Mandatory Group Dungeon Scaling Messes Over Players

oy2001

Mandatory group dungeon scaling messes over me and my friends who happily pay for this otherwise excellent game. Why? Because we roll with small groups of real-life friends who don't like to optimize but who do want to have a great time playing a co-op game. We do not want a game that punishes us for having a chill time in our own instance where we aren't bothering anyone or taking away from their experience.

I mostly play with my wife. Duo is the perfect power level for us: roaming the overland areas with a backup means world bosses are tough-but-survivable, trash mobs are trash, and Dark Anchors are a legit challenge. Delves are just about right, with a partner who can back you up when the bosses get in those lucky hits. But group dungeons are now completely impossible with the mandatory scaling. That awesome time we had going back to Fungal Grotto every 5 levels, again and again, gaining in confidence and skill each time, just to see when we could finally get high enough level to make it through to the end with just two players? We can say goodbye to that and I can say goodbye to getting a chance to level up my Undaunted so that I can get some of those sweet group skills I've been looking forward to.

We played DDO for years because they did dungeon scaling right: giving you a choice of how hard you wanted it to be, and you traded ease for worse loot and less XP. Give us a choice, ZOS. You know, like we were adults.

Vyle_Byte

My husband and I are in the same boat. We play as a duo, because that's the way we like to play, and scaling makes it impossible for us to do these now. Where as before it was a fun challenge to see if we could get through it. Which is a shame because there are quite a few we've not done yet, kicking ourselves in the butt for not getting them in before scaling hit.

All we ask for is options and we know that is not impossible. Really don't care about the loot and xp for them, its all about the experience for us.

Syntse

I'm playing with my wife too but have no issue with scaling Group dungeons, personally I like them to bring the challenge on level and greatly increases replayability. Though we have guild where we find similar people and can group with to do the group dungeons in group. We have been running plenty of daily undaunted pledges for normal group dungeons lately.

Vyle_Byte

I think, the point really is this: we who do not enjoy grouping had the option to do these dungeons before and this option has been taken away from us. Forcing people to group who don't want to does one thing, takes content away from them. Because honestly, those people, myself included just wont do it.

They gave us something, and then they took it from us by trying to force it upon us. I honestly don't mind the scaling for others, I get its for replay-ability, but there is no reason on the face of Tamriel we couldn't have an option. Then, everyone is happy and we feel ZOS keeps its promise of Play How You Want.

Just my 2 cents

redspecter23

I like the idea in theory. It keeps the content relevant as you level up. However, it should be optional. If I want to go back to a level 12 group dungeon on my V14 and stomp the crap out of it, I should be able to.

In fact, I am able to do that. I just need a low level leader in my party to remove the dungeon scaling. This right here is the reason why it should be optional... because it already is if you're willing to jump through hoops to do it. We actually have the ability to keep the dungeons at their original intended level but only if we find a lowbie to group with us before stepping in. Why not remove that barrier and just make it optional upon entry.

xaraan

Though I agree that they need to fine tune their scaling, you are talking about trying to duo 4-man content, it should be really hard to do so, if not impossible. I don't think them allowing an optional switch to turn off scaling is a bad thing (though they should disable boss head drops when someone turns off scaling IMO).

david.haypreub18_ESO

I am in the same boat as OP. I roll with a buddy, occasionally two; but it is rare we can get four. Now we can't do dungeons anymore.

There has to be a better way to figure this out (like what DDO did).

timidobserver

I am all for nerfing the rewards and difficulty and calling it explorer mode or something cheesy like that and giving casuals a mode that they can enjoy. I like the hard content, but at the end of the day, casuals make up a large portion of the player base and the game needs them.

Amsel_McKay

timidobserver wrote: »

I am all for nerfing the rewards and difficulty and calling it explorer mode or something cheesy like that and giving casuals a mode that they can enjoy. I like the hard content, but at the end of the day, casuals make up a large portion of the player base and the game needs them.

I agree... a MMO is different in everyones mind. I like to solo in MMOs and if I feel up to it on the weekends I may take the time to find a group and play some group stuff...

My wife plays, but she has a super low level and I have my duo char that I only play when she is on. Now we cant play dungeons unless we find two other players... who will hate her because she does not play very well.

My son who is 9 played a lot and has a VR11, but I will not allow him to group or team speak because he is 9... in the past I would group up and duo with him in dungeons.

most of this has changed because of the updates. My son has stopped playing because he finished silver and gold and does not like PvP. My wife stopped playing because she cant "finish" a zone without a group.

I'm still playing because I like the game and its fun to have alts, but what I have noticed is I have not grouped in a long time and now i will not even try to group up because the group tool does not work and when i take 2 hours to get a group and they wipe once and split up its frustrating.

Syntse

I can understand the bad feeling about first having something and then it is taken away. But we are talking about _Group_ dungeons after all and they were never meant to be soloed. One can still over level public dungeon and run it through blasting pulsar for the feeling of power.

Next thing is to be able to solo trials when the group dungeons get old?

Amsel_McKay

Syntse wrote: »

I can understand the bad feeling about first having something and then it is taken away. But we are talking about _Group_ dungeons after all and they were never meant to be soloed. One can still over level public dungeon and run it through blasting pulsar for the feeling of power.

Next thing is to be able to solo trials when the group dungeons get old?

Why not have solo trials? sounds amazing!

guybrushtb16_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

I am all for nerfing the rewards and difficulty and calling it explorer mode or something cheesy like that and giving casuals a mode that they can enjoy. I like the hard content, but at the end of the day, casuals make up a large portion of the player base and the game needs them.

Agreed. To me it seems they tried to strike a balance between too hard and too easy, but personally I think that can never happen. Either the casuals will cry because they can't do it, or the hardcore crowd will get bored and leave, IMO adustable difficulty settings with scaled rewards (and NOT inferior versions for easy mode, more like less tokens or a chance to upgrade rewards so they are not completely useless next to hardcore stuff) would help.

Valen_Byte

xaraan wrote: »

Though I agree that they need to fine tune their scaling, you are talking about trying to duo 4-man content, it should be really hard to do so, if not impossible. I don't think them allowing an optional switch to turn off scaling is a bad thing (though they should disable boss head drops when someone turns off scaling IMO).

I agree, if you out lvl a Dung. then you shouldnt get drops or xp. I dont think that is really a concern. I dont care at all about the drops or xp. I want the achievement.

Vyle_Byte

It has absolutely nothing to do with "the feeling of power". Absolutely nothing. Its about being able to do the content that they've given us, it doesn't matter that they were "made" for a group of four if it was possible to actually do them with less than. Which is FUN. They took our fun. That's my point.

I don't think the sarcasm about trails was necessary, I don't ever expect to be able to do those nor do I care, b/c I know a duo could never possibly do something made for 12.

No one is asking for a roll back, no one is saying you cant do your group thing, no one is technically "whining". We all have a right to our opinion as we ALL pay to play this game.

The more they take away from those who don't wish to group with a bunch of people, the less we have to do, the more likely we are to get bored and go find something else to occupy our time. I love this game, I want to continue playing it for a long time to come.

Just give us options.

Nebthet78

I agree, the dungeon scaling needs to be optional. Prior to the patch, if I wanted something slightly different to do, especially when in Vet levels, I would keep an eye on chat to see if someone was looking to group up to do the Public or Group dungeons.

Most of the time, a player was only able to find 1 or 2 other people to group with him, so we would try the dungeon with the 2-3 man party.

I actually found I had much more fun when doing this dungeons with just 1 more player so that we were doing them as a duo. It was more relaxed, we both ensured the other was good. It was easier to communicate (For those like me who don't have Teamspeak). I also found that we complimented and supported each other's fighting style much much better, as you actually thought about how to tackle the bosses and what was needed. This experience was more laid-back, thought out and fun.

In the 3-4 man groups, I actually found it to be nothing more than a spam fest. You were basically playing keep up with the member who wanted to rush through everything and didn't want to wait for the rest of the group. Strategy wasn't thought about as much because you were just trying to get enough hits in to get some loot when the boss died so you didn't have to do it again. The whole experience felt rushed and wasn't nearly as enjoyable, and often one or more group members would actually miss a step in the quest completion and they would then be left hanging to finish it on their own or waiting for another group.

Additionally, sometimes you just want the experience the story and the environment of a dungeon instead of having any real challenge, especially if you are not feeling well, or having a really bad day. Sometimes it is just extremely satisfying to one hit kill an entire dungeon, just because.

I don't think forcing players to do things a certain way or at a certain level is the way to take things for this game. Elder Scrolls games were always about Options and letting the players decide when to do things and how. The more you take this away from the player base the more this game becomes a cookie cutter MMO and less and less like an Elder Scrolls style game.

Audigy

In my opinion, dungeons should somehow scale to the players level but they should also scale on the amount of players inside.

Syntse

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

It has absolutely nothing to do with "the feeling of power". Absolutely nothing. Its about being able to do the content that they've given us, it doesn't matter that they were "made" for a group of four if it was possible to actually do them with less than. Which is FUN. They took our fun. That's my point.

I don't think the sarcasm about trails was necessary, I don't ever expect to be able to do those nor do I care, b/c I know a duo could never possibly do something made for 12.

Someone else was saying they like to go run there over level feeling powered. Well if they at some point throw in switch for scaled/non-scaled I'm not against that. Some of the dungeons most likely are possible still to do with 2 persons even scaled, not super easy but could be done and will take time. I've run few of them with group of 3, last being city of ash which was easy but took time to down the bosses because of their health pool.

Well you expect to 1-2 man 4 man dungeon but think you never can do possibly 12 man dungeon. With same theory thinking maybe 12 man dungeon should be doable with group of 4-6. Maybe in the first place should think that 1-2 manning 4 man dungeon should not be possible. Well it was because of over leveling. And I've done my share of 1 manning the dungeons for achievements.

Issue seems to be that they were not scaled from the beginning and people got the goodies of doing those alone before scaling, now that was taken away. None of this would be even under debate if they would have been group only content from the beginning. People would just think well this is MMO and grouped people should have their content too.

Aoife32001

I just duo with my brother and we got screwed over too with this change. It's unfortunate.

Vyle_Byte

Syntse wrote: »

Issue seems to be that they were not scaled from the beginning and people got the goodies of doing those alone before scaling, now that was taken away. None of this would be even under debate if they would have been group only content from the beginning. People would just think well this is MMO and grouped people should have their content too.

^^ This is exactly right. For 6 months its been one way, and now its another. Sure, if they made it so that you could only go in the dungeon if you had 4 people... from the very beginning then no one would be complaining. Actually they would... but I wouldn't 'expect' to be able to do it.

Also, there is plenty of group content. Plenty. All of Crag, pretty much group only. And just b/c its an MMO doesn't constitute the forced grouping. Just means there are a mass of players online together. Its an MMO not a MGO. Just sayin.

I'm not here to argue any one else's play style. Just sucks monkey *** they took it to this level of forcing.

Sprinkles28

My wife and I also play together, but even so, I can't agree with the OP. I think it is far more beneficial to the community as a whole to have the dungeons scale than not. This is not just a multiplayer game, like a co-op xbox game, it's a mass multiplayer. There should be content that is only available for larger groups.

I could see scaling being an issue if and only if the dungeons were so overly hard that 4 players at level wiped over and over again. As it stands, these dungeons are very easy even scaled.

SteveCampsOut

xaraan wrote: »

Though I agree that they need to fine tune their scaling, you are talking about trying to duo 4-man content, it should be really hard to do so, if not impossible. I don't think them allowing an optional switch to turn off scaling is a bad thing (though they should disable boss head drops when someone turns off scaling IMO).

Your argument is invalid! 4-man content is an illusionary construct. Unless it actually requires 4 bodies to perform 4 simultaneous actions like standing on plates or turning 4 keys on 4 different walls, It doesn't exist.

What you have are encounters of a certain difficulty, those encounters should be able to be done by anyone who has improved themselves to the point where they can handle it.

Elitists do it with physical dexterity and skill and casuals and solo players do it by out leveling the content and gaining more skillsets that they need to complete the encounters.

Taking that away from people is just that. It's Taking It Away. It's not making them better it's excluding them plain and simple, from what they paid real money and time to do.

nerevarine1138

Can someone please explain to me why any game developer should be taken to task for not designing their group dungeons to be completed by one or two people?

I could understand if you were upset because you were unable to complete content at its intended level with a full group of four (I'd probably offer playstyle advice at that point, but I'd at least understand). I do not understand why not being able to complete content in a completely unintended way is a developer issue.

KenjiJU

A few bosses need tweaks to hp and general fixes. Annnnd.. mechanics could be a bit better suited so as not to screw over general Stamina dps builds. Taking casters is almost always 5x easier than with a Stamina build dps, and good luck with two Stamina dps.

Ysne58

I vote for optional scaling.

Syntse

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Also, there is plenty of group content. Plenty. All of Crag, pretty much group only. And just b/c its an MMO doesn't constitute the forced grouping. Just means there are a mass of players online together. Its an MMO not a MGO. Just sayin.

Just mentioning in the case that it in deed is Multiplayer Online which means there are multiple people online at the same time, some them run solo and some grouped. And there needs to be content that satisfy both.

Miyamoto

All of these dungeons can still be completed by duos, on level, without much issue. I really don't know what all the complaints are about.

When you see big red circles/triangles, move out of them. When you see red/yellow DBZ-style charging animations on an enemy who's winding up for 45 minutes, interrupt or block. Get some decent, on level, role-appropriate gear (crafted set pieces make a big difference and require very little effort/time investment considering 2/3/4 trait sets are some of the better ones). Join your faction's buff pvp campaign, for more (free) stat boosts. Watch a few video guides, and figure out what it is you're doing wrong, then work on fixing that.

Wouldn't you rather get better than stay at the same skill level for as long as you play?

TehMagnus

oy2001 wrote: »

Mandatory group dungeon scaling messes over me and my friends who happily pay for this otherwise excellent game. Why? Because we roll with small groups of real-life friends who don't like to optimize but who do want to have a great time playing a co-op game. We do not want a game that punishes us for having a chill time in our own instance where we aren't bothering anyone or taking away from their experience.

I mostly play with my wife. Duo is the perfect power level for us: roaming the overland areas with a backup means world bosses are tough-but-survivable, trash mobs are trash, and Dark Anchors are a legit challenge. Delves are just about right, with a partner who can back you up when the bosses get in those lucky hits. But group dungeons are now completely impossible with the mandatory scaling. That awesome time we had going back to Fungal Grotto every 5 levels, again and again, gaining in confidence and skill each time, just to see when we could finally get high enough level to make it through to the end with just two players? We can say goodbye to that and I can say goodbye to getting a chance to level up my Undaunted so that I can get some of those sweet group skills I've been looking forward to.

We played DDO for years because they did dungeon scaling right: giving you a choice of how hard you wanted it to be, and you traded ease for worse loot and less XP. Give us a choice, ZOS. You know, like we were adults.

The 4man dungeons are designed for: 4 players. You can't expect them to take into consideration the fact that people want to 2man the dungeons. Moreover devs present in the guild meeting stated they didn't want people being able to 2man dungeons anymore, so if you can't do it, I guess they did their job well (and I'm pretty sure some dungeons can still technically be 2maned by 2 skilled players.

Nothing keeps you from asking a low level to invite you to group & enter dungeon, then have him leave so you can't play the game the way it's not supposed to be played.

adriant1978

magnusnet wrote: »

Moreover devs present in the guild meeting stated they didn't want people being able to 2man dungeons anymore, so if you can't do it, I guess they did their job well.

If this is true, I think it's pretty mean-spirited. I don't see how me and my friend over-levelling and duo'ing these things was hurting the experience for hardcore raiders who want to do them on or below level with the "correct" number of people. We got no XP or loot from the mobs and a final quest reward tens of levels too low to be useful; we just did them for fun and the story.

Elloa

I would not mind Zenimax to make the scaling Dungeon optional (with no loot) for players that just want to be tourist in a Dungeon. It would only add more possible activities. And as we are at it, make it so we can re-do the story quest (without reward) as much as we want.

But remember that Dungeons was not intented for vacation, but to face a challenge, to experiment fights and to have to teamwork to be able to overcome it.

The Dungeon Scaling is GREAT for every players that enjoy those dungeons and enjoy a challenge. Instead of not being able to re-do those dungeon because we overlevel it and its way too easy, now we can always face the same difficulty, no matter our level. Players, have access to a dozen of Dungeon instead of the three of their levels.

Now, while you are leveling, the Dungeon Scaling is quite easy. So if you are not Veteran yet, you should be able to duo it without too much trouble. Of course, it will require you to be a minimum awake.
Once you hit Veteran, the difficulty will be normal, and you will need a group.

nerevarine1138

adriant1978 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Moreover devs present in the guild meeting stated they didn't want people being able to 2man dungeons anymore, so if you can't do it, I guess they did their job well.

If this is true, I think it's pretty mean-spirited. I don't see how me and my friend over-levelling and duo'ing these things was hurting the experience for hardcore raiders who want to do them on or below level with the "correct" number of people. We got no XP or loot from the mobs and a final quest reward tens of levels too low to be useful; we just did them for fun and the story.

How is that mean-spirited?

The dungeons were designed, from the beginning, for groups of four people. The developers never intended for them to be beaten by any less than that, regardless of how much you overlevel the content (they also didn't intend for you to clear dungeons after grossly overleveling them either, but we'll ignore tha for now).

You can still do dungeons for the fun and the story (the same reason many people did them prior to scaling), but now you'll have to actually do them with a full group. Surely you and your friend can stand the addition of two more people.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

yeah...okay... so heres how it works... you get a patsy of whatever level gets you a dungeon you like. then you make them leader and start the instance. once the instance is set have them leave. boom you got easy mode instance.