part.

@Bouvin He is using ggFrames for health bars etc and Srendarr for buffs

You just ruined my dreams about stamina. Hope CS will change stam/magik balance.

timidobserver

As a trials healer, I am bias toward preferring magicka just because magicka/ranged players tend to take less damage, but overall Stamina definitely beats out Magicka for dps now.

I still prefer Magicka NBs in Sanctum Ophidia just because veils are so valuable there, but everywhere else Stamina NBs are great.

xMovingTarget

i´m gonna go SO 2H/DW today with my DK. Gonna be Epic!

AshySamurai wrote: »

You just ruined my dreams about stamina. Hope CS will change stam/magik balance.

Chill dude. Just craft some of your armor nirnhoned for a bit extra spell resist and you are good to go You wont really loose dps

Jeckll even says it in the video : "This is the most squishy build i´ve ever played".

You lack soo much spell resi compared to LA. When 95% of Incoming damage is spell when you are not a tank.

Samadhi

Medakon wrote: »

...
So this this make Stamina slighty higer damage than magica casters, but it is just barely.(may be even higer difference once I get more used to the rotations).

So zenimax have actually made stamina compareable with magica dps wise, but there is still an issue. Magica nightblades have ultimate up maybe 3-4 times at the last boss in AA, while a stamina only got it once or twice. And magica nightblades also bring alot of support to the group, while a stamina user brings none.
...

Like it this way. Stamina with higher damage and magic with more utility makes sense to me.

Medakon wrote: »

...
I don't know to be honest, what do you guys think would be an option to help stamina support beter for there groups? And again, thank you zenimax team for trying to improve stamina users, almost there! Just need that finishing touch.
...

While the idea of Stamina synergies and such appeals to me simply for making the game more involved to play, do not personally think Stamina should have many options for support. Stamina seems best to me if it does solid damage and provides extended individual mobility.

Personally play both Stamina and Magicka builds (and even a Health build...), and do not really want all the different playstyles to be doing the exact same things; that would kill most of the reason to swap between them to begin with.

itsBishop

timidobserver wrote: »

As a trials healer, I am bias toward preferring magicka just because magicka/ranged players tend to take less damage

Another healer here who agrees. Magicka users also are able to hold block while casting in large trash pulls in SO without gimping their damage output. I find that stamina builds just tend to be squishier overall (lacking the spell resist) and end up taking significantly more damage. There are work arounds for this, such as throwing down circle of protection/keeping combat prayer up 100% of the time, but until ZOS makes some changes to the way blocking/sprinting/dodge rolling eats at the stamina resource pool magicka users will always have that extra edge up in terms of their survivability/damage output ratio in large pulls.

Hypertionb14_ESO

i would like to point out, Bow DPS can sustain 1k. i know other classes can maintain 1.5k+ at close range (DK) but 1k at extremel range is really good.

i have also found its pretty easy to stay quite tough as a Stam DPS at least on NB..

Elude and Mirage is really good to have up in AOE situations. i then keep up Siphoning Attacks and powerextract when i have some magicka to boost weapon damage, then spam Steel Tornado.

Aeratus

xMovingTarget wrote: »

O hey, Jecklls Vid

I think its fine @Medakon. You dont want to know how often he died using that in our Sanctum runs. Because of Surivability he switched back to Magicka
So its a drawback on that part.

@Bouvin He is using ggFrames for health bars etc and Srendarr for buffs

What about sorc stamina? Seems like a very good combination of high dps (due to stamina), and high survivability (crit surge).

Wolfenbelle

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i would like to point out, Bow DPS can sustain 1k. i know other classes can maintain 1.5k+ at close range (DK) but 1k at extremel range is really good.

Question for ppl who mention figures like this: sustain 1k and 1.5k: Is that per hit or total DPS for one fight. Meaning...

I attack a single target with my bow and do 1k with one hit...OR
I attack that single target and when the fight ends the total DPS I did was 1k?

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me understand this better.

itsBishop

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Question for ppl who mention figures like this: sustain 1k and 1.5k: Is that per hit or total DPS for one fight. Meaning...

I attack a single target with my bow and do 1k with one hit...OR
I attack that single target and when the fight ends the total DPS I did was 1k?

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me understand this better.

The latter. All quoted sustained DPS should be the reading from the damage meter after a significantly lengthy, single target fight. So we're interested in the accumulated average damage output per second over a long enough period of time. Someone putting out 1k DPS over a 30 second fight would therefore have done a total of ~30,000 damage to the target.

timidobserver

itsBishop wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

As a trials healer, I am bias toward preferring magicka just because magicka/ranged players tend to take less damage

Another healer here who agrees. Magicka users also are able to hold block while casting in large trash pulls in SO without gimping their damage output. I find that stamina builds just tend to be squishier overall (lacking the spell resist) and end up taking significantly more damage. There are work arounds for this, such as throwing down circle of protection/keeping combat prayer up 100% of the time, but until ZOS makes some changes to the way blocking/sprinting/dodge rolling eats at the stamina resource pool magicka users will always have that extra edge up in terms of their survivability/damage output ratio in large pulls.

Yup, you really see it on Stonebreaker(2nd boss of Sanctum Ophidia.) As a healer in that encounter, sometimes I just want to tell the melee to just go stand in the back and go afk or something while the ranged kills it.

xMovingTarget

Ok, today i did SO on my dk as med armor 2H/DW. Damage was not the problem. BUT to sustain stamina as DK is a real struggle. Once you down you are down. theres no way to really bring it back up.

On magicka i just spam spell symmetry 3 times and i am good. But on Stamina dude. Its not viable enough. There are way too much Magicka pool supporting spells(Mystical Orb=inf. magicka). But almost nothing for stamina. And then only Templars have em. But its nothing compared to the return for Magicka.

And then on Serpent when you get pulled far away by pull totem you are basically dead. No stamina to roll back or sprint.

The stamina mechanic needs to change. at least for all the non nightblades. dodge, block, sprint shouldnt be fed by the stamina pool. There need to be an additional shared resource just for that.

For long fights, no way to keep it up like with magicka.

xMovingTarget

Aeratus wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

O hey, Jecklls Vid

I think its fine @Medakon. You dont want to know how often he died using that in our Sanctum runs. Because of Surivability he switched back to Magicka
So its a drawback on that part.

@Bouvin He is using ggFrames for health bars etc and Srendarr for buffs

What about sorc stamina? Seems like a very good combination of high dps (due to stamina), and high survivability (crit surge).

Nobody keeps you from trying I have no idea about sorcs. Never played one. I found sorcs boring to play. I stick with DK/NB.

But yea, just try it and give some feedback back to us

kijima

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Ok, today i did SO on my dk as med armor 2H/DW. Damage was not the problem. BUT to sustain stamina as DK is a real struggle. Once you down you are down. theres no way to really bring it back up.

On magicka i just spam spell symmetry 3 times and i am good. But on Stamina dude. Its not viable enough. There are way too much Magicka pool supporting spells(Mystical Orb=inf. magicka). But almost nothing for stamina. And then only Templars have em. But its nothing compared to the return for Magicka.

And then on Serpent when you get pulled far away by pull totem you are basically dead. No stamina to roll back or sprint.

The stamina mechanic needs to change. at least for all the non nightblades. dodge, block, sprint shouldnt be fed by the stamina pool. There need to be an additional shared resource just for that.

For long fights, no way to keep it up like with magicka.

I hear what your saying, but as an example when I run 7 medium with bow and throw in Heavy attacks, I have all the stamina I need with both creating and recovering stamina.

Khivas_Carrick

As a Stamina Templar Dps, I tend to do rather well in both dps and staying alive these days. Topping meters is another story, but I can compete now, which is nice.

xMovingTarget

kijima wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Ok, today i did SO on my dk as med armor 2H/DW. Damage was not the problem. BUT to sustain stamina as DK is a real struggle. Once you down you are down. theres no way to really bring it back up.

On magicka i just spam spell symmetry 3 times and i am good. But on Stamina dude. Its not viable enough. There are way too much Magicka pool supporting spells(Mystical Orb=inf. magicka). But almost nothing for stamina. And then only Templars have em. But its nothing compared to the return for Magicka.

And then on Serpent when you get pulled far away by pull totem you are basically dead. No stamina to roll back or sprint.

The stamina mechanic needs to change. at least for all the non nightblades. dodge, block, sprint shouldnt be fed by the stamina pool. There need to be an additional shared resource just for that.

For long fights, no way to keep it up like with magicka.

I hear what your saying, but as an example when I run 7 medium with bow and throw in Heavy attacks, I have all the stamina I need with both creating and recovering stamina.

I made a video. will upload til tomorrow and post it here. So you see it firsthand. It will have serpent fight on it as 2H DPS DK.


edit : NVM, its already up.

http://youtu.be/zVfRUr9DR_Y

That thumbnail is 10/10 !

DeLindsay

itsBishop wrote: »

Another healer here who agrees. Magicka users also are able to hold block while casting in large trash pulls in SO without gimping their damage output. I find that stamina builds just tend to be squishier overall (lacking the spell resist) and end up taking significantly more damage. There are work arounds for this, such as throwing down circle of protection/keeping combat prayer up 100% of the time, but until ZOS makes some changes to the way blocking/sprinting/dodge rolling eats at the stamina resource pool magicka users will always have that extra edge up in terms of their survivability/damage output ratio in large pulls.

With exception to the block while damaging comment (which is true) any Stamina based user could easily have one additional Ring/Neck in their bag that has +630 Spell Resist instead of 14 Weapon Damage which would put them at roughly the same Spell Resistance as Magicka users. As far into DR as those builds are with Weapon Damage, the loss of (1) +14 glyph won't effect their DPS by a noticeable amount but not causing the Healers to stress to keep them alive or players having to resurrect them with any regularity WILL be noticeable.

I also agree that it seems fitting for Stamina builds to be higher DPS while having less Utility and being squishier than Magicka builds, sort of like Glass Cannons.

Medakon

AshySamurai wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

O hey, Jecklls Vid

I think its fine @Medakon. You dont want to know how often he died using that in our Sanctum runs. Because of Surivability he switched back to Magicka
So its a drawback on that part.

@Bouvin He is using ggFrames for health bars etc and Srendarr for buffs

You just ruined my dreams about stamina. Hope CS will change stam/magik balance.

I most say there is almost no difference in survival with medium armour than surviving while spamming spell symetry in light. You even take less damage than a light armour user on manticora(first boss serpent) since you got more armour than lightarmour users and its pycihal dmg. I actually think its harder to survive as mage caster than medium user in Sanctum. Been doing lots and lots of sanctum run and I only died 1 or twice during 5runs maybe. I would say go for stamina if you want because survival isnt an issue if you know what ur doing.

DeLindsay wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

I also agree that it seems fitting for Stamina builds to be higher DPS while having less Utility and being squishier than Magicka builds, sort of like Glass Cannons.

Agree on this one

kijima

The Medium Armour Skill is pretty good, nothing like dodging the barrage of arrows currently in PvP at the moment.

Will dodge for Skooma

Iduyenn

Burst vs sustained stamina

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

I cant speak about sanctum ( coz i havent tried it ) but can about any other pve content ( vet dungeons hard mode, aa, hel ra , arena, vet arena ). Stamina builds doesnt have any issue regarding survivability / resource / dps outputs.
I play redguard NB dw/dw or bow build and on all bosses i can make 1,1 k + .
There are some fights which are in favor of ranged weapons but still its not big issue. I find that only department where stamina builds are bit behind is long duration aoe encounters where very rarely i can go over 3k. Even than stamina resource is not issue - simply damage is not high enough.
Regarding group sinergies - stamina nbs cant produce that many ultimates as magic based NB's.

Razzak

1200, 1300, 1500, ... Are this numbers a normal rotation without crits, or just the largest number that a char can have in DPS?

TehMagnus

xMovingTarget wrote: »

O hey, Jecklls Vid

I think its fine @Medakon. You dont want to know how often he died using that in our Sanctum runs. Because of Surivability he switched back to Magicka
So its a drawback on that part.

@Bouvin He is using ggFrames for health bars etc and Srendarr for buffs

I was initially against @Medakon bringing his stamina build to Sanctum because I thought he'd die as well because of the survivability issues for stam builds, but he only died once so I guess it is doable. Gotta admit I was spaming Ring of preservation on the floor the entire raid since I was scared for his resistance .

Still don't agree with the survivability being better for Medium armor users. Most of the deaths in Sanctum runs come in the trash between bosses and not bosses themselves. Get poop on you + electricity AOE from Overchargers = almost insta death for a LA wearer so for medium armor user if you don't get heals right away: you're dead. Compared to spell symmetry, a good player will only use once and max twice if he knows he is not in danger which means he will loose 600 hp or 1200 hp in rare ocasions which is healed in 1 BOL.

In any case I agree with Medakon's OP. Damage output is a bit superior to other nightblades but at the same time he's using less veils (so less damage mitigation for party) and isn't using funnel health or refreshing path (so a bit less heals for the party). Which in the ends translates (at equal skill) for a marginal DPS increment at the cost of a lot of utility .

Stamina based DoTs like bleeding effects that do affect bosses would likely increase the DPS of stamina users as well as their ulti regeneartion which would translate into more ultimates and thus more utility...