PvE Ruins PvP

Rune_Relic

Sod faction pride and honour....give me the buffs, points, gear and gold.
ESO Reality check

At the end of the day the game focuses on /encourages peoples innate greed to get an advantage over others.

They could have focused on honour/sacrifice instead. The system does not reflect that in anyway that I can see.

I want more/better gear (than someone else).
I want more/better buffs (than someone else).
I want more/better level (than someone else)
I want......etc.

All these things are "personal" achievements.
Compare and contrast "group" achievements.

I want more/better achievements

What do you get that rewards your group and not just you or you at all ?
What have you won for other people where you gained nothing and may have sacrificed instead ?

The game is all about taking and not doing anything without personal reward
Its hardly surprising to be overrun with greedy and selfish players if you feed them their habit.

LonePirate

Stonesthrow wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Besides, if you think the PVE crowd tampers with the PVP campaigns now, wait until the Imperial City is released as that is mostly going to be a PVE area with a lot less PVP action that many people realize.

Considering they stated that Imperial City is open to the faction that controls the most of the map, NOT just the 6 main keeps, there will be a ton of action going on outside. Unless there is a timer that gives you at least an hour once you "claim access" to it, people will be battling like crazy to force your respawning ability inside the city to switch and kick your butt out when you die.

Yes but that action occurs outside the city. When ownership of the Imperial City changes hands, it will be like when a keep changes ownership. The new owners run out or slaughter the previous owners they find there. The Imperial City will offer actual PVE activities instead of simply repairing walls and gates. Those activities are probably going to attract the PVE crowd in droves. We are going to see more interference from the PVE crowd when this goes live, no doubt about it.

Merlight

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

That's why I said something needs to be done about population balance.
But buffs earned in pvp need to impact pve.

I do agree with earned. Unfortunatelly that's not the case right now, many get it for nothing. In my opinion buffs earned in a campaign should stay in that campaign.

I don't agree with the need to impact PvE. Not because I want to give the PvE crowd a hard time, but because dragging buffs to PvE has contributed to the sickness known as "buff campaigns".

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

My worry is Imperial City isn't slated for several months from now, while the more immediate concern is dwindling populations of PVP participants. People get discouraged by exploits hacks and bugs, they quit, the people that are left are put under additional strain, some of them quit, the diehards try to tough it out, then they slowly trickle away.

Long term is well and good but they need to put a cork in these issues to keep from losing not only subscribers but the healthy player base proper pvp requires. I've seen too many people think if they do their best they can achieve anything only to be kicked down by cheeseball tactics or exploits. It's massively discouraging, and people will reach that point where they've gotten the best they can be and just say screw it I'm going to pve or quit entirely.

I realize Zeni has to keep to their plan for content, but they can't ignore these issues for too long. If pvp had half the issues it has now we woulda had our 10 servers still and things would be settling out, but as usual min/maxers think they can rule the roost and in the process ruin things for everyone.

LonePirate

One thing I have not seen mentioned is that there are plenty of PVE people who think PVP has ruined PVE because many of the various skill changes since launch have been due to the PVP crowd complaining. It's a two-way street.

dsalter

LonePirate wrote: »

One thing I have not seen mentioned is that there are plenty of PVE people who think PVP has ruined PVE because many of the various skill changes since launch have been due to the PVP crowd complaining. It's a two-way street.

PvE doesnt have PvE objectives that give major buffs that PvPers will wanna take. otherwise it would be 2 ways.

IcyDeadPeople

Stonesthrow wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Besides, if you think the PVE crowd tampers with the PVP campaigns now, wait until the Imperial City is released as that is mostly going to be a PVE area with a lot less PVP action that many people realize.

Considering they stated that Imperial City is open to the faction that controls the most of the map, NOT just the 6 main keeps, there will be a ton of action going on outside. Unless there is a timer that gives you at least an hour once you "claim access" to it, people will be battling like crazy to force your respawning ability inside the city to switch and kick your butt out when you die.

I don't quite understand how this will work. Wasn't the Imperial City described as containing PVP and PVE areas? If only one faction can enter, there would be no PVP at all.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Merlight wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

That's why I said something needs to be done about population balance.
But buffs earned in pvp need to impact pve.

I do agree with earned. Unfortunatelly that's not the case right now, many get it for nothing. In my opinion buffs earned in a campaign should stay in that campaign.

I don't agree with the need to impact PvE. Not because I want to give the PvE crowd a hard time, but because dragging buffs to PvE has contributed to the sickness known as "buff campaigns".

I mentioned elsewhere about tying the buff to results.
Maybe a fonction taking as parameter the ap earned in the last 24h.

But the buff is not the cause of your issue. The population imbalance is.
Buffs only serve as motivation to exploit the flaw in the system.

There is an underlying issue, but it helps no one to campaign against symptoms rather than diseases.

Azarul

I think you should have to earn your PvP buffs to use in PvE. Just like the reward tier system works. Must spend such and such time in PvP gaining such and such amount of AP before you are buff eligible. This would be on a weekly basis.

Merlight

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

But the buff is not the cause of your issue. The population imbalance is.
Buffs only serve as motivation to exploit the flaw in the system.

Population imbalance is not the cause of anything, it's the result of all the flaws combined. I think you even wrote that in the third sentence. Buffs serve as motivation to create imbalance. I understand you'd prefer to remove the possibility to purposely create imbalance, and expect the buff campaign problem to go away. But you'd have to start kicking people out of campaigns their faction is over-populated in, and that's not going to happen.

A buff that attracts people to come, roll over and leave, is a poison to those who stay. Remove the buff and you've taken away one reason for people to zerg their buff campaign every time an opposing faction rides out of their gates.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Ok, you're right, population imbalance is a consequence of many causes.
You interpreted my intent properly, I did mean that fixing the imbalances would fix the issue with buff campaigns.

There are many ways to do that, but I won't spend time listing them.

What is relevant to the initial discussion is that you cannot segregate pvp from pve.

AvA having an impact on PvE is a core feature if ESO. I'd even call it a selling point as it is trying to woo old DAOC players.

AvA should be fixed, but those buffs are not something to fix.

DlSTORTlON

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Ok, you're right, population imbalance is a consequence of many causes.
You interpreted my intent properly, I did mean that fixing the imbalances would fix the issue with buff campaigns.

There are many ways to do that, but I won't spend time listing them.

What is relevant to the initial discussion is that you cannot segregate pvp from pve.

AvA having an impact on PvE is a core feature if ESO. I'd even call it a selling point as it is trying to woo old DAOC players.

AvA should be fixed, but those buffs are not something to fix.

The very bare minimum; buffs should be locked to local campaign and has been promised:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

We wanted to give you all a heads up regarding what the Alliance War (PVP) team is looking into for the future, as well as what we’re currently working on for Cyrodiil. As a general reminder, the Alliance War team is responsible for all things Cyrodiil, the Imperial City, and the Campaign system as a whole, so this post will be centered on those topics.

Home Campaign Buffs – Originally, home campaign buffs were intended as a means to attach ownership to your Campaign, however it’s been observed (at great length) that Alliances have chosen various home campaigns and guest into other campaigns to earn as many buffs as possible. In the future, we plan on having home buffs travel with you into PVE, but while in Cyrodiil, you only get buffs from your local campaign (the campaign you’re physically located in at that time).

Guest Pass/Jump-to-Player – Being that ESO is an MMO, adding limits to when/where I can play with friends is a key issue we’re aware. That’s why the Jump-to-Player option is currently allowed to enter Cyrodiil. It’s our belief that allowing players to group up and play together is one of the most important aspects of an MMO, and removing the capability to jump to your friends or use a guest pass would be detrimental. That being said, with the Campaign Home Buffs being adjusted to Local Campaigns only in the future as well as introducing more campaigns options, this will hopefully cut down on the Jump-to-Player/Guest Pass abuse.

Imperial City – The final piece of the Alliance War “Meta-game” is coming, and will definitely change the landscape and goals of players in Cyrodiil. We are aware of the population waves that this will introduce on a Campaign-by-Campaign basis, and will be closely monitoring this when the Imperial City launches.

-Wheeler

I'd love population balance, but with the above statement, I don't see it coming any time soon. Scrapping buffs in PvE (at least until the imperial city is released), in my opinion, is one way to prevent killing what small amout of campaigns we have.


Update from EU:
Thornblade (EP Dominated) 70,000 points in-front
Chillrend (DC Dominated) 80,000 points in-front
Haderus (Quite Balanced)
Bow of Shadows (Slightly Balanced)
Blackwater Blade (Was always all AD; but since last reset its not)

40% campaigns dead (was 60%)

Rylana

Artemiisia wrote: »

many pve'ers would say pvp ruins pve, due to all the people that do pvp, comes here and yells nerf all the time, and only thinks about pvp and not the bigger picture.

Except for this game was marketed almost exclusively as a PvP centric game with some PvE options in it.

The whole game from the moment you create a character in one of three warring alliances is geared toward preparing you to fight other players of those other factions. The main story quest is just filler to get you geared/leveled up for that endgame.

The PvE content of this game is robust until you hit level 50, then it falls flat on its face, as it is likely intended to.

Cherryblossom

To counter the above, they need server limits governed by the number of people in other factions.
so if there are 10 in AD 10 in EP, DC should not be allowed more than 20!

Something like this would reduce the easy keep farming some groups do at time very few are online.

There are some full time PVP'ers but the Majority are mixture of both, so the Buff should be for all in the campaign.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

Cheats will cheat, and that's what having a "buff" campaign is, and justify it any way they can. And then complain that PvE is too easy of course.

Just one of the countless ways you can cheat and cheese in this game. It's a cheater's paradise and you'll find hundreds of posts justifying it throughout this forum. It's disgusting and amusing at the same time. I bring up my lunch while snickering.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

The very bare minimum; buffs should be locked to local campaign and has been promised:

Exactly.
It gives even more value to fighting in your own campaign as you are stronger there.
What would be a mistake though, would be to remove the impact of PvE.

Rylana wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

many pve'ers would say pvp ruins pve, due to all the people that do pvp, comes here and yells nerf all the time, and only thinks about pvp and not the bigger picture.

Except for this game was marketed almost exclusively as a PvP centric game with some PvE options in it.

Not sure about that. perhaps it was what you were interested the most in, so you saw it as "almost exclusively" marketed as PvP centric.

It was indeed marketed as a RvR game, following suite to DAOC, but it was one of the main selling points, not the lone showrunner.

But I see your point, though, everything in the game is geared to prepare you for PvP and have it as an activity everyone joins in.
Especially with the futur addition of the Imperial City.

Cherryblossom wrote: »

To counter the above, they need server limits governed by the number of people in other factions.
so if there are 10 in AD 10 in EP, DC should not be allowed more than 20!

There are other threads about this, but it is actually a pretty bad idea.
Probably not even a solution to the issue it tries to fix.
Even if it were to work, there are far better solutions that would add to the game rather than punish players for being part of a faction they chose months ago.

Tavore1138

The OP is just not accurate.

Every evening yellow & red try to stage breakouts, normally get a few forts and a scroll or two against active opposition, by mid evening DC get pushed back some trying to defend on two active fronts but by late evening my time the tide is normally turning back the other way again as DC get more organised and the players from the other alliances seem to lose focus.

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

Lava_Croft

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

It might not be an actual conspiracy, but people purposefully and actively play at night, because that's the best time to get your Emperors crowned and the map painted in a uniform colour.

Implying otherwise doesn't fit the facts and there's very little you can do about it besides get your own night shift going on.

DlSTORTlON

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

The OP is just not accurate.

Every evening yellow & red try to stage breakouts, normally get a few forts and a scroll or two against active opposition, by mid evening DC get pushed back some trying to defend on two active fronts but by late evening my time the tide is normally turning back the other way again as DC get more organised and the players from the other alliances seem to lose focus.

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

This post was 6 days ago. AT THIS POINT there WAS a DC guild logging in 'after hours' and taking keeps back until 06:00 / 07:00 in the morning (as long as 2 to 5 people could hold against them). AND DID NOT STOP UNTIL THEY HAD ALL KEEPS. Just because I don't give a hour by hour report on the whole campaign's activities - doesn't mean what i said wasn't accurate at time of posting.

DlSTORTlON

Lava_Croft wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

It might not be an actual conspiracy, but people purposefully and actively play at night, because that's the best time to get your Emperors crowned and the map painted in a uniform colour.

Implying otherwise doesn't fit the facts and there's very little you can do about it besides get your own night shift going on.

... or with a population willing to go to a dead server and take back these keeps EVERY morning following an 'after hours' cap. One, two, maybe three days are manageable. However, do it for the entire campaign's length (14 days) and you'll never want to go to Cyrodiil again.

I only want to play on a competitive server, and I don't see the enjoyment in playing on a massively dominated campaign other than for exporting the buffs elsewhere. Which is an issue.

If people did want to stay up as 'your own night shift' - why do it on an empty campaign without any competitive opposition? Night shifting is alot more enjoyable against an equally matched opponent. But that's just my view.

Rune_Relic

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

The OP is just not accurate.

Every evening yellow & red try to stage breakouts, normally get a few forts and a scroll or two against active opposition, by mid evening DC get pushed back some trying to defend on two active fronts but by late evening my time the tide is normally turning back the other way again as DC get more organised and the players from the other alliances seem to lose focus.

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

This post was 6 days ago. AT THIS POINT there WAS a DC guild logging in 'after hours' and taking keeps back until 06:00 / 07:00 in the morning (as long as 2 to 5 people could hold against them). AND DID NOT STOP UNTIL THEY HAD ALL KEEPS. Just because I don't give a hour by hour report on the whole campaign's activities - doesn't mean what i said wasn't accurate at time of posting.

In any war you will exploit any advantage to its full potential. If that means there is no competition as certain times....why would you not take advantage ?

Tavore1138

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

The OP is just not accurate.

Every evening yellow & red try to stage breakouts, normally get a few forts and a scroll or two against active opposition, by mid evening DC get pushed back some trying to defend on two active fronts but by late evening my time the tide is normally turning back the other way again as DC get more organised and the players from the other alliances seem to lose focus.

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

This post was 6 days ago. AT THIS POINT there WAS a DC guild logging in 'after hours' and taking keeps back until 06:00 / 07:00 in the morning (as long as 2 to 5 people could hold against them). AND DID NOT STOP UNTIL THEY HAD ALL KEEPS. Just because I don't give a hour by hour report on the whole campaign's activities - doesn't mean what i said wasn't accurate at time of posting.

I'll have to take your word for it - I've been playing in there from about 5-6pm UK time until around 10-11pm most nights over the last week and while AD/EP were certainly making headway in the early-mid evening times by the time I was logging out DC were well on the way to taking stuff back.

I generally had a good time, killed a lot of people and got killed a lot too, some good 2 and 3 way melees... appreciate that DC has generally controlled this campaign in terms of points simply because of holding stuff during the daytime but it seemed more about sheer weight of numbers than anything else more sinister... at least while I have been focusing on it.

DlSTORTlON

Rune_Relic wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

The OP is just not accurate.

Every evening yellow & red try to stage breakouts, normally get a few forts and a scroll or two against active opposition, by mid evening DC get pushed back some trying to defend on two active fronts but by late evening my time the tide is normally turning back the other way again as DC get more organised and the players from the other alliances seem to lose focus.

Implying there is some sort of secret after hours conspiracy doesn't fit the facts.

This post was 6 days ago. AT THIS POINT there WAS a DC guild logging in 'after hours' and taking keeps back until 06:00 / 07:00 in the morning (as long as 2 to 5 people could hold against them). AND DID NOT STOP UNTIL THEY HAD ALL KEEPS. Just because I don't give a hour by hour report on the whole campaign's activities - doesn't mean what i said wasn't accurate at time of posting.

In any war you will exploit any advantage to its full potential. If that means there is no competition as certain times....why would you not take advantage ?

Day 1 & 2 of Chillrend - My faction specifically did not push the keeps too hard (we stopped at holding emperor keeps to try and at least keep the campaign competitive and not discourage other factions from playing on it.

This is not a real war - This is a game

The issue is that a group of people (30-40) ruined the campaign by night capping keeps specifically to use the buffs in PvE - completely discouraging any other factions from joining. And to be honest I think the only reason people join in the afternoon / evening on the other factions is because they are queuing for the full campaigns or don't want to queue.