Is Templar Magicka Management issue considered fixed?

david.haypreub18_ESO

It has been nearly four months since ZOS acknowledged it had heard 'clear and loud' that the main problem with the Templar class was its poor mana management. This was in the thread the developers themselves started when they acknowledged that the Templar class was behind the other classes and needed some improvements in the interest of class balance. Since then, there have been some Templar fixes. However, the magicka management issue remains.

To be clear: no one is saying the Templar is broken. It has good survivability, is decent in PvP, and is arguably the best healer. Templars do have some good things to offer. But the vast majority of players who responded to the Developers' thread about how to fix the class (thread is here, BTW: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/112276/templar-update/p1 ) said that the #1 issue with the class was its poor magicka management, and the developers agreed that they had heard this message 'clear and loud'.

So, it has been four months since then, and ZOS has not made any response, so I think it is fair at least to ask: does ZOS consider the Templars to be fixed? I think the very least the players can expect is a response to that question, so we can plan our characters accordingly. It has been four months, after all.

stumpy999

Please can I have more magika or cheaper spells. Thanks

Nox_Aeterna

First , zen is slow , they are still fixing beta issues.

Second , dont keep high hopes of them fixing every issue even if they admit it is a problem.

babylon

Pretty sure they're making it worse, with the upcoming (and second) Harness Magicka nerf (in update 5 they're making it so you only get magicka back a maximum of three times per cast).

SoulScream

I'm pretty happy with the class except that I do feel a small magicka problem does still exist. If the spells cost slightly less or I gained magicka back better I would feel the class is done for now. I do use harness magicka so that change above concerns me.

Soulshine

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

stumpy999

For my pve templar-

I run 39 magika, 10 health. Have blue, arcane, spell damage jewelry and run 5 seducer, 3/4 magnus. I use magika/health or 3 stat food.

Magika regen isn't capped or overcharged and I am a breton with all the breton passives and all the light armour passives. 5 light, 2 heavy. infused shield.

Magika and spell resist are the only things that hit soft cap. None of my regen is close.

I run 4 infused/4 divines and mundus is spell penetration.

timidobserver

Soulshine wrote: »

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

If you want to understand the issue play a v14 well geared Templar, NB, and Sorc. Note the difference in magicka management options.

Soulshine

timidobserver wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

If you want to understand the issue play a v14 well geared Templar, NB, and Sorc. Note the difference in magicka management options.

I have been playing a Templar since beta and am well versed in the problem. I asked about gear on this class not others since how others manage magicka, which I am also versed in is not the issue being discussed.

rophez_ESO

You should try a warlock set (5) + willow (5) - enchant your jewelry until your magicka regen is capped. Use heavy attacks with a staff to help you manage magicka. My templar friend does this and never has a problem with magicka. You also could try magnus or seducer in lieu of the willow, but then you'll need more jewelry +magicka regen enchants.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Soulshine wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

If you want to understand the issue play a v14 well geared Templar, NB, and Sorc. Note the difference in magicka management options.

I have been playing a Templar since beta and am well versed in the problem. I asked about gear on this class not others since how others manage magicka, which I am also versed in is not the issue being discussed.

It is the issue being discussed, because the Templars need to be balanced against them. Sorcs in particular have better mana management options, and the Templar spells tend to cost more relative to the other classes' ones, and this extends even (in fact especially) to ultimates (compare Standard versus Nova). The Templar ultimates are commonly reckoned the worst in the game.

Soulshine

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

I am curious. To anyone that is having the stated problems with magicka: what armor sets are you using and is your stat for magicka regen capped or overcharged?

If you want to understand the issue play a v14 well geared Templar, NB, and Sorc. Note the difference in magicka management options.

I have been playing a Templar since beta and am well versed in the problem. I asked about gear on this class not others since how others manage magicka, which I am also versed in is not the issue being discussed.

It is the issue being discussed, because the Templars need to be balanced against them. Sorcs in particular have better mana management options, and the Templar spells tend to cost more relative to the other classes' ones, and this extends even (in fact especially) to ultimates (compare Standard versus Nova). The Templar ultimates are commonly reckoned the worst in the game.

Templar magicka management needs to be balanced relative the the skills of the class itself and how these are meant used, and of these which are the most effective for the job at hand for a particular build. To ask that they be balanced relavtive to any other class's job and abilities is not the point as I see it, and would do a disservice to our class.

stumpy999

I agree on the ultimates but let's stay on magika management.

So i see 3 parts to my magika - how much a spell costs, how often I use it and what my recovery rate is.

It's like a triangle - I go for spell damage and use the spell less often as the bad guys are dead. I go for cost reduction and accept I have to strike more often or I go for recovery and just hope I don't run dry before they die.

Now that's just on biting jabs, step up a level and consider the humble javelin, a rank 2 spell just about jabs, and it's cost is a whopping increase.

Go further up the other spell lines and you run dry very quickly.

I compare this to my mage toon and he almost never runs out of magika.

And as an afterthought I have never used equilibrium, ever.....

timidobserver

They are too taken up with making stamina OP to look into it.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Soulshine wrote: »

Templar magicka management needs to be balanced relative the the skills of the class itself and how these are meant used, and of these which are the most effective for the job at hand for a particular build. To ask that they be balanced relavtive to any other class's job and abilities is not the point as I see it, and would do a disservice to our class.

Templar magicka management needs to be sufficient to enable the class to be balanced against the other classes. When the Templar runs out of magicka more quickly than other classes (due to relatively high costs) and has fewer options for replenishing magicka, then the class has a problem relative to the other classes. This is the point that numerous posters made -- and the developers seemed to acknowledge-- when the developers asked for feedback on how to balance the Templar class relative to the other classes.

stumpy999

Nicely put David

Soulshine

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Templar magicka management needs to be balanced relative the the skills of the class itself and how these are meant used, and of these which are the most effective for the job at hand for a particular build. To ask that they be balanced relavtive to any other class's job and abilities is not the point as I see it, and would do a disservice to our class.

Templar magicka management needs to be sufficient to enable the class to be balanced against the other classes. When the Templar runs out of magicka more quickly than other classes (due to relatively high costs) and has fewer options for replenishing magicka, then the class has a problem relative to the other classes. This is the point that numerous posters made -- and the developers seemed to acknowledge-- when the developers asked for feedback on how to balance the Templar class relative to the other classes.

Yes, and sometimes people miss the forest for the trees too. Considering what Templars can already do, just how much balance do you expect to find against them if they were suddenly tendered the same magicka management tools as a Sorc for example? Templars are a support class, and likely intended as the only true hybrid that is effective. It's challenges on the resource front are obviously unique and not as straightforward. This is why I think devs need to look at them from the inside out rather than the other way around. Essentially, "same" does not mean "equal."

stumpy999

lol, one that will not end

david.haypreub18_ESO

Soulshine wrote: »

Yes, and sometimes people miss the forest for the trees too. Considering what Templars can already do, just how much balance do you expect to find against them if they were suddenly tendered the same magicka management tools as a Sorc for example? Templars are a support class, and likely intended as the only true hybrid that is effective. It's challenges on the resource front are obviously unique and not as straightforward. This is why I think devs need to look at them from the inside out rather than the other way around. Essentially, "same" does not mean "equal."

When did ZOS say that Templars had to be a 'support class'? This is supposed to be a 'play as you want game'. Right now, though, only one class seems to be labeled 'support', and the label seems to be a way of justifying it being the least played and most magicka-starved class.

I respect your opinion, but I just don't buy the 'Templars are support, so it is ok if they are inferior' argument.

Personally, I would say the Templars are close to being balanced, but the magicka management is the last hurdle, and unfortunately it is a significant one. In my opinion, ZOS has to do one of two things to address that issue:

1. Reduce the cost of Templar spells, or
2. Give the Templars a magicka replenishing ability (e.g. Restoring Aura on the Restoring light line should restore magicka rather than health, as numerous posters have suggested).

I agree that doing both would be overkill; but the issue with magicka management won't really go away until either the Templar costs are brought in line with other classes costs, or the Templars have some more effective way (as the other classes do) of restoring magicka in combat situations.

Soulshine

Wha? I never stated anywhere that "it is ok if they are inferior" nor do I think that we are; far from it, and have said so on this very forum very often.

My point is that when it comes to the devs making decisions about which skills will cost less or which more, or if they are to determine how much regen we would need - or should need - it is a much more complex process given the range of what we can do.

I can only hope that they will bother at some point to update communication about the direction they are taking with the feedback they have received from us since beta, and let us know how - if at all - they intend to address it.

stumpy999

the argument expands to meet the needs of the argument. I suggest you just agree to disagree

JLB

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Personally, I would say the Templars are close to being balanced, but the magicka management is the last hurdle, and unfortunately it is a significant one. In my opinion, ZOS has to do one of two things to address that issue:

1. Reduce the cost of Templar spells, or
2. Give the Templars a magicka replenishing ability.

Yep.
@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌
Would be great to have an official answer at some point.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Soulshine wrote: »

Wha? I never stated anywhere that "it is ok if they are inferior" nor do I think that we are; far from it, and have said so on this very forum very often.

Sorry, I guess I was a bit unfair. I just so often see the 'support' argument as a way to dismiss the problems facing the Templar class. The argument doesn't work for any other class, so I just wanted to point out that it is not an argument that really holds much weight with me.

I can only hope that they will bother at some point to update communication about the direction they are taking with the feedback they have received from us since beta, and let us know how - if at all - they intend to address it.

On that, we can all agree.

david.haypreub18_ESO

I also think the ultimates really need to be looked at. Radial Sweep has a bit of a niche in terms of being ultra-low cost and adding some much needed DPS, but Nova is just too expensive and easy to avoid. Imagine if Nova was the same cost as Standard, or moved with the Templar like Bat Swarm... then Templars might finally have an ultimate that the other classes feared.

stumpy999

ultimates need to be ultimate, as a templar I don't use templar ultimates as they are too poor.

so as a class the ultimates suck.

Given the nature of the class I'd love the fire ultimate to be a batswarm slayer, i'd trade the other poor ones for that

but that's just me :P

david.haypreub18_ESO

I would too-- make Nova do fire damage, and move with the Templar... then you could follow the swarm.

dodgehopper_ESO

Not to mention Templar has some broken passives too.

danovic

Yes Templars still have magic regen problems which require all magic regen armor sets to wear. So this further limits the amount of dps we can do sense we can't wear any of the stronger increased damage set. But making us compensate for bad design is just jury rigging a problem that needs to be fixed. With update 5 they even go as far as ruining our strongest ultimate by limiting the damage from nova to 6. That and the cc immunity mobs get if someone hits the group with another cc before nova just lets them run out of area of effect making nova useless.They going in the wrong direction.

JLB

danovic wrote: »

Yes Templars still have magic regen problems which require all magic regen armor sets to wear. So this further limits the amount of dps we can do sense we can't wear any of the stronger increased damage set. But making us compensate for bad design is just jury rigging a problem that needs to be fixed. With update 5 they even go as far as ruining our strongest ultimate by limiting the damage from nova to 6. That and the cc immunity mobs get if someone hits the group with another cc before nova just lets them run out of area of effect making nova useless.They going in the wrong direction.

Nova? They might aswell delete it I wouldn't miss it a bit. What a horrendous Ultimate.
Sadly, Nova is only a bit useful when you have a DK rooting people and as complementation of his Standard.
Otherwise is pretty useless, because of the cost, duration, damage and effect.

I wouldn't expect much for Templars. One of the key flaws is the passives of the class, and I don't see that changing any time soon. That's where all the problems of the class start: bad synergies, lower dps & worst magicka sustain of all classes.

Imagine they implement a passive bonus that increases power by 15% for 10 seconds while activating an Ultimate, and a passive that restores a small amount of Magicka/Stamina when enemies are affected by Dawn's Wrath abilities.
And then, back to Ultimates, imagine they cut Nova's cost by the half (because it's worse than Standard and Veil, therefore should cost less) and make Rite of Passage movable.
How different would everything be.

AlienPrimate

I am a VR3 Woodelf Templar with a seemingly endless supply of magicka. I don't remember the last time I actually died because I ran out. I just tested how many times in a row that I can cast puncturing sweep as fast as it will cast and it was 29 times before I was out.

I have 49 points in magicka and use enchantments for HP. I use 7 light armor and resto staff with 5 seducer and 3 magnus' gift. On the rare occasion that I do run out of magicka, I just use one heavy attack from the staff and use a potion to get back up to 1/2 magicka.

My magicka stats:

• 1910 Magicka
• 133 Regeneration
• 48 spell cost reduction
  16/piece of jewelry
• 33% spell cost reduction
  8 from seducer, 21 from light armor, 4 from dawn's wrath

For anyone saying that this is stupid because I had to spec for that, while that is true,here is something for you to look at in PVE. I almost never die in PVE while I go around soloing dolmens, public dungeons, and world bosses whenever I feel like because of this:

• 150% healing effectiveness
  5 from resto staff, 15 from restoring focus, and 30 from focused healing which some argue is worthless because you have to move, but with the healing that I receive, I don't ever have to move while soloing
• I use quick siphon on enemies with a lot of hp which heals me for 58 HP per hit on that enemy.
• Puncturing sweep heals for 40% of damage dealt and hits all enemies in front 4 times.
  Deals 529 damage to 1 enemy and 252 to all others. Assuming that 1 hit of the 4 procs burning light, that would make it 909 and 433 damage.

TEMPLAR IS OP, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT MAGICKA MANAGEMENT
Let us do the healing math for hp gained over the 1.1 second cast time of puncturing sweep:
1 enemy=893 (909*0.4+58*4)*1.5
Each additional enemy is 608 more hp (433*0.4+58*4)*1.5
2 enemies=1501
3 enemies=2109

With just 3 enemies, I heal more than my full HP over the cast time of puncturing sweep.

rotiferuk

Magicka regen? ROFLMHO. Templars are already capable of speeding up Health / Stamina regen and purging themselves of up to two effects. An "I Win" button would be greedy.