Is Templar Magicka Management issue considered fixed?

AlienPrimate

rotiferuk wrote: »

Magicka regen? ROFLMHO. Templars are already capable of speeding up Health / Stamina regen and purging themselves of up to two effects. An "I Win" button would be greedy.

*5 effects

stumpy999

I have around 2500 magika and run dry a fair bit, I prefer biting jabs over puncturing sweep and it's fine for pve content. However the poor ultimates and the cost of anything other than rank1 aedric spear really hurts.

I found the Templar, as-is , the easiest class to pve level. Lot's of glowy stick and almost nothing else.

However that doesn't mean that the resource management issue isn't still there, I believe it is. Further it has the weakest ultimates going. This doesn't mean it's bad, or not functional, it just means it remains unbalanced compared to the other classes.

gr3uce4nub16_ESO

Learn to play, templars are OP.

Tankqull

Soulshine wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

If you want to understand the issue play a v14 well geared Templar, NB, and Sorc. Note the difference in magicka management options.

I have been playing a Templar since beta and am well versed in the problem. I asked about gear on this class not others since how others manage magicka, which I am also versed in is not the issue being discussed.

It is the issue being discussed, because the Templars need to be balanced against them. Sorcs in particular have better mana management options, and the Templar spells tend to cost more relative to the other classes' ones, and this extends even (in fact especially) to ultimates (compare Standard versus Nova). The Templar ultimates are commonly reckoned the worst in the game.

Templar magicka management needs to be balanced relative the the skills of the class itself and how these are meant used, and of these which are the most effective for the job at hand for a particular build. To ask that they be balanced relavtive to any other class's job and abilities is not the point as I see it, and would do a disservice to our class.

well the problem is thanks to our mana management other classes can do our jobs aswell but still be able to do additional jobs while we cant as we have to juggle our resources to even full fullfill our role.
so balancing does have to happen allways with the options of other classes in mind.

Tankqull

AlienPrimate wrote: »

• 150% healing effectiveness
  5 from resto staff, 15 from restoring focus, and 30 from focused healing which some argue is worthless because you have to move, but with the healing that I receive, I don't ever have to move while soloing
• I use quick siphon on enemies with a lot of hp which heals me for 58 HP per hit on that enemy.
• Puncturing sweep heals for 40% of damage dealt and hits all enemies in front 4 times.
  Deals 529 damage to 1 enemy and 252 to all others. Assuming that 1 hit of the 4 procs burning light, that would make it 909 and 433 damage.

TEMPLAR IS OP, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT MAGICKA MANAGEMENT
Let us do the healing math for hp gained over the 1.1 second cast time of puncturing sweep:
1 enemy=893 (909*0.4+58*4)*1.5
Each additional enemy is 608 more hp (433*0.4+58*4)*1.5
2 enemies=1501
3 enemies=2109

With just 3 enemies, I heal more than my full HP over the cast time of puncturing sweep.

there are multiple problems with your assumptions.
1. focused healing only affects heals done by the mentioned ability and thus doesent effect puncturiong stike heals.
2. burning light procs are not included into the PS dmg and thus do not effect its healing output

beside that i don´t disagree - as long as i´m not onehitted on my templar in pve i can solo every pve boss.
but thats not the issue here other classes can do that aswell.

the issue is the magica management and we are fare behind everybody else in this regard
[as a metaphor for the "problem"

Tankqull

starkerealm wrote: »

JLB wrote: »

AlienPrimate wrote: »

I almost never die in PVE while I go around soloing dolmens, public dungeons, and world bosses

Yeah, Templars are OP because they can solo dumbed down landscape mobs and leveling content.
Now do yourself a favor, get to V14 and do some serious content and don't clown around with your huge class' experience.

"...because playing the game is irrelevant! Spamming Impulse is the only true test of your ability to play!"

no but solo pve is only a small part of the game - where we can play as effective as any other class, but the moment you are heading to other game parts the magaica managment issues do start to kick in...

dodgehopper_ESO

Like many things, the issue becomes more noticeable if you're wearing heavy armor vs. light armor (and this is true for every class). They really need to get back to the drawing board on armors. Its entirely stupid that a cloth wearing staff wielder is vastly tougher than most heavy armor shield wearers in most cases. Of course your bosmer in light armor and staff with magus/seducer/warlock type sets can go on forever. All you have to do is spam blazing shield. Try that on sets/armors intended for the warrior and you'll just die. That's the problem with the game right now. Heavy Armor stinks, and will always stink if they don't change it. The spell resist from light armor never goes away with armor degradation. The magicka regen doesn't go away. What does heavy armor get? A boost to armor that quickly degrades (even if you don't die), and a laughable .15% magicka return on hits against you (seriously this isn't even noticeable). Sure, you can hold your shield longer, but that isn't as effective as Immovable/Blazing/hardened ward/Annulment/bone shield etc.
Additionally, as a Templar quite a few or your best abilities can't be used while holding the shield up. At least my shield wearing sorc can spam lightning or crystal shards or the like.

The issue is really that magicka is just too damn good in this game. I love it, but it still needs rebalancing. Either that or I need to realize that for dungeons I need to wear 5/2 heavy/light and for pvp just go robes and shield/staff like everyone else.

starkerealm

Tankqull wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

JLB wrote: »

AlienPrimate wrote: »

I almost never die in PVE while I go around soloing dolmens, public dungeons, and world bosses

Yeah, Templars are OP because they can solo dumbed down landscape mobs and leveling content.
Now do yourself a favor, get to V14 and do some serious content and don't clown around with your huge class' experience.

"...because playing the game is irrelevant! Spamming Impulse is the only true test of your ability to play!"

no but solo pve is only a small part of the game - where we can play as effective as any other class, but the moment you are heading to other game parts the magaica managment issues do start to kick in...

Sarcasm aside, no, you can start to see the magicka management issues kicking in as early as level 5 or 6. It doesn't become apparent how bad it will be until much later, that part I get, but the first hints of a problem come in very early.

Also, Solo PvE is a huge part of the game, at least by volume. There are two zones that are group content focused. There is one PvP zone. There are 16 full PvE zones, 96 single player PvE dungeons, compared to the 32 group dungeons, 16 for PUGs and informal groups, and 16 for formal operations (not counting the ones in the Craglorns).

While the VR11-14 content is all group based, the bulk of the game is built around the idea of solo play with optional grouping.

Now, saying, "as a group player, I need a unique set of skills a solo player doesn't," is fair. But, the same thing is true of solo players, and PvPers. Your skills don't cross over into either of their areas of expertise, unless you've actually gone out there to learn their side of things. Which, as a group focused player, you didn't need to.

Tankqull

@‌starkrealm
ok we are not that far from each other as i thought after your sarcasmic statement
as long as we can agree that magica management is an issue in every game espect in a more or less hindering way i´m fine

starkerealm

Tankqull wrote: »

@‌starkrealm
ok we are not that far from each other as i thought after your sarcasmic statement
as long as we can agree that magica management is an issue in every game espect in a more or less hindering way i´m fine

Yeah, Templar is a class I really want to like, but the magicka issues really drag it down, at least for me.

I do object to the entire, "the only real way to play the game is X, geht ahwn mah level!!!11!!1!" crap, but that's unrelated to the class.

danovic

AlienPrimate wrote: »

I am a VR3 Woodelf Templar with a seemingly endless supply of magicka. I don't remember the last time I actually died because I ran out. I just tested how many times in a row that I can cast puncturing sweep as fast as it will cast and it was 29 times before I was out.

I have 49 points in magicka and use enchantments for HP. I use 7 light armor and resto staff with 5 seducer and 3 magnus' gift. On the rare occasion that I do run out of magicka, I just use one heavy attack from the staff and use a potion to get back up to 1/2 magicka.

My magicka stats:

• 1910 Magicka
• 133 Regeneration
• 48 spell cost reduction
  16/piece of jewelry
• 33% spell cost reduction
  8 from seducer, 21 from light armor, 4 from dawn's wrath

For anyone saying that this is stupid because I had to spec for that, while that is true,here is something for you to look at in PVE. I almost never die in PVE while I go around soloing dolmens, public dungeons, and world bosses whenever I feel like because of this:

• 150% healing effectiveness
  5 from resto staff, 15 from restoring focus, and 30 from focused healing which some argue is worthless because you have to move, but with the healing that I receive, I don't ever have to move while soloing
• I use quick siphon on enemies with a lot of hp which heals me for 58 HP per hit on that enemy.
• Puncturing sweep heals for 40% of damage dealt and hits all enemies in front 4 times.
  Deals 529 damage to 1 enemy and 252 to all others. Assuming that 1 hit of the 4 procs burning light, that would make it 909 and 433 damage.

TEMPLAR IS OP, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT MAGICKA MANAGEMENT
Let us do the healing math for hp gained over the 1.1 second cast time of puncturing sweep:
1 enemy=893 (909*0.4+58*4)*1.5
Each additional enemy is 608 more hp (433*0.4+58*4)*1.5
2 enemies=1501
3 enemies=2109

With just 3 enemies, I heal more than my full HP over the cast time of puncturing sweep.

And all of that is capable because of the armor set you wear not class ability's. put on any other armor set's and see how good you do. You try to get increased dps from sets and you will be out of magic fast. Every class you run up against can max out there mana regen with this and there class will be putting out more damage because that's the way the game is currently balance. The other classes already can get endless magic and do higher damage without sets.

AlienPrimate

danovic wrote: »

AlienPrimate wrote: »

I am a VR3 Woodelf Templar with a seemingly endless supply of magicka. I don't remember the last time I actually died because I ran out. I just tested how many times in a row that I can cast puncturing sweep as fast as it will cast and it was 29 times before I was out.

I have 49 points in magicka and use enchantments for HP. I use 7 light armor and resto staff with 5 seducer and 3 magnus' gift. On the rare occasion that I do run out of magicka, I just use one heavy attack from the staff and use a potion to get back up to 1/2 magicka.

My magicka stats:

• 1910 Magicka
• 133 Regeneration
• 48 spell cost reduction
  16/piece of jewelry
• 33% spell cost reduction
  8 from seducer, 21 from light armor, 4 from dawn's wrath

For anyone saying that this is stupid because I had to spec for that, while that is true,here is something for you to look at in PVE. I almost never die in PVE while I go around soloing dolmens, public dungeons, and world bosses whenever I feel like because of this:

• 150% healing effectiveness
  5 from resto staff, 15 from restoring focus, and 30 from focused healing which some argue is worthless because you have to move, but with the healing that I receive, I don't ever have to move while soloing
• I use quick siphon on enemies with a lot of hp which heals me for 58 HP per hit on that enemy.
• Puncturing sweep heals for 40% of damage dealt and hits all enemies in front 4 times.
  Deals 529 damage to 1 enemy and 252 to all others. Assuming that 1 hit of the 4 procs burning light, that would make it 909 and 433 damage.

TEMPLAR IS OP, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT MAGICKA MANAGEMENT
Let us do the healing math for hp gained over the 1.1 second cast time of puncturing sweep:
1 enemy=893 (909*0.4+58*4)*1.5
Each additional enemy is 608 more hp (433*0.4+58*4)*1.5
2 enemies=1501
3 enemies=2109

With just 3 enemies, I heal more than my full HP over the cast time of puncturing sweep.

And all of that is capable because of the armor set you wear not class ability's. put on any other armor set's and see how good you do. You try to get increased dps from sets and you will be out of magic fast. Every class you run up against can max out there mana regen with this and there class will be putting out more damage because that's the way the game is currently balance. The other classes already can get endless magic and do higher damage without sets.

Other classes have to deal more damage for it to be balanced. They don't have the self heals that templars have. If templar abilities did as much damage as sorcerer or night blade abilities, it wouldn't even be close to being balanced.

Joy_Division

No they have not addressed Templar's magica regen. The fact of the matter if Templars do not dedicate themselves to light armor and specific sets that focus on magica recovery, their inability to recover through alternative means is quite noticeable in challenging encounters.

dodgehopper_ESO

There's also the issue that every class will soon have access to Restoration & Alteration spellcrafting, thus completely negating any benefit of being a Templar. I'm also still a bit annoyed that our Illuminate buff (spell resist buff) doesn't work when you activate dawns wrath, and additionally annoyed that I'm not proccing my Soul gem return from master ritualist. Templar has broken passives/skills just like Nightblade. As an avid player of Templar I find this very annoying, and it also gives me a lot of empathy for Nightblade players as well. (I have a Vet 6 Nightblade as of the moment as well).

I suspect they're so busy trying to figure out how to balance things for when spellcrafting comes out, that anything we say at this point is more or less moot. I'm just looking forward to spellcrafting/champion system coming out, because at this point every sense of balance discussions is a little pointless.

The only thing I think they really need to do is give heavy armor straight damage reduction, and get rid of the boost to armor. Damage Reduction would make Heavy armor worthwhile, and it would not degrade with battle, making heavy armor actually have a point to exist. As it stands, Light and Medium perform far better for just about any use (including tanking).

AlienPrimate

Tankqull wrote: »

AlienPrimate wrote: »

• 150% healing effectiveness
  5 from resto staff, 15 from restoring focus, and 30 from focused healing which some argue is worthless because you have to move, but with the healing that I receive, I don't ever have to move while soloing
• I use quick siphon on enemies with a lot of hp which heals me for 58 HP per hit on that enemy.
• Puncturing sweep heals for 40% of damage dealt and hits all enemies in front 4 times.
  Deals 529 damage to 1 enemy and 252 to all others. Assuming that 1 hit of the 4 procs burning light, that would make it 909 and 433 damage.

TEMPLAR IS OP, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT MAGICKA MANAGEMENT
Let us do the healing math for hp gained over the 1.1 second cast time of puncturing sweep:
1 enemy=893 (909*0.4+58*4)*1.5
Each additional enemy is 608 more hp (433*0.4+58*4)*1.5
2 enemies=1501
3 enemies=2109

With just 3 enemies, I heal more than my full HP over the cast time of puncturing sweep.

there are multiple problems with your assumptions.
1. focused healing only affects heals done by the mentioned ability and thus doesent effect puncturiong stike heals.
2. burning light procs are not included into the PS dmg and thus do not effect its healing output

beside that i don´t disagree - as long as i´m not onehitted on my templar in pve i can solo every pve boss.
but thats not the issue here other classes can do that aswell.

the issue is the magica management and we are fare behind everybody else in this regard
[as a metaphor for the "problem"

Thanks for posting that. For #2, that was just a mistake on my part, but I never knew about #1.

Redone math:
1=(529*0.4+58*4)*1.2=532
(252*0.4+58*4)*1.2=399
2=931
3=1330

Wreuntzylla

AlienPrimate wrote: »

Other classes have to deal more damage for it to be balanced. They don't have the self heals that templars have. If templar abilities did as much damage as sorcerer or night blade abilities, it wouldn't even be close to being balanced.[/quote]

What? When leveling my sorc (now VR14), I could pull entire camps, 25+ mobs, because of crit surge. On my NB (now VR12), funnel health was only limited because I had to cast it on each target. I could also use the siphon skill from the restro tree for self heals.

I can see an argument based on templar group healing abilities, but certainly not based on self heals.

Sotha_Sil

I'm sorry guys but I feel like you complain about magicka management but you don't give any example about it.

My gear : 2,3K magika 3K health in PVP using 7*light

PVE : healing templars do fine for trials & dragonstar arena

just use Breath of life, healing springs, purifying ritual and staff regen + 7 light armor + magicka return glyph on weapon.

With 2K magicka u'll be fine for all this content. Use heavy attacks to get magicka sometimes and you won't even have to use ONE POTION. Potions could be needed for hard mode maybe but still, in most cases you won't need it.

PVP : using BoL + Healing springs + immovable + purge + mage guild light + barrier main bar for most healing effectiveness and harness magicka/equilibrium in second bar

healing springs + breath of life are the main healing skills there. Barrier absorbing most of the damage anyway in organized raids vs raids. In random groups, you die in 5s or you kill in 5s so there is no point to discuss about it.

ORGANIZED RAIDS : 20+ people : in this configuration, barrier rotation is the only key to win as healers can't provide enough heals at a very short amount of time when fighting an organized raid. Thus, you won't actually need to heal a lot as barrier rotation from players will ensure no damage gets taken. Concerning magika, the common effort of templars (surely there are more than 1 in the group) heals the group, using harness magicka returns + solar shield for perfect mana return combo / equilibrium also offers great magicka return when not fighting.

The recent nerf of healing springs mana regeneration might have made it more challenging and you will be required to use mana potions a lot more than before. However, if you have a necrotic orb guy in your party, YOU WILL DO FINE.

CONCLUSION : HEALING BUILDS ARE PERFECTLY WORKING !!!!! no mana issue in PVE / in PVP, you will be required to use mana pots very often (every time you can during the fights) however as you also need quick stamina regeneration you would have needed to drink pots ANYWAY.

-> WHERE IS THE DAMN ISSUE GUYS ??? TEMPLARS WORK FINE AS TANK, HEALER IN BOTH PVP & PVE. TEMPLAR DD in PVP is viable too. However, I agree it is completely useless as DD in PVE mainly due to its skills than anything else.

Braidas

As a Templar, please buff me in any way possible. Ty zeni.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

I'm sorry guys but I feel like you complain about magicka management but you don't give any example about it.

PVE : healing templars do fine for trials & dragonstar arena

just use Breath of life, healing springs, purifying ritual and staff regen + 7 light armor + magicka return glyph on weapon.

With 2K magicka u'll be fine for all this content. Use heavy attacks to get magicka sometimes and you won't even have to use ONE POTION. Potions could be needed for hard mode maybe but still, in most cases you won't need it.

PVP : using BoL + Healing springs + immovable + purge + guild mage light + barrier main bar for most healing effectiveness and harness magicka/equilibrium in second bar

healing springs + breath of life are the main healing skills there. Barrier absorbing most of the damage anyway in organized raids vs raids. In random groups, you die in 5s or you kill in 5s so.

ORGANIZED RAIDS : 20+ people : the common effort of templars (surely there are more than 1 in the group) heals the group, using harness magicka returns + solar shield for perfect mana return combo / equilibrium also offers great magicka return when not fighting.

The recent nerf of healing springs mana regeneration might have made it more challenging and you will be required to use mana potions a lot more than before. However, if you have a necrotic orb guy in your party, YOU WILL DO FINE.

CONCLUSION : no mana issue in PVE / in PVP, you will be required to use mana pots very often (every time you can during the fights) however as you also need quick stamina regeneration you would have needed to drink pots ANYWAY.

-> WHERE IS THE DAMN ISSUE GUYS ???

The issue is if you want to be anything other than a healer.

Sotha_Sil

well tank is working fine. DD in PVP is working great. DD in PVE is useless as hell as skills are ineffective. So the issue is not about the magicka management here. You are free to open a topic about how templar dps skills are crappy compared to other classes, i'll agree 100%.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Soulshine wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

If you want to understand the issue play a v14 well geared Templar, NB, and Sorc. Note the difference in magicka management options.

I have been playing a Templar since beta and am well versed in the problem. I asked about gear on this class not others since how others manage magicka, which I am also versed in is not the issue being discussed.

How others can manage is actually the whole issue. Without comparing it is fine in my book, but its multiplayer and if other classes have better options then people consider it a balance issue. I found a neich where I'm not really having an issue so I'm not crusading but you can't ignore other classes in the questoin is resource management balanced. Wtf.

And to be clear, Resource regain stat is irrelevant to this topic, everyone has access to same gear etc. The issue is class based abilities that help management in a way unrelated to regeneration. Such as endless fury, an execute that net gains you magica.

Stx

Every class has a weakness... Templar just happens to have worse regeneration.

My Nightblade doesn't have a spammable damage shield that also deals great melee range damage. Nor does he have an instant cast heal that can heal for over half his health like Honor the Dead does when used on low health targets.

Point is, every class has ups and downs. My NB has great sustain via siphoning strikes, but lacks survival. Templars have great survival and utility, but lack sustain. Sorcerers have great sustain via dark exchange, but lack the bomb heals that Templars have.

I really don't understand why so many of these Templar threads keep popping up. It would make a lot more sense to ask for buffs to the Templar ultimates or increase the damage of some of Templar abilities, so they can compete as a dps role.

Asking for more magicka recovery is silly. In that case, send my Nightblade a damage shield please, and more self heals! Thanks.

JLB

Stx wrote: »

Every class has a weakness... Templar just happens to have worse regeneration.

This is not a class weakness, it's bad game design. NBs, Sorcerers and DKs have at least 1 way to sustain their magicka through class passives/skills. Templars don't.

Having NO magicka sustain affects the whole Templar gameplay: be it healing, Dps or tanking, be it in Light, Medium or Heavy armor.
Only gearing for magicka cost reduction & magicka bonuses + Resto/Destro staff would solve magicka problems to sustain our expensive costs, while the rest of the classes don't have to rely on that to avoid magicka problems to sustain their not-so-expensive costs.

And just to clarify, no one here is asking for endless magicka sustain. Just a tiny bit more of sustain to be on the same league as any other class.

I agree with you, though, about the Ultimates and some skills damage. But there are like a thousand other posts about it as well.