How do you guys feel about Werewolf/Vampire Ranks?

Blain

What I mean is, currently ( atleasy I think), there is no extra reward for doing the vampire/werewolf quests in the 2nd/3rd alliance area you get into...

What I'm proposing is say 2 new ranks of each class!

Master and Grandmaster Vampire/Werewolf (Names are really just fillers at the moment)

If you do the quest in your second zone, with buffed up enemies and a little tweaking, you should be given a "Master Vampire/Werewolf" Class line, with increased passives & better abilities.

Going with that logic, if you put the time and effort into to get to the 3rd alliance area and do the quest there you would be given a class called "Grandmaster Vampire/Werewolf" With increased benefits and better abilities etc.

Mind you, all the quests would be rebalanced for those areas, like how currently even at level 38 they're a pain in the ass if you don't have a good rotation/use a bow.

Sooo, what do you guys/gals think of the idea?

It is just a rough sketch and was just born from some thinking whilst idle in the game.

~Blain

phreatophile

I think it's a good idea.
Brace yourself for the flood of vitriol from all the folks who only want to hear about nerfs and vampires in the same sentence. Let's see if I can beat them in with the first twilight reference.

<insert comments about glowey teen fangers just sophisticated enough for preschool playground here>

Seriously, even some ranks beyond 10 in the skill line would be cool.

Blain

phreatophile wrote: »

I think it's a good idea.
Brace yourself for the flood of vitriol from all the folks who only want to hear about nerfs and vampires in the same sentence. Let's see if I can beat them in with the first twilight reference.

<insert comments about glowey teen fangers just sophisticated enough for preschool playground here>

Seriously, even some ranks beyond 10 in the skill line would be cool.

Good to see I didn't waste 2 hours fleshing this idea out earlier. Will probably copy/paste post it over soon.

Numbers are just fillers though, so it won't be idealistic.

MornaBaine

I think it's clear that vampires and werewolves need love in a major way. Right now they are, frankly, just rather lame. And I say that with a vampire as my main. So yes, I am all for ANYTHING that adds depth/complexity and just sheer fun to them.

AlexDougherty

Provided the improvements don't overpower those of us who don't want to be a vampire or werewolf, then fine, go for it.

adean27

Werewolf update will be coming in shortly, it has a Howl ability that self heals, and a bunch of different actives.

One thing that was mentioned by the developers was that they are toying around with the idea of allowing you to have Cadwell's Gold and Cadwell's Silver quests simultaneously. Allowing you to go to which area you want at anytime.

Regardless of that, I'm not a supporter of this idea. No other skill tree is treated in this way, so I don't really see why it should just be applied to Vampire or Werewolf. It would add a huge complexity to the tree, as you would literally have to morph the whole tree. Now if you're talking about just taking the 10 level master trees and expanding it to 20 levels, then 30 levels, that would also cause a massive imbalance, as it would raise the cap for you skills.

So for example, let us use Batswarm, something that is constantly listed at being overpowered, with 20 additional levels, it would essentially double the effectiveness and power of something that is already considered extremely overpowered.

I get the whole "incentive" aspect, but I don't think modifying the skill setup is the way to go. I think you would be better off perhaps giving a title, or some sort of gothic vampire looking costume. Something that can be used to show a level of esteem, but without completely unbalancing the game to the point that if you're not a top tier Vampire or Werewolf, then you may as well not play.

Also take into consideration that by completing all of these quests you gain XP that is tracked by ZOS to calculate how many Champion Points you will receive in the Champion System. Even if you do not see the XP, you are getting it and it is being tracked.

Samadhi

Would prefer if Veteran ranks did not send us to rehash story quests in other alliance zones at all. That these quests exist as reiterations of their lower level versions is equally disappointing.

Have both Werewolf and Vampire lines leveled to 10. Feel the existing forms are quite sufficient.
Looking forward to the Werewolf changes, but really the fix so that Werewolf can CC break is more than enough in my book.

Maybe give level 10 Werewolves and Vampires a title to go with the Dye, and give Werewolves a costume they can equip to appear as a Werewolf for roleplay purposes.

Nebthet78

I like your idea, but also feel that something like this needs to be done with ALL classes once we reach Vet/Champion ranks. Even if it's the ability to morph skills an additional rank while we are in the Vet zones.

However, at the moment, Werewolf really needs fixing to be more at par with the vampire skill line and to actually be useful. I think once they get that figure out and working well, then they can go and fix other skill lines.

I honestly would love to see characters in this game evolve much more. Let skills greatly separate how classes are played and what their abilities are.

But unfortunately, it has become very clear that most players want is a god-build that makes them think they are stronger than all other players and if someone else kicks their butt, then they are OP'd and their class/skill needs to be nerfed because they whine incessantly about it until ZOS caves. Then they wonder why other prefer soloing and not doing PVP content.

Now to get back to your OP... It would be nice to be able to go down a different path with the Vampire and Werewolf skills lines while in the VR zones. Something that would allow players to specialize and set them apart from other vampire and werewolf players and be a bit more unique in their choices. I like the idea of a Master Vampire and perhaps even Vampire Lord skill line as the highest. For Werewolf, they could better define the Bezerker and Pack Leader skill lines, perhaps even allowing for for some cross over skills.

There is so much written in the lore books from the other games that could be implemented to make things interesting and unique for players but again, it has to be something that is reasonable and doesn't OP you compared to other classes.

starkerealm

Blain wrote: »

Mind you, all the quests would be rebalanced for those areas, like how currently even at level 38 they're a pain in the ass if you don't have a good rotation/use a bow.

And you use a bow... how, as a nine foot tall snarling deathbeast, exactly?

Snark aside, both Werewolves and Vampires need more variety. I don't think artificially tacking on more levels is the answer. Particularly because the later werewolf tiers basically demand you have a farming system set up.

Werewolves are already getting beefed up, though I really thing the transform shouldn't be timed. It's still the single most expensive ultimate in the game and there is still a massive trade off for turning it on. Now, I can keep a transform going for five or six minutes with devour, but giving us the ability to turn it off when we want to instead of automatically would be really great. Especially given that werewolf packs work best when everyone is wolfed out, and the duration on that is pretty limited. (And, yes, you can cancel out of the transformation. I'm talking about getting rid of the timer.)

If we could swing it, I think some of the alternate lycanthropy variations would also be really nice transitions, such as the Wereboars, Werebears, and Werebats. Available to players as alternatives. Though, I get that could be somewhat unmanageable.

With vampires, there really needs to be more variety available. I know that players are all infected with a very specific strain of vampirism, but Tamriel is a continent with a psychotic variety of vampire strains.

It would be freakin' amazing if the player's race unlocked an additional power or two and a passive for vampires of that race, or the ability to pick one of the Tamerilic clans and get specific additional ability options. Imperials get the Cyrodillic strain's ability to be undetectable when fully fed. Bosmer have an improved version of mistform... of course the elephant in the room is the Clan Volkihar Vampire Lord transform, which... I won't lie, it would be awesome as hell to get that, in the same sort of way that werewolves have an alternate form Ultimate. Though, it would probably require an entirely new skill line.

Also, with vampires, just tossing this one out there, the duration of feeding stages should probably be extended to an in game day, or close to one. Once the justice system hits, that could then be layered with a KoS at stage 4 that people have been asking for.

starkerealm

Samadhi wrote: »

Would prefer if Veteran ranks did not send us to rehash story quests in other alliance zones at all. That these quests exist as reiterations of their lower level versions is equally disappointing.

Have both Werewolf and Vampire lines leveled to 10. Feel the existing forms are quite sufficient.
Looking forward to the Werewolf changes, but really the fix so that Werewolf can CC break is more than enough in my book.

Maybe give level 10 Werewolves and Vampires a title to go with the Dye, and give Werewolves a costume they can equip to appear as a Werewolf for roleplay purposes.

It occurs to me, you could have a werewolf "transform" and a vampire "disguise" active, with relatively minor buffs that just works as a standard toggle. It'd achieve basically the same results. Though, I still think the wolf transform not having a timer attached to it would do wonders for the RP crowd.

Nebthet78

starkerealm wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Would prefer if Veteran ranks did not send us to rehash story quests in other alliance zones at all. That these quests exist as reiterations of their lower level versions is equally disappointing.

Have both Werewolf and Vampire lines leveled to 10. Feel the existing forms are quite sufficient.
Looking forward to the Werewolf changes, but really the fix so that Werewolf can CC break is more than enough in my book.

Maybe give level 10 Werewolves and Vampires a title to go with the Dye, and give Werewolves a costume they can equip to appear as a Werewolf for roleplay purposes.

It occurs to me, you could have a werewolf "transform" and a vampire "disguise" active, with relatively minor buffs that just works as a standard toggle. It'd achieve basically the same results. Though, I still think the wolf transform not having a timer attached to it would do wonders for the RP crowd.

I agree with Werewolf Transform not having a timer put on it.

I had the most fun with my WW when I ran into the "getting hit by enemy mid-transform" Bug that let me stay that way for an hour. I literally traveled in circles mauling enemies. It was so much fun!! I actually remember yelling out "This is so awesome" while I was playing it. Then it ended and reality at how show crappy WW actually is when timed set in. The disappointment hurt harder than coming off a high.

WraithAzraiel

A timer on WW, yea it's kinda bad but a toggle on and off? No. Have it work like Overload and that'd be nice but popping into Werewolf and then turning it off again when it's an inconvenience just seems lazy and spoiled.

I'd be okay with having a Vampire lord form as a reward for a ridiculously long Vampire quest. I'd be all for that actually.

starkerealm

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

A timer on WW, yea it's kinda bad but a toggle on and off? No.

Part of the problem with the transform right now is that the timer is simply way too tight. I haven't put a stopwatch on it, but it's somewhere under 30 seconds. (EDIT: I think it's 10 seconds, but I could be wrong.) Devour refreshes 1/3 of the timer (it used to be 1/4th), and the result is a system that, while fun, never gives you a moment to actually enjoy what you're doing. You need to jump into the next fray as fast as possible or lose the transform.

Unlimited may be swinging too far in the other direction, that I can agree with. But, the existing timer is way too tight.

Also, unless someone knows of a more expensive one, the Werewolf transform is still the single most expensive ultimate in the game (at 500 (400 once it hits rank IV)). Even on a good ultimate build it takes awhile to build it up, and transforming back out flushes that. So, when I'm saying it shouldn't have a timer, I don't mean you shouldn't have to work up 500 ultimate. In fact, if we actually got rid of the timer I, for one, wouldn't object to the return of the 1k ultimate cost the transform used to have. I have no problem with having to earn the transform, but the timer just means you need to push on rather than bask in your victory.

Divad Zarn

I was thinking about such idea longtime ago, even make feedback about it in-game, but my idea was about those master vamp/WWs to improve them with the amouth of people they will bite, so the more vamp/WW was bitten from X character, the high will be his master rank of vamp/ww, so the more turned "sons and daughters" vampire or werewolf have, the more strong he/she will be.

AoEnwyr

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Provided the improvements don't overpower those of us who don't want to be a vampire or werewolf, then fine, go for it.

Yes I agree, happy for you guys to have content unique to Vampires/Warewolves as long as it doesn't unbalance gameplay for people who specifically do not want to be either of these.

Personally, I think Vampires and Warewolves are already at an advantage through having additional skills available to them and I don't think its fair to more or less "force" people down one of these paths to be competitive.

Then again I'm all for the idea of abominations (which is what Vampires and Warewolves are) being KoS if caught feeding in public areas.

starkerealm

UlanX wrote: »

Personally, I think Vampires and Warewolves are already at an advantage through having additional skills available to them and I don't think its fair to more or less "force" people down one of these paths to be competitive.

Okay, with respect: go out, roll up an alt, or pick one of your characters, get them infected, run them to Werewolf or Vampire 10, (preferably do one of each) and come back and say that again.

I can respect the opinion that werewolves or vampires are more powerful than other players, and I know there are some stupidly broken vampire builds floating around. But, until you've experienced those systems first hand, you're not really in a position to offer an informed opinion on the subject.

WraithAzraiel

starkerealm wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

A timer on WW, yea it's kinda bad but a toggle on and off? No.

Unlimited may be swinging too far in the other direction, that I can agree with. But, the existing timer is way too tight.

Yea, I think a minute would be fair. with each devour adding 20 seconds and a 15 second cooldown on devours.

That sounds fair to me, maybe even a little generous.

Leeric

Vamps are fine, werewolf's could use some buffs though.

WraithAzraiel

Sure it's fun but some more skills that aren't gamebreaking would be awesome. WW is getting more than 2 active abilities.
Why can't Vamp have a few? So long as they don't become ridiculously overdone.

starkerealm

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Sure it's fun but some more skills that aren't gamebreaking would be awesome. WW is getting more than 2 active abilities.
Why can't Vamp have a few? So long as they don't become ridiculously overdone.

The big difference is, with Vamp, you can mix your actives in with your normal class abilities... Werewolves can't. At VR14, you're a character with two active abilities while wolfed out.

That said, if it was up to me, Vampires and Wolves would be getting multiple skill lines to strain your non-completionist skill point reserves to the braking point, with different approaches to shaping your unholy abomination. But, like I said, if it was up to me.

starkerealm

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

A timer on WW, yea it's kinda bad but a toggle on and off? No.

Unlimited may be swinging too far in the other direction, that I can agree with. But, the existing timer is way too tight.

Yea, I think a minute would be fair. with each devour adding 20 seconds and a 15 second cooldown on devours.

That sounds fair to me, maybe even a little generous.

Alternately, a 30 second timer that doesn't count down while you're in combat. I know there's the persistent "in combat" bug, but once that gets dealt with... it would do wonders for allowing you to use Werewolves on something other than trash mobs, when you're not zerging.

Another possibility, on the unlimited transform, would be to tie vital functionality to the devour ability. If you had 0 health regen, or even gradual health loss (like in Morrowind) until you chowed down on someone, and then disabled the health loss until the end of the transform, but only had health regen for 20 or 30 seconds... it could work. Particularly if some of the passives were tied to having used devour.

There's a lot of ways to mechanically improve it. Part of the problem right now is, if you're not running in a pack of at least 3 other players (werewolves or not), the skill line is incredibly tricky to use. It would be really neat to be able to legitimately use the wolf form to help tank a boss, particularly if they got a taunt option somewhere. The skill line is built for that, and it'd be nice to be able to follow through.

WraithAzraiel

Can we make it up to you? That'd be awesome

dodgehopper_ESO

So I have more than one Vampire 10, and Wolf 10. I've got a fairly good experience playing both of them since the beginning of the game.

On the other hand, my main character is also a Templar who I really can't stomach the idea of being either vampire or werewolf. For this character, I honestly wish there were a lot more to play with than the Fighters Guild toys. I wish that Silver Leash pulled in everyone, not just vampires. I wish instead of a ridiculous uber proc that can one shot someone, I just had a nasty extra bit of damage at all times.

I would also love to see more Fighters Guild abilities that are totally unrelated to hunting everything Stendarr abhors and more related to common Knightly/Warrior pursuits that the Fighters Guild is known for. This is one reason why I'm frustrated by Silver Leash as an ability. So I suppose in the realm of this conversation I'm also saying I'd like to see the Fighters Guild get a little love in this regard as well, perhaps with skill lines of a more martial aspect, and a few spiritual ones that by their association with the aedra would not be workable by werewolves and vampires.

I'm very excited to see the future improvements to Werewolves. I personally haven't shapeshifted in ages on my werewolf characters because it is just not expedient to do so. The human/mer form is just vastly stronger than the Wolf form. I think the suggestion that there be possibly other Were forms is fantastic, if they could program it I'd love it.

All in all though, I have a feeling that in the short term everything surrounding the Justice System (Guards/Thieves/Assassins), Champion System, and Spellcrafting system (including whatever weapon based analog they had in mind) are probably going to take up a lot more of their time for a while. Who knows though, perhaps spellcrafting will eventually make it possible to morph existing skill abilities in different ways, which in turn could do what you guys are asking.

BBSooner

Im all for vampire/ww progression as long as there is enough of a downside to being them that they aren't a required condition.

WraithAzraiel

Also the introduction of a Dawnguard skill line would be pretty [email protected] as well.

dodgehopper_ESO

I like the Dawnguard in Skyrim, but from a theme perspective I believe it would make more sense if the organization were the Vigilants of Stendarr in this era. The Dawnguard were a more localized affair, and while they did exist in ancient times under the rule of a Duke/Thane/Whatever of south eastern Skyrim, I don't know if it makes sense for ESO. The overall theme is cool though, and I think it would be neat if they had the Vigilants.

BBSooner

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I like the Dawnguard in Skyrim, but from a theme perspective I believe it would make more sense if the organization were the Vigilants of Stendarr in this era. The Dawnguard were a more localized affair, and while they did exist in ancient times under the rule of a Duke/Thane/Whatever of south eastern Skyrim, I don't know if it makes sense for ESO. The overall theme is cool though, and I think it would be neat if they had the Vigilants.

The Vigilant of Stendarr were an organization founded after the oblivion crisis. The problem with the Dawnguard as well is as you said, it's localized to skyrim - which I'm cool with - but could pose some issues for implementation.

Edit: it seems to make more sense holding the "monster hunting" skills in the fighters guild atm because ...

... of Sees-all-colors involvement with Meridia. Her influence and mandates up until her judgement had the fighters guild in a heavy "anti-undead/anti-daedra" direction, especially considering the Dawnbreaker ultimate.

starkerealm

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I like the Dawnguard in Skyrim, but from a theme perspective I believe it would make more sense if the organization were the Vigilants of Stendarr in this era. The Dawnguard were a more localized affair, and while they did exist in ancient times under the rule of a Duke/Thane/Whatever of south eastern Skyrim, I don't know if it makes sense for ESO. The overall theme is cool though, and I think it would be neat if they had the Vigilants.

As someone else pointed out, the Vigilants weren't founded until the 4th Era. While Dawnguard might actually be up and running in the 2nd Era, we don't know. While they're headquartered in Skyrim, there's no reason to assume they couldn't have bases of operation scattered across Tamriel.

dodgehopper_ESO

I thought the 4th era only saw the resurgence of the Vigilants. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, I'm fairly comfortable saying that the followers of Stendarr have always held a disdain for the daedric.