CS->12 constellations ... hmmm...12... really? What about the serpent?

Elsterchen

What is happening to the 13. constellation (the serpent, the only constellation that is not connected to any guardian) in the CS system ?

nerevarine1138

You may want to pay a little more attention to the storyline in Craglorn...

Gyudan

OMG It all makes sense now! They wanted 3 even groups of constellations for the Champion System, so they made up the entire Craglorn storyline to get rid of the Serpent!

Or maybe it's just a coincidence.

Kaghei

Arent the 3 main constellations going to be mage, serpent Thief* and warrior, then 3 more into each of those

AngryNord

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Birthsigns

Tonnopesce

Hi i'm the serpent and since i'm forever alone i've decided to rule the world.
A common format....... Great idea zos

ThatHappyCat

The Serpent has always been the odd one out, said to be made of "Unstars" (what the hell does that mean? Never explained anywhere), wandering the heavens and "threatening" the other constellations. Not being included in the Champion system seems pretty reasonable to me.

Elsterchen

Hallo everyone,
thank u for your answers but you must be wrong concerning craglorn: this is from this forum (elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/game-guide/storyhttp://) and it states very clearly that the serpent is a constellation (i.e. "The constellation of the Serpent grew so large that it dominated the night sky.")

Furthermore: ESO is taking place in the 2nd Era ... which is way before the other stories some of you might know (Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion (3rd era) and Skyrim (4th era)... source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline) happen and in these times the serpent might be a constellation that is a bit odd ... nevertheless it does exist and is part of the lore. (In all TES games my first toon choose to be serpent - nerver minded the bonus, but liked the description :-) )

Adding to it, when you reach v1 and have the possibility to enter craglorn for the first time you are already confronted with the CS (... and yes i will most probably not play the craglorn questline due to RP-reasons). So even BEFORE completing the craglorn questline (do not push me out of the window please- in this case i really do not know what i am talking about, but I hope you do understand my argument ;-) ) the serpent is gone (why "gone?" - I thought it DOMINATES the sky? )
and
while this might even be true as a temporary state, the lore (see timeline argument above) tells us its not a permanent one.

In sum this just does not make sense at all, lorewise, or ,... well... at least i do not get the point of only 12 constellations beeing part of the CS.

Thanks again for your answers, but I hope my reasons to neglegt the answers you provided are reasonable and understandable.

Please keep on discussing!

edit: Spelling, grammar, clearifcation of arguments

Koensol

Elsterchen wrote: »

Hallo everyone,
thank u for your answers but you must be wrong concerning craglorn: this is from this forum (elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/game-guide/storyhttp://) and it states very clearly that the serpent is a constellation (i.e. "The constellation of the Serpent grew so large that it dominated the night sky.")

Furthermore: ESO is taking place in the 2nd Era ... which is way before the other stories some of you might know (Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion (3rd era) and Skyrim (4th era)... source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline) happen and in these times the serpent might be a constellation that is a bit odd ... nevertheless it does exist and is part of the lore. (In all TES games my first toon choose to be serpent - nerver minded the bonus, but liked the description :-) )

Adding to it, when you reach v1 and have the possibility to enter craglorn for the first time you are already confronted with the CS (... and yes i will most probably not play the craglorn questline due to RP-reasons... but I might do some quests there anyways - so even BEFORE completing the craglorn questline (do not push me out of the window please- in this case i really do not know what i am talking about, but I hope you do understand my argument ;-) ) the serpent is gone ( why "gone?" - I thought it DOMINATES the sky? )
and
while this might even be true as a temporary state, the lore (see timeline argument above) tells us its not a permanent one. This just does not make sense.

Thanks again for your answers, but I hope my reasons to neglegt the answers you provided are reasonable and understandable.

Please keep on discussing!

You might want to actually complete the storyline before making such threads.

Elsterchen

Koensol wrote: »

You might want to actually complete the storyline before making such threads.

I did complete the storyline (please see the storyline articel in this forum (elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/game-guide/storyhttp://), molag bal is no threat anymore. :-)

Do not understand what this has to do with the 13.th constellation missing from the CS system, while beeing present in the stories at a later time, thou.

Ragefist

Elsterchen wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

You might want to actually complete the storyline before making such threads.

I did complete the storyline (please see the storyline articel in this forum (elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/game-guide/storyhttp://), molag bal is no threat anymore. :-)

Do not understand what this has to do with the 13.th constellation missing from the CS system, while beeing present in the stories at a later time, thou.

Serpent storyline bro, Craglorn stuff

Elsterchen

Ragefist wrote: »

Serpent storyline bro, Craglorn stuff

Well, sista

... the final quest (dawn of the exalted viper) reveals that u kill a monarch that wants to gain powers equal those of a guardian so he can destroy belkart... you do not kill the serpent.

No, the storyline in craglorn does not explain why the CS is only accounting 12 constellations.

IF I was picky I could even add to my question one further line like: Why not only 9 constellations, since in craglorn all 3 all three guardians as well as the serpent are temorarily missing?
I surely refrain from that because I know that in a few years it will be as always in the elder scrolls universe: 13 constellations: 3 guardians with each 3 assigned constellations and the serpent will brighten up the nights sky of TES.

nerevarine1138

Elsterchen wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

Serpent storyline bro, Craglorn stuff

Well, sista

... the final quest (dawn of the exalted viper) reveals that u kill a monarch that wants to gain powers equal those of a guardian so he can destroy belkart... you do not kill the serpent.

No, the storyline in craglorn does not explain why the CS is only accounting 12 constellations.

IF I was picky I could even add to my question one further line like: Why not only 9 constellations, since in craglorn all 3 all three guardians as well as the serpent are temorarily missing?
I surely refrain from that because I know that in a few years it will be as always in the elder scrolls universe: 13 constellations: 3 guardians with each 3 assigned constellations and the serpent will brighten up the nights sky of TES.

Again, pay attention to the actual story, not just the plot points that seem to revolve around the Serpent.

The other constellations do not think the Serpent is a true celestial. It has always been the odd-man-out constellation, and the events in Craglorn represent its attempt to get back at the celestials for denying it its "rightful" place.

AlexDougherty

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The Serpent has always been the odd one out, said to be made of "Unstars" (what the hell does that mean? Never explained anywhere), wandering the heavens and "threatening" the other constellations.

Sounds like Blackholes to me, you know that are dark and blots out stars (unstars) and threatens other Constellations (by consuming the stars in those constellations).

ThatHappyCat

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The Serpent has always been the odd one out, said to be made of "Unstars" (what the hell does that mean? Never explained anywhere), wandering the heavens and "threatening" the other constellations.

Sounds like Blackholes to me, you know that are dark and blots out stars (unstars) and threatens other Constellations (by consuming the stars in those constellations).

The cosmology of TES is different from the real world. Stars in TES are holes torn through the fabric of reality by the Magne-Ge, Aedric spirits that abandoned creation in the footsteps of Magnus the Architect (who tore the gigantic hole the denizens of Nirn call the "sun"), as they fled into Aetherius.

AlexDougherty

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The Serpent has always been the odd one out, said to be made of "Unstars" (what the hell does that mean? Never explained anywhere), wandering the heavens and "threatening" the other constellations.

Sounds like Blackholes to me, you know that are dark and blots out stars (unstars) and threatens other Constellations (by consuming the stars in those constellations).

The cosmology of TES is different from the real world. Stars in TES are holes torn through the fabric of reality by the Magna-Ge, Aedric spirits that abandoned creation in the footsteps of Magnus the Architect (who tore the gigantic hole the denizens of Nirn call the "sun"), as they fled into Aetherius.

True, but there are numerous theories about stars/suns in the lore. That one is the most common one, but it fails to explain how the sun causes planets to orbit, or how it produces heat.

Which is why I mentioned blackholes, they fit, if you assume all the lore about stars and the sun is Religious Dogma, and they stars/suns use are like ours.

Elsterchen

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Again, pay attention to the actual story, not just the plot points that seem to revolve around the Serpent.

May I ask you to please be a little more specific ? When should I be especially attentive? ... I do not want to let this discussion end up one-sided but "pay more attention" really makes it hard for me to find an adequate answer. Please, if you feel uncomfortable about revealing explicit turns in the storyline, be my guest and use spoilers. :-)

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The other constellations do not think the Serpent is a true celestial. It has always been the odd-man-out constellation, and the events in Craglorn represent its attempt to get back at the celestials for denying it its "rightful" place.

King Emeric and High King Jorunn both think that Queen Ayreen is not a "rightful" legitimate to the ruby throne. ... i think u get my point by this example ^^

-> So while each NPC may have a certain story to tell it is player that has to decide on its own what is to be true or not. Majority rule hopefully does not apply to NPC opinion ... or else AD can stop sieging in cyrodil right now, please. ;-)

Point is... well, the serpent might well be rightfully a celestial and just do what it does to restore order, despite the "believes" of the other gueardians.

ThatHappyCat

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The Serpent has always been the odd one out, said to be made of "Unstars" (what the hell does that mean? Never explained anywhere), wandering the heavens and "threatening" the other constellations.

Sounds like Blackholes to me, you know that are dark and blots out stars (unstars) and threatens other Constellations (by consuming the stars in those constellations).

The cosmology of TES is different from the real world. Stars in TES are holes torn through the fabric of reality by the Magna-Ge, Aedric spirits that abandoned creation in the footsteps of Magnus the Architect (who tore the gigantic hole the denizens of Nirn call the "sun"), as they fled into Aetherius.

True, but there are numerous theories about stars/suns in the lore. That one is the most common one, but it fails to explain how the sun causes planets to orbit, or how it produces heat.

Which is why I mentioned blackholes, they fit, if you assume all the lore about stars and the sun is Religious Dogma, and they stars/suns use are like ours.

The Sun (Magnus) produces heat because of the huge amount of magicka streaming through it from Aetherius. And the Sun doesn't have anything to do with planets... Nirn is the centre of reality (the Mundus), all the other planets (or rather planes) are the "corpses" of the eight primary Aedra who gave of themselves to create Mundus, and they orbit Nirn.

And it isn't really "religious dogma" in the real world sense, not when you have physical "gods" in a world where science, religion and magic are pretty much the same thing. I also don't recall seeing any lore that presents an alternative theory for the origin and nature of the stars (presumably because there isn't one: Meridia for example was once a Magne-Ge, so she's pretty much "living" proof of this "theory").

Elsterchen

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I also don't recall seeing any lore that presents an alternative theory for the origin and nature of the stars.

Hmm, a bit offtopic, but I do somehow remeber that Akatosh (btw he is also called: the great serpent! ...) created the universe as well as the stars, just after creating "time". If I recall correctly, aedra are aspects of akatosh while daedra are not part of his world (which is really hard to understand as akatosh was the first and daedra have not been created by him as far as I understood, but entered our world forcefully... at least thats how my templar redguard would explain this matter ... but well, we all know redguard templars are known to be a bit odd *whispers* ... completely nuts ... )

ThatHappyCat

Aedra simply means "our ancestors", Daedra means "not our ancestors". The Aedra are the Et'Ada (spirits) that participated in the creation of Mundus (the mortal plane), the Daedra are Et'Ada that did not participate.

The origin of the "universe" (Aurbis) is less clear, but the basic idea is that it's the result of an interplay between Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Order/Stasis and Chaos/Change. The Et'Ada are born from their interplay.

Different cultures have different interpretations but the basic ideas generally don't change (very much).

AlexDougherty

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I also don't recall seeing any lore that presents an alternative theory for the origin and nature of the stars (presumably because there isn't one: Meridia for example was once a Magne-Ge, so she's pretty much "living" proof of this "theory").

I can't recall the details but I do remember reading alternate creation stories, they tend to be based on other Pantheons, and as such have their gods shaping/creating the stars and sun.

Pretty sure both Redguard and Skaal had alternate creation myths, and I think there are one or two from Khajiit myths (Just read on wiki that one of the two Khajiit originator deities(Fadomai) turned herself into the stars when she died).

But I do remember reading in both Oblivion and Skyrim books that outlined other theories about the stars.

Grao

I don't think we know about the story behind the champion system yet. Maybe those constellations are willing to help the people of Tamriel just isn't. The Serpent definitely isn't the nicest constellation... Or un-constellation?

Dracane

The serpent is a constellation and is very equal in strenght to the Mage, Warrior and Thief. But the serpent is so different.
The serpent is no part of the 12 constellations. Each month represents 1 sign and the serpent represents none. So it doesn't really affect the world.

The serpent appears from time to time and is the herald of chaos, agony and misfortune. It tends to appear at the sky, when dark forces menace the world. To the time of ESO, the serpent is represent and is dominating the sky at the moment. It makes sense, to not make the serpent available.

Since people that are born under the serpent (which happens rarely) are unpredictable and nobody was ever able to describe the aspects and nature of the serpent. So which passives should it give to us ? O.o Do you really think, ZoS is able to predict the nature of the serpent ?

Elsterchen

Hi there, and sorry for the late answer but I think the (practical) difficulties of implementing the serpent are not first priority. Just two examples:
1) The serpent could be a kind of overlaying/superimposed starsign - connected to all others (i.e. "threatening them" and as stated in the storyline "dominating" the sky). Points could be spend in the serpent, only if the connected star of the "threatened" constellation has been activated i.e. One star of the serpent is connected to one star of the mage constellation. Only when a player decides to unlock this mage-star the serpent-star will appear and the player can decide to invest in the serpent at the next possible turn.
- In this example the passives of the serpent could boost (mimick!) the connected constellation.
2) The serpent is treated like any other constellation BUT only available every 5th campionpoint (i.e. to account for its unsteady appearance). Currently it is possible to spend a CP in a warrior-constellation and then one has to spend 2CP in the other two constellations before beeing able to spend another point in the warrior constellation. In this example one may choose to spend the 5th CP in the serpent instead - either skipping the "normal" rotation or prolonging it.
- In this example the passives of the sepent could either mimick the passives of the serpent or be unique i.e. related to class-abilities, devensive abilities that counteract constellation passives (i.e. decrase target magica/health/stamina (-recovery/-usability) or even linked to werwolf and vampire traits.

In general I do not understand the unpredictable nature of serpent-born to be totally different from those born under any other constellation. To me it only means that serpent-born mimick abilities known to belong to those born in another constellation. (i.e. A warrior is known to have much health - and a serpent born with high health recovery rate may seem like a warrior)

Joejudas

Because the Mantikora troll stomped the Serpent and killed him.

Elsterchen

At what point of the craglorn storyline, did a manticora kill a starsign ? - At no point !

Please refrain from one-sentenced answers if u rushed through craglorn content and do not get the difference between a starsign / constellation and some NPC trying to gain the power of a celestial.

No Jokes pls, i am trying to be serious here ---> I just love my TES-lore and do not understand why its twisted to fit some numbers!

Joejudas

Elsterchen wrote: »

At what point of the craglorn storyline, did a manticora kill a starsign ? - At no point !

Please refrain from one-sentenced answers if u rushed through craglorn content and do not get the difference between a starsign / constellation and some NPC trying to gain the power of a celestial.

Dang I was only kidding. It was in reference to the Mantikora killing so many people. Sorry I offended you

Jaerlach

Elsterchen wrote: »

At what point of the craglorn storyline, did a manticora kill a starsign ? - At no point !

Please refrain from one-sentenced answers if u rushed through craglorn content and do not get the difference between a starsign / constellation and some NPC trying to gain the power of a celestial.

No Jokes pls, i am trying to be serious here ---> I just love my TES-lore and do not understand why its twisted to fit some numbers!

Have you completed any of the 3 trials, especially sanctum ophidia?

BBSooner

Ooo I'm seeing a future crown store opportunity!

thelordoffelines

Probably the same reason there was no shrine to mehrunes dagon with a quest in oblivion- he was the enemy. Here, the serpent is the enemy.

Sphinx2318

Someone stole my sweetroll.........And my constellation!!!!