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How to keep animation canceling, but fix it.
Qhival
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I would love to be able to react to animations in PVP, but since everyone cancels their animations it becomes a mind numbing canceling spam fest. It nullifies most of the interesting combat mechanics in the game like reactive blocking and bashing.
That being said, I do think there is a place for animation canceling. It's nice to be able to cancel an ability to react to another ability, but that circumstance never occurs in pvp because everyone spams animation canceling for dps purposes.
Here's what I think they need to do:
1. Remove animation canceling form everything except bash and block
2. Make bash and block both have an activation cost that depends on the ability you are canceling.
3. Alternatively they could just add a cancel-cast ability, but I think bash and block makes sense and the mechanic already exists for it.
4. Add an animation for canceling, because it just looks ridiculous and unimmersive the way it is.
5. Document it in-game so it's not completely obvious animation canceling wasn't intended.
The point is, there needs to a cost for animation canceling, and it needs to make sense.
Edited by Qhival on November 17, 2014 9:02PM That being said, I do think there is a place for animation canceling. It's nice to be able to cancel an ability to react to another ability, but that circumstance never occurs in pvp because everyone spams animation canceling for dps purposes.
Here's what I think they need to do:
1. Remove animation canceling form everything except bash and block
2. Make bash and block both have an activation cost that depends on the ability you are canceling.
3. Alternatively they could just add a cancel-cast ability, but I think bash and block makes sense and the mechanic already exists for it.
4. Add an animation for canceling, because it just looks ridiculous and unimmersive the way it is.
5. Document it in-game so it's not completely obvious animation canceling wasn't intended.
The point is, there needs to a cost for animation canceling, and it needs to make sense.
-Archival -Templar, NA
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think this is a terrible idea. I do not think everyone constantly light attack weaves in PVP. Light attack weaving drops your block momentarily while just animation canceling with block allows you to have it up 100% of the time. The choice you make in PVP whether to light attack weave or just animation cancel with block is an important decision and makes the game deeper. Light attack weaving in PVE is the only layer of depth for manual input that the game has so I think it is great. Basically, your argument is wrong and you should stop thinking what you think.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points7 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why do people think Animation Canceling is Wrong?
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"6 -
MrGhosty✭✭✭✭✭I don't think animation cancelling is bad, when it is a mechanic that can be taken advantage of without requiring the skill to use it, I have issues the fact of using it is a skill and skill should always be rewarded. I do wish there was some sort of indicator that showed you when you or another player animation canceled though. I want this more for diagnostic reasons than immersion, if I'm seeing dmg output I don't understand I would rather have more information to tell me why this happened than just assume it is evil/cheating/etc."It is a time of strife and unrest. Armies of revenants and dark spirits manifest in every corner of Tamriel. Winters grow colder and crops fail. Mystics are plagued by nightmares and portents of doom."0 -
Qhival✭✭✭Why do people think Animation Canceling is Wrong?
The biggest reason for me is not being able to see what people are doing in PVP. I can't react or do something in response to something I never see the animation for. You shouldnt be able to hide your abilities and moves AND benefit from higher DPS for doing so.Edited by Qhival on November 17, 2014 7:33PM-Archival -Templar, NA0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why do people think Animation Canceling is Wrong?
The biggest reason for me is not being able to see what people are doing in PVP. I can't react or do something in response to something I never see the animation for. You shouldnt be able to hide your abilities and moves AND benefit from higher DPS for doing so.
Could you be more specific?
What are you having trouble seeing or reacting to?1 -
Qhival✭✭✭
well, lets start with the most basic.Why do people think Animation Canceling is Wrong?
The biggest reason for me is not being able to see what people are doing in PVP. I can't react or do something in response to something I never see the animation for. You shouldnt be able to hide your abilities and moves AND benefit from higher DPS for doing so.
Could you be more specific?
What are you having trouble seeing or reacting to?
hold down attack then instantly block, but keep holding your attack button. you can even cast other abilities or do whatever while your heavy attack is still charging. Will the enemy block? no, because he doesn't see it.-Archival -Templar, NA1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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well, lets start with the most basic.Why do people think Animation Canceling is Wrong?
The biggest reason for me is not being able to see what people are doing in PVP. I can't react or do something in response to something I never see the animation for. You shouldnt be able to hide your abilities and moves AND benefit from higher DPS for doing so.
Could you be more specific?
What are you having trouble seeing or reacting to?
hold down attack then instantly block, but keep holding your attack button. you can even cast other abilities or do whatever while your heavy attack is still charging. Will the enemy block? no, because he doesn't see it.
You said you were having trouble seeing what your enemies are casting.
I asked if you could give some examples. I know how animation cancelling works, I'm the one who explained to you that it was intended for the abilities to interact that way.
When your enemies use animation cancelling, you should still know what they are casting at you. If I cancel Crushing Shock on you, you still see the beam coming at you. Likewise, if I cancel Lava Whip, you still see the fiery whip animation.
What abilities are you talking about that you're having trouble seeing?1 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
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The biggest reason for me is not being able to see what people are doing in PVP. I can't react or do something in response to something I never see the animation for. You shouldnt be able to hide your abilities and moves AND benefit from higher DPS for doing so.
OK, but at this point, isn't it expected to happen? I mean this is not an exploit per say, but something any character can do. Yes, the lack of visual cues can be a detriment, but if you plan for it, can't you counter it?
I would also think this would be more an issue in 1 on 1 than in some of those large keep type battles. But I don't spend any time in PvP so not privy to all the techniques there.
Edited by Nestor on November 17, 2014 8:09PMEnjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"0 -
Qhival✭✭✭When your enemies use animation cancelling, you should still know what they are casting at you. If I cancel Crushing Shock on you, you still see the beam coming at you. Likewise, if I cancel Lava Whip, you still see the fiery whip animation.
actually with perfect timing you can avoid the animation completely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZa4c-WZoE
skip to 2:25, as you he casts, the animation simply doesn't happen at all. You can see the particle aftereffects, but the ability is finished at that point.
Now if someone were not animation canceling, you could see and interrupt them with a stun, knockback, snare etc. You wouldn't want or need to interrupt the moves show int he video above, but you get the point.
blazing shield for example. If i see someone cast that, i would take my time and use my bow knockback. but when they animation cancel it, they could pop it as fast as im executing another move right in their face and pay the price for it.
add lag and latency differences and not seeing the animation occurs very often.Edited by Qhival on November 17, 2014 8:30PM-Archival -Templar, NA1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭blazing shield for example. If i see someone cast that, i would take my time and use my bow knockback. but when they animation cancel it, they could pop it as fast as im executing another move right in their face and pay the price for it.
But you're the one who has control over the Blazing Shield effect disappearing, not your opponent...
What you described could happen w/out animation cancelling just as easily as w/ it.0 -
Qhival✭✭✭blazing shield for example. If i see someone cast that, i would take my time and use my bow knockback. but when they animation cancel it, they could pop it as fast as im executing another move right in their face and pay the price for it.
But you're the one who has control over the Blazing Shield effect disappearing, not your opponent...
What you described could happen w/out animation cancelling just as easily as w/ it.
the animation of blazing shield is quite long, and you would have time to not hit that next attack that would pop his bubble if you saw the casting animation.
I think you are misunderstanding what im saying. Yes you can see the animation, but not the cast animation. You only see the end effects/ particles if you cancel correctly.
So you see what your opponent has done, rather than what he is doing. making the game more about yourself and what you are doing, ratehr than what your opponent is doing. So the game becomes a series of rotations rather then ingenuity and adaptation.
Perhaps i've played too many strategic games to be content with nothing but "timing"
I want to outsmart and outplay my oppenent, not out click and out-time them. I might as well play starcraft if I want to do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q Edited by Qhival on November 17, 2014 8:41PM-Archival -Templar, NA0 -
Xjcon✭✭✭✭✭Until they fix this I think I'm going to buy that mouse.... why not have the advantage over the people who don't have it......Briza Do'urdenx V16 Dunmer DK
Jcon V16 Orc DK
Vierna Do'urdenx V16 Bosmer NB
Jarlaxle Baenrex V16 Dunmer NB0 -
Qhival✭✭✭Until they fix this I think I'm going to buy that mouse.... why not have the advantage over the people who don't have it......
and that's why animation canceling is a problem. Even if you believe it's intended, it's too easy to exploit.Edited by Qhival on November 17, 2014 8:47PM-Archival -Templar, NA1 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
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No because I will out-animation cancel you doing it by hand if you're using a macro in 99% of situations where you are actually trying to squeeze out every bit of DPS. I've tried quite a few different combinations for a light attack weaved crushing shock macro and even by myself in a PVE zone, occasionally the timing still gets off somehow. The game, with it's animation cycles (think recovery time) for your light/heavy weapon attacks and abilities being different makes it very clunky. The only way to get a perfect light attack weave every time is to recognize your own light attack animation for the particular weapon you are using and know when to active abilities based upon that animation.When your enemies use animation cancelling, you should still know what they are casting at you. If I cancel Crushing Shock on you, you still see the beam coming at you. Likewise, if I cancel Lava Whip, you still see the fiery whip animation.
actually with perfect timing you can avoid the animation completely.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZa4c-WZoE
skip to 2:25, as you he casts, the animation simply doesn't happen at all. You can see the particle aftereffects, but the ability is finished at that point.
Now if someone were not animation canceling, you could see and interrupt them with a stun, knockback, snare etc. You wouldn't want or need to interrupt the moves show int he video above, but you get the point.
blazing shield for example. If i see someone cast that, i would take my time and use my bow knockback. but when they animation cancel it, they could pop it as fast as im executing another move right in their face and pay the price for it.
add lag and latency differences and not seeing the animation occurs very often.
He is animation canceling an instant ability at 2:25 so no you could not interrupt it or do anything about it if he didn't animation cancel because you see the particle effect at the same time you would without the cancel.
Edited by Erock25 on November 17, 2014 9:20PMYou earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points1 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
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He is animation canceling an instant ability at 2:25 so no you could not interrupt it or do anything about it if he didn't animation cancel because you see the particle effect at the same time you would without the cancel.
That's with a Macro programmed into his mouse, so that's against TOS. Aren't they supposed to kick people like this from the game? Could a player reasonably be expected to be able to this manually this quickly?
Note I am asking to gain understanding on this, as I am trying to understand the scope of the problem. I know when I do the animation canceling in PvE, you can see both parts of my attack quite clearly. Well the Force Shock does kind of jump out from the Heavy or Light attack, but it's not instant like the macro makes it.
Help a PvE'r understand the plight of the PvP'r.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The stuff in that video is cheating for me. Dont do it guys. Dont be that guy.0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
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He is animation canceling an instant ability at 2:25 so no you could not interrupt it or do anything about it if he didn't animation cancel because you see the particle effect at the same time you would without the cancel.
That's with a Macro programmed into his mouse, so that's against TOS. Aren't they supposed to kick people like this from the game? Could a player reasonably be expected to be able to this manually this quickly?
Note I am asking to gain understanding on this, as I am trying to understand the scope of the problem. I know when I do the animation canceling in PvE, you can see both parts of my attack quite clearly. Well the Force Shock does kind of jump out from the Heavy or Light attack, but it's not instant like the macro makes it.
Help a PvE'r understand the plight of the PvP'r.
You can easily reproduce what was in that video by hand if you have your keybinds set up right. It is weapon swap -> block (this block may be optional)-> ability -> block -> weapon swap. Very easy to do just what is shown on that video and soooo much more reliable doing it by hand unless you are alone in a PVE zone not attacking anything.
I'm not sure of ZOS actually language about the validity of macros. I would assume that the only thing that breaks the terms of service is a macro that would automate something that could be run on a loop without any input from yourself. I would think combining four button presses into one macro'd button that you have to actively use is not against the terms of service, but I don't care anyways since I don't use them.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I always thought it would be cheating even against the NPCs, to use Macros. I even have a keyboard and mouse (Razor) that could do it, but I don't have the software installed. I should though as it would let me at least disable the Caps Lock so I don't yell in group chat.....Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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He is animation canceling an instant ability at 2:25 so no you could not interrupt it or do anything about it if he didn't animation cancel because you see the particle effect at the same time you would without the cancel.
That's with a Macro programmed into his mouse, so that's against TOS. Aren't they supposed to kick people like this from the game? Could a player reasonably be expected to be able to this manually this quickly?
Note I am asking to gain understanding on this, as I am trying to understand the scope of the problem. I know when I do the animation canceling in PvE, you can see both parts of my attack quite clearly. Well the Force Shock does kind of jump out from the Heavy or Light attack, but it's not instant like the macro makes it.
Help a PvE'r understand the plight of the PvP'r.
You can easily reproduce what was in that video by hand if you have your keybinds set up right. It is weapon swap -> block (this block may be optional)-> ability -> block -> weapon swap. Very easy to do just what is shown on that video and soooo much more reliable doing it by hand unless you are alone in a PVE zone not attacking anything.
I'm not sure of ZOS actually language about the validity of macros. I would assume that the only thing that breaks the terms of service is a macro that would automate something that could be run on a loop without any input from yourself. I would think combining four button presses into one macro'd button that you have to actively use is not against the terms of service, but I don't care anyways since I don't use them.
They said specifically that macroing animation cancelling is exploiting, though animation cancelling by itself is not.0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
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He is animation canceling an instant ability at 2:25 so no you could not interrupt it or do anything about it if he didn't animation cancel because you see the particle effect at the same time you would without the cancel.
That's with a Macro programmed into his mouse, so that's against TOS. Aren't they supposed to kick people like this from the game? Could a player reasonably be expected to be able to this manually this quickly?
Note I am asking to gain understanding on this, as I am trying to understand the scope of the problem. I know when I do the animation canceling in PvE, you can see both parts of my attack quite clearly. Well the Force Shock does kind of jump out from the Heavy or Light attack, but it's not instant like the macro makes it.
Help a PvE'r understand the plight of the PvP'r.
You can easily reproduce what was in that video by hand if you have your keybinds set up right. It is weapon swap -> block (this block may be optional)-> ability -> block -> weapon swap. Very easy to do just what is shown on that video and soooo much more reliable doing it by hand unless you are alone in a PVE zone not attacking anything.
I'm not sure of ZOS actually language about the validity of macros. I would assume that the only thing that breaks the terms of service is a macro that would automate something that could be run on a loop without any input from yourself. I would think combining four button presses into one macro'd button that you have to actively use is not against the terms of service, but I don't care anyways since I don't use them.
They said specifically that macroing animation cancelling is exploiting, though animation cancelling by itself is not.
Where did they mention that?You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Where did they mention that?
The last guild summit:
"Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future."
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