Why arena PVP can't work in ESO.

Phinix1

Snit wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

I love PvP, but I haven't always loved it...
A wise man once told me: you learn the most from the fights you don't win.

Good post. I think you hit on two important issues:

• PvP can be a shock for PvE players when they start, and an unpleasant one. In PvE, you expect to win all your fights. In PvP, winning half of them is pretty good. The goalposts have moved quite dramatically.
• Those losses are how you learn. If you have an instinct to re-examine just what the heck happened, you can often adjust something in your build or behavior. Oddly, many people who are excellent about this in endgame PvE somehow lose that mindset in PvP.

I'm another former PvE-only player who made the switch to PvP-primary. For me, that was a while back (Warhammer Online launch). I've enjoyed MMO's quite a bit more since

I'm afraid the problem with this willingness to adapt and learn is directly due to the combat system in this game not allowing it.

In other games I could have DOZENS of abilities on my bar, and "adapt" on the fly by using whichever were appropriate to the encounter. In this game, I am locked into 5 abilities per bar, and cannot change them unless out of combat.

Also, completely changing your build to negate one ability leaves you in the same boat. The next encounter is completely different, but you are still in combat until the entire siege/skirmish/resource attack/healing ticks/nearby squirrels has ended and you are finally out of combat to change your setup again.

This makes PVP in this game completely stupid IMO. No adaptability, no intelligent play, just create entire builds to counter one class's ability and die to the next class. Pick your cards before going into a fight, and die to whatever class you encounter that negates it because this game doesn't let you adapt.

This is why arena-style PVP could never work in this game. Balance is impossible with this current combat-locked implementation of the 5-skill bar system.

Arsenic_Touch

Should be titled why arena pvp won't work, but they already said they're going to try and add it. Which is highly disappointing.

kosac

no, arena system is welcome.. many ppl waiting for it..

Arsenic_Touch

kosac wrote: »

no, arena system is welcome.. many ppl waiting for it..

Actually, they aren't and no it's not welcome. A small subset of pvpers that post on the forums want it. Yet every poll on the subject has shown a drastically different outcome.

Phinix1

Fixed the title.

rophez_ESO

I'm looking forward to an arena. I hope they add it. You're argument is interesting, but there's nothing saying you have to always win. It's fun to see how your setup plays out vs other people's. You learn and adapt. There are tons of abilities to choose from and many more ways to specialize your character when Champion and Spellcrafting systems come out.

On top of that, imagine it's a 3 or 4 man arena. Now you've exponentially increased the amount skills available to each team. Synergies will be fun to figure out.

On another note, it doesn't have to hurt Cyrodiil. Make tokens to enter the arena a random loot item from your Cyrodiil reward mail. 1 token = 1 round in the arena. If you wanna play a lot in the arena, you're going to have to play a lot in Cyrodiil.

Faded_Architecture

First off, there is no move in the entire game that requires reworking both skill bars to counter. Secondly, I rarely find myself needing more than ten abilities at any given time. If you can't fight someone else who has the same restrictions, maybe you should change your build to see if something new could work instead of saying "it's clearly broken so I give up." Take, for example, Reflective Scales. You could keep targeting the DK with your single target spells and die from your own attacks, or you could switch to an area move for 4 seconds then back to whatever move you normally use once Scales wears off. Spamming the move WILL wear down their magicka, you just have to be patient. Look at every skill with this mindset and you should be a lot better off. Will you win every fight? No. There's too many variations you could run into for ten skills to cover them all, but you should at least be able to win consistently.

Nox_Aeterna

They will add it and like in any other game that did it , the balance will be blow to hell if they dont divide it from the rest of the game when they try to make it work.

When you say your PvP is going to be X and then add Y , which is complete opposite and by its very nature might just destroy X , since arena balancing will have nothing to do with cyro balancing , you are taking a leap of faith.

Arsenic_Touch

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

They will add it and like in any other game that did it , the balance will be blow to hell if they dont divide it from the rest of the game when they try to make it work.

When you say your PvP is going to be X and then add Y , which is complete opposite and by its very nature might just destroy X , since arena balancing will have nothing to do with cyro balancing , you are taking a leap of faith.

Someone who actually gets it.

Rune_Relic

OP... I think you are writing frm the view of solo.
Working as a team can cater for the build one person cannot be generic enough to overcome.

Phinix1

ZOS is historically TERRIBLE at balancing. It has taken 7 months for Stamina to even begin to approach magicka, so adding more variables into the equation sounds like a recipe for disaster, or job security, if subscribers had that kind of patience.

jrgray93

This is why I try my best to make a build that excels in as many situations as possible, as opposed to countering one specific type of player. I would welcome arena-style combat when the game reaches a point where as many class bugs and obvious balance concerns are hammered out.

I understand a lot of people aren't that interested in arenas, but look at trials. Look at how many people voted on polls saying they don't care about that particular content. Chances are, most new content that isn't fluff will not appeal to the majority of players. That's the nature of the beast. That's also no reason to say no to those of us who want it.

As for the argument about adapting to counter, it is intriguing but I think it ultimately won't matter in a team arena setup. Solo? Sure. In teams, you aren't just working to counter others but to compliment your partner's / partners' setup(s). It isn't going to be as simple as rock-paper-scissors.

Arsenic_Touch

Are you people deliberating ignoring that he's talking about balance issues? do you think that this company and it's terrible track record with balance issues are suddenly going to get things right when they add even more variables to the mix? wow can't even get it right and they've had a larger dev pool, more money and YEARS to work on it.

There is only one way that arena would work. That would require the complete separation of stats between pvp and pve. That way they can focus on balancing in two different systems and then a third if they want to be really balanced and separate cyrodiil from arena stat wise. Without that, it's a very bad idea.

edit: oh look, a window licker is going around and marking LOL on everything not supporting arena pvp. How quaint.

Nox_Aeterna

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

ZOS is historically TERRIBLE at balancing. It has taken 7 months for Stamina to even begin to approach magicka, so adding more variables into the equation sounds like a recipe for disaster, or job security, if subscribers had that kind of patience.

Well you know what they are also really good at?

Horrible decisions.

The ability to think ahead in their team is really bad. It is all about trying to plug a whole by making an even bigger one on the other side of the hull.

Csub

If they add PvP Arena, I hope they will add new skill trees which you can only progress in PvP and you can only use these abilities in arenas and you can only use them in arenas. They can be similar to other abilities, I don't mind, but this way if they don't have to balance the whole game around the arena, only those spells.

jrgray93

Everyone's idea of "balance" is different. I think WoW never quite landed on where they should be because they change a billion things at once and try to reinvent the wheel each expansion for at least one class, throwing a big wrench in whatever progress they made.

ZOS may be moving slow, but they've stated that class skills will not dramatically change at any point. So who knows where we will be down the road.

But like anyone would tell you, MMOs are never balanced. It's an uphill, never-ending struggle.

Faded_Architecture

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Are you people deliberating ignoring that he's talking about balance issues? do you think that this company and it's terrible track record with balance issues are suddenly going to get things right when they add even more variables to the mix? wow can't even get it right and they've had a larger dev pool, more money and YEARS to work on it.

There is only one way that arena would work. That would require the complete separation of stats between pvp and pve. That way they can focus on balancing in two different systems and then a third if they want to be really balanced and separate cyrodiil from arena stat wise. Without that, it's a very bad idea.

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Arsenic_Touch

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Are you being deliberately obtuse here? I am not talking about adapting my playstyle or not making it work. I am talking about the balance of the game.

Khami

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

kosac wrote: »

no, arena system is welcome.. many ppl waiting for it..

Actually, they aren't and no it's not welcome. A small subset of pvpers that post on the forums want it. Yet every poll on the subject has shown a drastically different outcome.

An arena type PvP is the only type of PvP I'm remotely interested in doing. Running around in a big zerg in Cryodiil is not fun.

Faded_Architecture

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Are you being deliberately obtuse here? I am not talking about adapting my playstyle or not making it work. I am talking about the balance of the game.

I was trying to point out that balance in this situation is irrelevant. The balance of the game as it stands is not nearly bad enough to warrant the thought that 1v1 or 4v4 can't work, and if you think it is, then refer to my previous statement.

Nox_Aeterna

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Are you people deliberating ignoring that he's talking about balance issues? do you think that this company and it's terrible track record with balance issues are suddenly going to get things right when they add even more variables to the mix? wow can't even get it right and they've had a larger dev pool, more money and YEARS to work on it.

There is only one way that arena would work. That would require the complete separation of stats between pvp and pve. That way they can focus on balancing in two different systems and then a third if they want to be really balanced and separate cyrodiil from arena stat wise. Without that, it's a very bad idea.

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Bad idea simple because this is not something to go back on later.

Once they add it , it is there to stay.

If it makes the whole balance a horrible mess and breaks things even more , that is it. There is no "Oh sorry , we will remove it now because its balance doesnt fit the rest of the game".

It is a leap of faith , either you land on something and survive or you land with your face on the floor.

Small fights balance in a controlled environment X cyrodiil big open battles balance. They are not the same at all.

Faded_Architecture

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Are you people deliberating ignoring that he's talking about balance issues? do you think that this company and it's terrible track record with balance issues are suddenly going to get things right when they add even more variables to the mix? wow can't even get it right and they've had a larger dev pool, more money and YEARS to work on it.

There is only one way that arena would work. That would require the complete separation of stats between pvp and pve. That way they can focus on balancing in two different systems and then a third if they want to be really balanced and separate cyrodiil from arena stat wise. Without that, it's a very bad idea.

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Bad idea simple because this is not something to go back on later.

Once they add it , it is there to stay.

If it makes the whole balance a horrible mess and breaks things even more , that is it. There is no "Oh sorry , we will remove it now because its balance doesnt fit the rest of the game".

It is a leap of faith , either you land on something and survive or you land with your face on the floor.

Small fights balance in a controlled environment X cyrodiil big open battles balance. They are not the same at all.

The thing about the arena fights is that they will be, from what I understand, self-contained and separate from the rest of the game. You can enter them when you wish, you can adjust your builds specifically for them, and it doesn't affect any of the rest of the game outside of possible earned gear, if they include that. I fail to see why an arena that does not affect gameplay anywhere else is a problem in the way you're suggesting it is. People already fight in small groups in Cyrodiil, this is just a more controlled environment for it. How could a self-contained arena affect balance anywhere else? And if you're implying that the arena balance won't work, have you tried it yet? Have you gone 4v4 against other players? I see no evidence that group fights are unbalanced, so what is your argument? Please, explain it to me. I'm trying to see your viewpoint here, but I'm failing to see the reasoning.

Nox_Aeterna

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Are you people deliberating ignoring that he's talking about balance issues? do you think that this company and it's terrible track record with balance issues are suddenly going to get things right when they add even more variables to the mix? wow can't even get it right and they've had a larger dev pool, more money and YEARS to work on it.

There is only one way that arena would work. That would require the complete separation of stats between pvp and pve. That way they can focus on balancing in two different systems and then a third if they want to be really balanced and separate cyrodiil from arena stat wise. Without that, it's a very bad idea.

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Bad idea simple because this is not something to go back on later.

Once they add it , it is there to stay.

If it makes the whole balance a horrible mess and breaks things even more , that is it. There is no "Oh sorry , we will remove it now because its balance doesnt fit the rest of the game".

It is a leap of faith , either you land on something and survive or you land with your face on the floor.

Small fights balance in a controlled environment X cyrodiil big open battles balance. They are not the same at all.

The thing about the arena fights is that they will be, from what I understand, self-contained and separate from the rest of the game. You can enter them when you wish, you can adjust your builds specifically for them, and it doesn't affect any of the rest of the game outside of possible earned gear, if they include that. I fail to see why an arena that does not affect gameplay anywhere else is a problem in the way you're suggesting it is. People already fight in small groups in Cyrodiil, this is just a more controlled environment for it. How could a self-contained arena affect balance anywhere else? And if you're implying that the arena balance won't work, have you tried it yet? Have you gone 4v4 against other players? I see no evidence that group fights are unbalanced, so what is your argument? Please, explain it to me. I'm trying to see your viewpoint here, but I'm failing to see the reasoning.

When they change skills Y , X and Z to fit the arena eviroment , that might make those skill suffer a change that makes no sense whatsoever when we stop to think from a Cyro/PvE point of view.

This already happens with Cyro and PvE in general already , but these are more open than an Arena PvP will ever be , therefore the gap is much smaller.

Focused small 1x1/4x4 fights will require skills to change to be balanced in those kinds of fights , that simple.

Cyro is not focused on small closed and controlled fights mate , when they add it , you will see the real complaning about balance issues start and many of those issues will be about things that will only break the balance in cyro and PvE in general.

That is why the only way to even try to implement this in a resonable way is diving the balance , literally making skill X work in one way in the arenas and another way in Cyro/PvE , but that takes a lot more of work ofc , so it remains to be seem if this is the path they will take or not.

Nox_Aeterna

Also stop and think mate.

One thing is to have small fights in Cyro , where you lose or win , doesnt change much , you can be annoyed or complain a little and that is it.

Another thing is to play with arenas , where you get points for winning/losing , there are ranks ...

People will complain FAR MORE about balance there than they will about cyro , just wait :P.

Faded_Architecture

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Faded_Architecture wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Are you people deliberating ignoring that he's talking about balance issues? do you think that this company and it's terrible track record with balance issues are suddenly going to get things right when they add even more variables to the mix? wow can't even get it right and they've had a larger dev pool, more money and YEARS to work on it.

There is only one way that arena would work. That would require the complete separation of stats between pvp and pve. That way they can focus on balancing in two different systems and then a third if they want to be really balanced and separate cyrodiil from arena stat wise. Without that, it's a very bad idea.

Separation is irrelevant if you're willing to adapt your playstyle/your group's playstyle to new content. Adapting to new situations is basically required for the endgame content, as well as a must for Cyrodiil. If your attitude going into this is that you can't possibly make it work, then it can't possibly work for you because you've already given up on even trying. Give it a chance first, at the very least.

Bad idea simple because this is not something to go back on later.

Once they add it , it is there to stay.

If it makes the whole balance a horrible mess and breaks things even more , that is it. There is no "Oh sorry , we will remove it now because its balance doesnt fit the rest of the game".

It is a leap of faith , either you land on something and survive or you land with your face on the floor.

Small fights balance in a controlled environment X cyrodiil big open battles balance. They are not the same at all.

The thing about the arena fights is that they will be, from what I understand, self-contained and separate from the rest of the game. You can enter them when you wish, you can adjust your builds specifically for them, and it doesn't affect any of the rest of the game outside of possible earned gear, if they include that. I fail to see why an arena that does not affect gameplay anywhere else is a problem in the way you're suggesting it is. People already fight in small groups in Cyrodiil, this is just a more controlled environment for it. How could a self-contained arena affect balance anywhere else? And if you're implying that the arena balance won't work, have you tried it yet? Have you gone 4v4 against other players? I see no evidence that group fights are unbalanced, so what is your argument? Please, explain it to me. I'm trying to see your viewpoint here, but I'm failing to see the reasoning.

When they change skills Y , X and Z to fit the arena eviroment , that might make those skill suffer a change that makes no sense whatsoever when we stop to think from a Cyro/PvE point of view.

This already happens with Cyro and PvE in general already , but these are more open than an Arena PvP will ever be , therefore the gap is much smaller.

Focused small 1x1/4x4 fights will require skills to change to be balanced in those kinds of fights , that simple.

Cyro is not focused on small closed and controlled fights mate , when they add it , you will see the real complaning about balance issues start and many of those issues will be about things that will only break the balance in cyro and PvE in general.

That is why the only way to even try to implement this in a resonable way is diving the balance , literally making skill X work in one way in the arenas and another way in Cyro/PvE , but that takes a lot more of work ofc , so it remains to be seem if this is the path they will take or not.

Okay, now I get where you're coming from. If they change the skills to fit the arena, then yes, that would destroy the game. I also completely agree about people whining louder when they're ranked on it. However, I don't think the devs will drastically change skills to fit the arena. They've already said that they won't make major balance changes too often, and any major balance changes will be added in slowly, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Arsenic_Touch

And yet they've already taken the hammer approach to skill balance instead of the scalpel that they insist they're using. the whole "making changes slowly" is just an excuse to validate the lack of inaction.

Rune_Relic

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

ZOS is historically TERRIBLE at balancing. It has taken 7 months for Stamina to even begin to approach magicka, so adding more variables into the equation sounds like a recipe for disaster, or job security, if subscribers had that kind of patience.

lmao....ok..fair point...just saying

Rune_Relic

IMHO...
1. If they redesign a system that does actually balance ...it could be applied to arena + cyordiil + pve without issue.
2. If they try to implememnt with bodged bad mechanics it will have serious knock on effects in cyrodiil and pve because the compromises will be incompatible.

What your odds on number 1 ? I havent seen anything to indicate that could even comprehend option 1 let alone put it into practice.

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

The one's opposed seem to be the screaming minority if this thread is any example.

Nox_Aeterna

rashkosh127ub17_ESO wrote: »

The one's opposed seem to be the screaming minority if this thread is any example.

Go make another pool , go on :P , we will see who is the minority again.

c0rp

LMAO...zos cant even balance the game WITHOUT an arena let alone with one...they know better. Wont be any arena coming any time soon lol.

Add spellcrafting to the mix? Not a chance for arena.