Traits - Why only buff ?

Rune_Relic

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.

Why don't all of the traits, enchantments, armour sets ect all include Buff+Nerf ?
Why aren't you penalised in one way for becoming stronger in another ?
Why doesn't all the items you can obtain have negatives to automatically balance the positives ?

http://tamrieljournal.com/crafted-item-sets-eso/
example of pure buffs.

seanolan

Because people don't WANT to study a trait for weeks or level up enchanting for months to be made weaker. Sorry this is a confusing issue for you.

Rune_Relic

seanolan wrote: »

Because people don't WANT to study a trait for weeks or level up enchanting for months to be made weaker. Sorry this is a confusing issue for you.

Want balance....don't want negative side of equation.
Yes... I understand your issue too.

seanolan

By your idea of horizontal progression, shouldn't we give up stamina and magicka when we level up and raise health for instance? When we gain a skill, we should lose access to another? You fail at understanding what people are talking about with balance.

Rune_Relic

seanolan wrote: »

By your idea of horizontal progression, shouldn't we give up stamina and magicka when we level up and raise health for instance? When we gain a skill, we should lose access to another? You fail at understanding what people are talking about with balance.

Where do I say health/stamina/magicka attributes should not also balance/compromise magicka/health/stamina based abilities ?
I think I am one of only a few that has any inkling of the reality required to create balance to be honest.

But humour me.... what does balance mean for you.

Probitas

Some people who play games never want to have to choose between more power here vs less power there. That's too hard. Make it all positive. Really stupid design basis, but there ya go.

TequilaFire

Everyone has the same chance to earn and choose the buff within rank, there is your balance.
If you spend the effort and choose the right traits - more power to you. (pun intended)

Rune_Relic

Probitas wrote: »

Some people who play games never want to have to choose between more power here vs less power there. That's too hard. Make it all positive. Really stupid design basis, but there ya go.

Yes....granted. But isn't that part of the problem that NO MMO since conception has ever managed to balance their classes according to everyone on here.

They all want the shiny new toy.....without paying for it.

Tabbycat

It's up to ZOS to balance things behind the scenes so we don't have to worry about all that negative stuff.

During beta, traits were much more powerful than they are now. They were toned down quite a bit before launch. That's balancing. When something is too strong, it's ZOS's job to fine tune it so that it's not over-powered. If they are doing their job right (and some argue they aren't), we won't need negative side effects to balance things out.

Nestor

The positives are balanced by Scarcity. Choices determine what you buff and what you leave alone.

For example, I have two ring slots and one necklace slot. If I select Magic Regen for all the rings/necklace, I can't apply anymore weapon power or fire resist. If Choose Exploration for an armor trait, I have to give up Impenetrable or Infused. If I want to to sprint farther, I won't be able to Reinforce my armor.

RSram

Each trait is different, so you have to figure out which trait suits your game play style. The negative side of this is that you opponent may pick a better trait combination than you have; thus kicking your butt.

JessieColt

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.

Why don't all of the traits, enchantments, armour sets ect all include Buff+Nerf ?
Why aren't you penalised in one way for becoming stronger in another ?
Why doesn't all the items you can obtain have negatives to automatically balance the positives ?

http://tamrieljournal.com/crafted-item-sets-eso/
example of pure buffs.

I think you are confused about how this works.

You already are penalized for becoming stronger in one area and not in another.

If I increase my Stamina, I am penalized by not having more Health or Magicka.

If I take a Foreign language class to learn Russian, I do not automatically forget how to speak English.

AlexDougherty

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.

Why don't all of the traits, enchantments, armour sets ect all include Buff+Nerf ?
Why aren't you penalised in one way for becoming stronger in another ?
Why doesn't all the items you can obtain have negatives to automatically balance the positives ?

http://tamrieljournal.com/crafted-item-sets-eso/
example of pure buffs.

Because the Game gets Harder the further along you get. If this was purely PVP then maybe your idea would have merit, but in a game where enemies use all types of attacks, a weakness will just getting you killed before you complete any quests.

Next!

reften

research "opportunity cost". There is a negative to using each trait.

PBpsy

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression.This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

.

Provide sources for that statement.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.
.

For each stat point in Magicka you miss the opportunity to get more Health, Stamina.
If you are going heavy armor you just miss the Magica cost reduction from Light and the weapon crit, cost reduction from medium.
Potions have 1 ,2, or 3 traits. The 3 trait potions however give a smaller amount for individual stats than 2 trait food. You many still chose 2 stat food for min/max.

You generally have to sacrifice something for something. Stamina DPS or Magicka DPS, Defenses/Heals or DPS,Very high DPS or medium/high very sustainable DPS.

driosketch

I get what you're saying. It's an interesting concept. I do think that traits with niche usefulness already present a trade off. But maybe the high demand traits like Impenetrable could use a side penalty to counter FotM syndrome.

Example: Impenetrable protects against crits, but, in keeping with the theme, makes your armor stiffer thus increasing stamina use to dodge roll. Well-fitted could cancel out the penalty 1 to 1 per piece, making the ratio of trait types a consideration.

Katinas

Why do you drink Restore Health potions when you are close to death, why not Ravage Health? Why to you sprint and run away when you accidentally aggro a pack of mobs, why don't you switch to walk mode?

Rune_Relic

JessieColt wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.

Why don't all of the traits, enchantments, armour sets ect all include Buff+Nerf ?
Why aren't you penalised in one way for becoming stronger in another ?
Why doesn't all the items you can obtain have negatives to automatically balance the positives ?

http://tamrieljournal.com/crafted-item-sets-eso/
example of pure buffs.

I think you are confused about how this works.

You already are penalized for becoming stronger in one area and not in another.

If I increase my Stamina, I am penalized by not having more Health or Magicka.

If I take a Foreign language class to learn Russian, I do not automatically forget how to speak English.

I am not arguing attribute points don't affect balance.
I am arguing balance is much harder to achieve because the buffs themselves aren't balanced.
If the buffs to armour and such were balanced with nerfs....it would be far easier for ZOS to balance the combat (without relying on the attributes).

At the moment I put all points in health and then enchant all armour to max out stamina or magicka to the soft caps....how is that make me stronger or weaker ? How is that penalising me when I can be tank/dps/healer just by a respec ?

Rune_Relic

PBpsy wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression.This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

.

Provide sources for that statement.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.
.

For each stat point in Magicka you miss the opportunity to get more Health, Stamina.
If you are going heavy armor you just miss the Magica cost reduction from Light and the weapon crit, cost reduction from medium.
Potions have 1 ,2, or 3 traits. The 3 trait potions however give a smaller amount for individual stats than 2 trait food. You many still chose 2 stat food for min/max.

You generally have to sacrifice something for something. Stamina DPS or Magicka DPS, Defenses/Heals or DPS,Very high DPS or medium/high very sustainable DPS.

What does this mean?
◾You’ll have to make commitments to be the best in a particular area.
◾More varied builds, better interdependence between builds.
◾Some abilities will have to change, i.e. armor buffs won’t stack
◾Itemization will be much more important.
◾The dynamics of combat will change, particularly at max-level.

How will more casual players react to the scope of these changes?

We hope that the way these changes are constructed will make character construction feel more meaningful and significant, so some things will be different, for example light armor wearers will probably feel a bit more squishy in the new system, but by the same token heavy armor will feel more significant. The changes are making trade-offs more meaningful.

We can’t just put the Champion System on top of the current advancement system. -Paul Sage

ZOS has to balance making players stronger with providing an ample challenge to players. This means a complete re-balance of game and ability mechanics is necessary. Current granularity of stats does not fit well with the addition of small percentage bonuses. Adding a 1% bonus on top of a base level of 40 isn’t meaningful to the player. Simply adding points to soft-capped abilities would be bad.

Benefits of the Current Systems
◾Helps to prevent “bad builds”
◾Freedom of how to play – allows players to go over limits

Problems with the Current System
◾Trade-offs are not pronounced
◾Too easy to hit soft caps
◾Balance is harder

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

Resueht

Nestor wrote: »

The positives are balanced by Scarcity. Choices determine what you buff and what you leave alone.

For example, I have two ring slots and one necklace slot. If I select Magic Regen for all the rings/necklace, I can't apply anymore weapon power or fire resist. If Choose Exploration for an armor trait, I have to give up Impenetrable or Infused. If I want to to sprint farther, I won't be able to Reinforce my armor.

This.

You shouldn't be harmed when equipping something. Rather, you should just give up gaining something in exchange for having more of another, e.g. gaining more magicka instead of gaining more stamina.

babylon

OP you'd probably like Ryzom and the stanza system (you make your own skills, and each skill you make has penalties that you need to offset).

starkerealm

Nestor wrote: »

The positives are balanced by Scarcity. Choices determine what you buff and what you leave alone.

For example, I have two ring slots and one necklace slot. If I select Magic Regen for all the rings/necklace, I can't apply anymore weapon power or fire resist. If Choose Exploration for an armor trait, I have to give up Impenetrable or Infused. If I want to to sprint farther, I won't be able to Reinforce my armor.

There is an issue, at least with Reinforce, Infused, and Weighted. The benefit you get from each piece is not equal. Divine hand pieces will give you exactly the same benefit as divine chest pieces, but, reinforced chest pieces give you more armor (because the value scales). Infused looks like it should be even, but it's not, because hands, belts, boots, and shoulders actually receive reduced power on their enchantments, while shields, helms, chests, and pants receive full power enchants. I'm guessing about weighted, because weapons do have different attack speeds, and I'm not sure about some of the weapons traits.

Rune_Relic

Katinas wrote: »

Why do you drink Restore Health potions when you are close to death, why not Ravage Health? Why to you sprint and run away when you accidentally aggro a pack of mobs, why don't you switch to walk mode?

eh ? lol.

Rune_Relic

Thanks for the feedback.
I think I shoudl have chosen my words more carefully though as I was referring to traits in general rather than literal traits added when crafting.
Hence I linked to all the various crafting sets and their buffs [rather than crafting traits]

I guess I should have given a clearer example which is my failing.

So...

Set 1
chest armour = + 100 armour - 100 spell resist.
2h axe = 5% armour penetration - 5% spell penetration
ring = +3 health regen -3 magicka regen.

anyway....hopefully you get the idea of what I was trying to say now when comparing weapon sets.

Clearly a sorc would not touch this set with a barge pole. A DK may well consider it though if it enhances his stats. The sets become much more specialised and niche and even "unsuitable".

I see it as the only way to balance a system is to make it dualistic. How else can you get all stages between if you dont allow two extremes.

Rune_Relic

babylon wrote: »

OP you'd probably like Ryzom and the stanza system (you make your own skills, and each skill you make has penalties that you need to offset).

Tah ...I will have a nose.

purple-magicb16_ESO

JessieColt wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The objective of ESO is to be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. This mean players should become more specialised and unique rather than more powerful.

Yet all the traits you add all buff this or buff that.
All the armour sets buff this or buff that.
All the potions and the food buff this or buff that.

If the game is about horizontal progression it is all about sacrifice just as much as gain. So the question.

Why don't all of the traits, enchantments, armour sets ect all include Buff+Nerf ?
Why aren't you penalised in one way for becoming stronger in another ?
Why doesn't all the items you can obtain have negatives to automatically balance the positives ?

http://tamrieljournal.com/crafted-item-sets-eso/
example of pure buffs.

I think you are confused about how this works.

You already are penalized for becoming stronger in one area and not in another.

If I increase my Stamina, I am penalized by not having more Health or Magicka.

If I take a Foreign language class to learn Russian, I do not automatically forget how to speak English.

Agree. The downside is that they make you choose. You can't buff everything to max level. If you choose to buff stam more than magika then there will be those out there that will have higher magika than you. Like you say, b/c I learn something new doesn't mean I have to forget something that I have learned previous. Just getting tired of those that want to nerf this game into the ground and sabotage it until its absolutely worthless and no one wants to play.

Tamanous

Boons and Banes have been part of pnp rpg games for decades. There exist for a reason.

Mmo developers have simply lost touch with the roots of this genre yet run right smack into the proliferation problems associated with horizontal progression.

Also games are not about what players want. Games change to the need of the game only. This may align with what players want but not always.