Change Block to 180*

Mykah

The ability to actively block in an MMO is something unique to ESO. I think it is a great feature, and has the potential to make combat be more engaging and dynamic for the players.

The problem with the current 360* block system is that it actually makes combat LESS dynamic. Why? Because the direction you are facing has zero impact on the defensive state of you character, meaning that facing is a stagnent input for players in general. This is the OPPOSITE of dynamic gameplay, and really takes away from the dynamic nature of close quarters combat.

Traditionally in any fight ever, real or video game, standing behind your target is beneficial because 1. You are hitting them 2. They aren't hitting you. Of course no one wants to just LET their opponent stand behind them and kick them in the butt, so what the players had was a dynamic jockying for position in which they tried to keep their target infront of them while not standing in front of their target's attacks.

This is very fun stuff. It rewards skill, but also puts a skill check on one player fighting against two players. It makes positioning important, it makes paying attention important, it gives players a reason to utilize their environment. Simply put, its just good gameplay.

All of this is missing from ESO. 360* Blocking makes ESOs combat less dynamic than the most archaic of games. It is stagnent, rewards itemization over strategy, punishes melee builds, makes positioning unimportant, makes the environment unimportant. Simply put, ITS BAD GAMEPLAY.

360* blocking has stunted ESO's potential as an amazing and dynamic game, I would like to see that changed.

Add your thoughts and suggestions, but please do not let this thread devolve into bickering about class/weapon/armor debates. Blocking is a game mechanic that effects all classes and builds in different ways. I personally do not think class/weapon/armors can even be balanced until this core mechanic issue is adressed.

Rune_Relic

If you can stack....
armour (360)
stance [defensive posture] (360)
shield (180/270)
...then I agree.

This makes you more vulnerable at the back without making you 1 shot kill without stealth.

Problem is what you say is true for physical shields....you are on much shakier ground with magical shields. Should physical shields be punished and magical shields have 360 ?

darkdruidssb14_ESO

I would agree with changing it only if the game had player collision detection. If you strip the 360 block without collision detection then people will run through you to stab you in the back. It's not going to be the dynamic combat you are looking for.

They aren't going to add collision detection on players because that creates a tremendous load on the server. Servers already having issues just running large scale combat without collision detection.

So if they were to add collision detection they would likely have to reduce population caps in Cyrodiil...

That's a lot to change just to get blocking to be realistic.

Artemiisia

your last thread
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/132940/360-block-has-to-be-changed-sign-the-petition#latest

got closed, and then you are s...... enough to make one, get over it dude

Mykah

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

eNumbra

Block is 360, Sneak attack is 180.

One of these should change.

Mykah

Artemiisia wrote: »

your last thread
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/132940/360-block-has-to-be-changed-sign-the-petition#latest

got closed, and then you are s...... enough to make one, get over it dude

It was closed for being a petition, I was unaware petitions were against forum policy, so I remade the thread as a discussion.

The fact you went and dug up that old post speaks volumes as to your agenda though.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Mykah wrote: »

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

Umm... actually I remember rogues in WoW abusing running through characters in 1v1s all the time. I played a long time ago, but they did it.

The problem will come from server position detection. If the players are out of sync then a blocked hit might become a unblocked hit and your left scratching your head as to why it wasn't blocked when you were actively blocking.

Ever kill someone in Cyrodiil and their body moves a few meters from where you killed them on your screen? That's the desync I'm talking about. The way combat works now that desync on position doesn't affect your block effectiveness.

Collision Detection helps to force position detection... players have to be more sync'd for it to actually work the way it's supposed to. It would prevent someone from running through you and pressing attack as they hit your back side.

Nox_Aeterna

Nope , it shouldnt change simple because ESO only got 2 megaservers.

Tons of player a 200/300+ ping.

Those players are already at a big disadvantage right now without any need to make it even worse a gap.

Samadhi

eNumbra wrote: »

Block is 360, Sneak attack is 180.

One of these should change.

Would go for the 360 degree Sneak Attack.

Still have to make the attack from undetected either way.

Xsorus

Mykah wrote: »

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

In both of these games, if someone wasn't blocking for the split second..it didn't mean they would instantly die.

In this game..It does

Davadin

I'd say no. Leave it as is.

But people blocking shouldn't be able to do offensive skill, that's problem.

eNumbra

Samadhi wrote: »

Still have to make the attack from undetected either way.

of course; and that's the point. If you're undetected, how does it cease being a sneak attack?

Xsorus

dsoegiartob16_ESO wrote: »

I'd say no. Leave it as is.

But people blocking shouldn't be able to do offensive skill, that's problem.

That suggestion is just as bad as the 180 degree suggestion.

Agrippa_Invisus

The problem with weakening blocking is the absurdly low TTK (time to kill) already in this game. It shouldn't take moments to kill someone, even if you get the drop on them.

There should be enough time for each players reactions and reflexes to come into it. This is why people have been shouting so much about snipers killing them in a split second. There's no skill involved (in either side), just a macro, and insta-death.

Blocking is one of the few ways past this.

Instead of nerfing blocking, perhaps it's time to consider changing the things that make blocking constantly necessary and increasing the amount of time it takes to kill an opposing player. If the fight lasted longer, keeping block up the whole time should completely drain away a stamina pool, leaving them vulnerable to later CC.

WoW, for instance, has been fighting for years to try to get away from the insta-gib and stun lock to death mechanics, precisely because it's no fun to play against.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

The problem with weakening blocking is the absurdly low TTK (time to kill) already in this game. It shouldn't take moments to kill someone, even if you get the drop on them.

There should be enough time for each players reactions and reflexes to come into it. This is why people have been shouting so much about snipers killing them in a split second. There's no skill involved (in either side), just a macro, and insta-death.

Blocking is one of the few ways past this.

Instead of nerfing blocking, perhaps it's time to consider changing the things that make blocking constantly necessary and increasing the amount of time it takes to kill an opposing player. If the fight lasted longer, keeping block up the whole time should completely drain away a stamina pool, leaving them vulnerable to later CC.

WoW, for instance, has been fighting for years to try to get away from the insta-gib and stun lock to death mechanics, precisely because it's no fun to play against.

Ttk is only low on unbreakable cc'd targets and those who don't know that you can break cc as long as it's not a combination of knockdown and root or snare (in unbreakable cc). If someone attacks you when your resources are low then absolutely the ttk should be low. This game suffers from no cc immunity that is the root of its problems. All of these suggestions would make for a much more skillful dynamic game if only they would actually implement the cc immunity timers they said they did already. In addition to that and much to the dislike of people who like to spam abilities this game needs more cast times. It also needs cooldowns I would.say on all gap closing abilities as well as ultimates. It is not in their philosophy though and they wont ever admit it was a flawed design . Just soldier on and keep beating the horse I say.

Ezareth

I think the concept is shortsighted and flawed and not only because it would be a huge nerf to sorcs.

Realism has zero value in a fantasy video game and realism being implemented has never added to the fun factor of any game I've played.

I've never understood why people complain about block. It is easily mitigated by a host of other abilities just like every other ability. Why do people continually complain about strong abilities they can't defeat when there are already ways to counter them?

It all comes down to a simple L2P.

Lava_Croft

180 degree blocking combined with client-side prediction and the unpredictable nature of large-scale PvP (read: lag) is a very, very bad idea.

Sleep

In my opinion blocking should be directional. I prefer 90°.

Dudis

Piercing Spear II
WHILE USING AEDRIC SPEAR ABILITES
Increases Critical Strike chance by 10%. Increases damage vs. Blocking targets by 10%.

Just need some more of that stuff in the game, maybe not in the form as passives though, since then everyone would just have them. Armor trait maybe?


Problem is that the time to kill without block in this game is really low. If you nerf blocking it'd basically make it impossible to fight larger numbers on your own.

Rune_Relic

Mykah wrote: »

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

Actually CD is required for the visceral feel of blocking.
That is why CD was introduced in PVE (I argued for it at the time)...but was not put into PVP due to load and griefing concerns.

This is the main reason my arse stays in PVE.

cazlonb16_ESO

Sleep wrote: »

In my opinion blocking should be directional. I prefer 90°.

As has been pointed out numerous times already, that would make Block completely unusable in PvP thanks to sync issues and lag. Which I have to assume is the real intention behind all of these threads anyway.

Mograineb16_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

dsoegiartob16_ESO wrote: »

I'd say no. Leave it as is.

But people blocking shouldn't be able to do offensive skill, that's problem.

That suggestion is just as bad as the 180 degree suggestion.

It is not, attacking while blocking is even more ridicilous. Block should drop during the attack animation.

Tankqull

Mykah wrote: »

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

youll just have to fix root than as it would make DKs insanly more stronger than they are allready.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Tankqull wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

youll just have to fix root than as it would make DKs insanly more stronger than they are allready.

If the cc immunity worked as intended this would be a non issue roots I mean.

As far as blocking being 360 I will restate the main idea behind it. Laziness. the second largest concern might be tied with the first actually. The lag that would be created with positional checking. If the server had to check and determine position in addition to everything else it would be more of a lag nightmare than it is already(player collisions would add to.this as well). They need to invest some money in server upgrades so that this lag can go away. Seems like.they really missed the mark on what they were trying to achieve. Why have positional damage if block is non positional? Lots of questions and the naysayers to this thread seem to overlook that particular fact. If you want blocking to mitigate 360 I want my attacks to act like they are always hitting you from behind seems reasonable.

Mykah

I really don't understand all these posts pretending to be Internet Latency PHDs claiming 180* block is impossible because of lag.

I use a reticle to face my target with latency, no issues there.
I backstab targets within 180* with latency, no issues there.
I spin 180* to catch sorcs who BE through me, no issues there.
I see sorcs BE 180* turn and BE again, hitting a dozen targets, no issues there.

I don't believe 180* block would be broken by this imaginary lag monster people are claiming. I think people are scapegoating lag in place of rational argument because they want their undynamic 360* block crutch to stay alive without thinking about what they are doing,

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Changing block from 360 probably will never happen. Changing the blocking effectiveness of lighter armors would be much easier.

Mykah

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Changing block from 360 probably will never happen. Changing the blocking effectiveness of lighter armors would be much easier.

Or at the very least make skills only fire when not blocking akin to weapon attacks.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Mykah wrote: »

I really don't understand all these posts pretending to be Internet Latency PHDs claiming 180* block is impossible because of lag.

I use a reticle to face my target with latency, no issues there.
I backstab targets within 180* with latency, no issues there.
I spin 180* to catch sorcs who BE through me, no issues there.
I see sorcs BE 180* turn and BE again, hitting a dozen targets, no issues there.

I don't believe 180* block would be broken by this imaginary lag monster people are claiming. I think people are scapegoating lag in place of rational argument because they want their undynamic 360* block crutch to stay alive without thinking about what they are doing,

It would in fact create more lag I don't know if you know any computers that do more calculations and run faster but I do not.

eliisra

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Changing block from 360 probably will never happen. Changing the blocking effectiveness of lighter armors would be much easier.

Well that. It's Sword and Board, combined with enchants and class passives, that allows longer blocking sessions, not so much armour types. Which is awfully strange to me.

I can actually block just as well in light on my DK. Basically because light allows me to spam skills and ultimates, which gives me loads of stamina back.

Heavy passive x5 pieces does give you a 20% cost reduction on block. But heavy also suffers from lousy recourse management, both stamina, ulti and magicka regain is shut down, so the reduction isn't all that fancy.

Ezareth

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

If they run through me they have to do a 180* to hit me, which gives me an equal opportunity to also turn around and block or attack them, this IS the dynamic gameplay I am looking for.

DaoC had this, WoW had this, its why melee combat is fun, its engaging. Its not just about block being "realistic", thats not my point here, its about movement being important in pvp, instead of stagnent and one dimensional.

Collision detection is not necessary for this dynamic element to exist in ESO.

youll just have to fix root than as it would make DKs insanly more stronger than they are allready.

If the cc immunity worked as intended this would be a non issue roots I mean.

As far as blocking being 360 I will restate the main idea behind it. Laziness. the second largest concern might be tied with the first actually. The lag that would be created with positional checking. If the server had to check and determine position in addition to everything else it would be more of a lag nightmare than it is already(player collisions would add to.this as well). They need to invest some money in server upgrades so that this lag can go away. Seems like.they really missed the mark on what they were trying to achieve. Why have positional damage if block is non positional? Lots of questions and the naysayers to this thread seem to overlook that particular fact. If you want blocking to mitigate 360 I want my attacks to act like they are always hitting you from behind seems reasonable.

Lag wouldn't be increased. Positional checking already exists in the game in combat.

Asking "Why" on a series of arbitrary questions isn't proving a point.

Blocking is *balanced* right now. It isn't overpowered or unfair or broken. People who want to change it have personal reasoning behind doing so. It wouldn't make PvP more fun for the majority of people.

Blocking does nothing through shields. It doesn't mitigate AOE and the damage from many abilities and unless properly specced it takes a ton of stamina to block an ability. Knowing *when* to block and when not to is something that is fun and is one of the few combat player skills one learns in this game.

Adding 180 degree protection adds a giant weakness to block and thus people who are specced into it will most likely unspec it and the game combat loses a lot of the complexity it has today.

I'm tired of all of these whiners crying for everything that is strong to get nerfed so they can homogenize this game and turn it into a giant WoW-clone.

L2P please.