PvE Ruins PvP

DlSTORTlON

Chillrend EU - A DC PvE guild goes into Cyrodiil EVERY night to retake all keeps and emperor. WHY? They need the buffs for stupid PvE.

Disable PvP buffs for ALL CONTENT not in Cyrodiil... and while you're at it, lock PvP bonuses to the local campaign. So fed up with people ruining campaigns for these stupid buffs.

Fix it.

LonePirate

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

Disable PvP buffs for ALL CONTENT not in Cyrodiil... and while you're at it, lock PvP bonuses to the local campaign.

I feel a slightly different approach is needed. While I wholeheartedly agree the PVP buffs should be localized to one's home campaign and no other campaigns, I disagree on locking out PVE players from receiving PVP buffs.

Rather, I think three new campaigns should be added with each one being exclusive to one of the three factions. Let the Trials groups and the PVE people have a campaign that they can take over and not worry about another faction stealing their buffs or ganking them while they are questing or skyshard hunting.

If they have a campaign that is theirs to rule and receive buffs from, they are much less likely to interfere with those of us who actually use the PVP campaigns for their intended, primary purpose. Who cares if these three new campaigns are dead from a PVP perspective? The buffs wouldn't travel to any other campaign if the first condition above is implemented.

Everybody wins in this situation. The PVE crowd has a buff server for Trials and a safe campaign for questing. The PVP crowd doesn't have to worry about the PVE crowd nightcapping or daycapping their campaign or otherwise ruining the PVP experience.

Besides, if you think the PVE crowd tampers with the PVP campaigns now, wait until the Imperial City is released as that is mostly going to be a PVE area with a lot less PVP action that many people realize.

DlSTORTlON

LonePirate wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

Disable PvP buffs for ALL CONTENT not in Cyrodiil... and while you're at it, lock PvP bonuses to the local campaign.

I think three new campaigns should be added with each one being exclusive to one of the three factions. Let the Trials groups and the PVE people have a campaign that they can take over and not worry about another faction stealing their buffs are ganking them while they are questing or skyshard hunting.

Seems pointless. Why not just buff all players when they are outside Cyrodiil if they NEED the buffs for PvE? Don't think its fair that players wanting to set their home as an actual PvP campaign are nerfed for PvE compared to those abusing empty campaigns.

Lava_Croft

OP should stop playing MMO's and go back to Skyrim. There no annoying other players can ruin whatever you imagine.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

You are completely missing the point of this feature.

It doesn't need a fix, it actually needs a buff and it is coming in the form of the imperial city.

Everyone should feel invested in the war, it is necessary to create a server culture despite the mega cluster technology.
If a pve guild wants emperorship, it is amazingly cool. As a pvper you should relish the additional targets.

There are other issues with pioulation balance, or just pvp in general. But this isn't one.

Artemiisia

many pve'ers would say pvp ruins pve, due to all the people that do pvp, comes here and yells nerf all the time, and only thinks about pvp and not the bigger picture.

DlSTORTlON

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

You are completely missing the point of this feature.

It doesn't need a fix, it actually needs a buff and it is coming in the form of the imperial city.

Everyone should feel invested in the war, it is necessary to create a server culture despite the mega cluster technology.
If a pve guild wants emperorship, it is amazingly cool. As a pvper you should relish the additional targets.

There are other issues with pioulation balance, or just pvp in general. But this isn't one.

Locked population vs Low population during the day too. Population balance OR limit buffs to local campaign only.

Don't get me wrong, 10 vs 150 for each keep during the day and 2 vs 50 at night is great for clueless targets... but having to have a 'buff server' IS AN ISSUE to be addressed.

With imperial city... whats to stop there being 3 campaigns; one all AD, one all DC and one all EP? *waves goodbye to competitive AvA*

Tintinabula

If you think PVErs are gonna fill up the No tell Motels in Imperial City I think they'll have a rude awakening...or two...or three.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

That's why I said something needs to be done about population balance.
But buffs earned in pvp need to impact pve.

For a solytion to the pop balance, there are many ways to address it.
Like an ap cost for transport on the transitus network proportional to distance.
Diminishing returns on buff so that there are gaibs to win but no crushing advantages.
Higher xp and ap gains when fighting the largest faction.
And so on.

The basic premise to always asume is that players are greedy. They will fight for personal benefits.
Give benefits for fighting and holding teritory, and they will come and balance things out.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

They should just remove campaign-associated buffs entirely. It's incentivizing horrid behavior and turning the pvp scene into an environment that benefits only the elite leaving casual with no chance of interaction beside the token buffs for being part of the dominating faction. If even the handful of camps we have now are beginning to dwindle what does that spell for a month from now? As usual min-maxers poison the well for everyone else but themselves, but what do we matter we're filthy casuals after all?

Launch had a fairly robust spread then everyone decided to head for xploitsville and rather than have proper combat decided to take the easy road. If I wanted to PVE in Cyrodiil I'd exit ESO and launch Oblivion.

Zeni should also just do away with guesting. They keep balancing on the fence saying 'oh well people want to play with their friends we must give them the chance". How many people actually use the guest feature for that? I'm thinking it gets abused far more than used for its intended purpose, meaning the big elite guilds will play musical campaigns more often than a couple of office buddies decide to go fight the good fight.

I saw this problem happen far too much in my previous mmo where min-maxing became something that was required to progress anywhere. That is a BAD route to take, especially for a game such as this.

IcyDeadPeople

I'm not on the EU server, but I would be surprised if players primarily interested in PVE could raise a large enough force to take the map back from people who primarily PVP on any populated campaign, at any time of day or night.

What makes you certain these people are PVE'ers?

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I'm not on the EU server, but I would be surprised if players primarily interested in PVE could raise a large enough force to take the map back from people who primarily PVP on any populated campaign, at any time of day or night.

What makes you think these people are PVE'ers?

Toughing it out on the Haderus NA server I can say that the vast majority of AD either treat the province like their personal HD remastered Oblivion with dungeon delving and questing and the rest are riding the zerg train's coattails on TB/CR. They're quick enough to come swarming back if we so much as sneeze in the general direction of a scroll or inner ring keep, let alone a resource, but it's discouraged opposition so thoroughly only a handful of diehards try to keep pvp going. Today after reset there's barely 30 listed people on DC lbs, about 75 or so on EP, and AD is packed to the gills.

When ESO launched they did not intend to pare servers down so quickly, nor have the general populace suffer through the circumstances which brought the scene to what it is today. By all rights we should still have 10 servers,and MORE people should've joined pvp, not left in droves. All it took was a small portion of the populace to start exploiting game mechanics shamefully (and I get sick when people try to justify it saying it ISN'T an exploit when it clearly is).

DlSTORTlON

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I'm not on the EU server, but I would be surprised if players primarily interested in PVE could raise a large enough force to take the map back from people who primarily PVP on any populated campaign, at any time of day or night.

What makes you certain these people are PVE'ers?

I asked their leader

IcyDeadPeople

Haderus NA is not a populated server. It's a ghost town campaign AD is using for the buffs to play on Thornblade and Chillrend.

This kind of situation will go away once the home campaign buffs no longer travel. There will be more incentive for each faction to to hold emperor and scrolls on the higher pop campaigns where everyone plays.

Unfortunately, at this point it seems we lack the player base to consistently fill even two campaigns on the NA server, and the active PVP population is divided between EU and NA servers. Hoping we can get more new players into Cyrodiil.

Lava_Croft

...

I think you just chose the wrong game to play. You obviously wanted a single-player game and not an MMO that is online 24/7.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on calling people trolls. Also removed moderated quote.]

dsalter

i personally think PLAYER v PLAYER buff should not ever leave a PLAYER v PLAYER area so PLAYER v ENEMY players have an easier time. they complain about content being to easy then buff themselves to stupid lengths.

pvp buffs for home pvp camps only. leave them on the door step on the way out.

DlSTORTlON

dsalter wrote: »

i personally think PLAYER v PLAYER buff should not ever leave a PLAYER v PLAYER area so PLAYER v ENEMY players have an easier time. they complain about content being to easy then buff themselves to stupid lengths.

pvp buffs for home pvp camps only. leave them on the door step on the way out.

FYI: PvE = Player vs Environment

dsalter

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

i personally think PLAYER v PLAYER buff should not ever leave a PLAYER v PLAYER area so PLAYER v ENEMY players have an easier time. they complain about content being to easy then buff themselves to stupid lengths.

pvp buffs for home pvp camps only. leave them on the door step on the way out.

FYI: PvE = Player vs Environment

whatever. point still stands

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

dsalter wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

i personally think PLAYER v PLAYER buff should not ever leave a PLAYER v PLAYER area so PLAYER v ENEMY players have an easier time. they complain about content being to easy then buff themselves to stupid lengths.

pvp buffs for home pvp camps only. leave them on the door step on the way out.

FYI: PvE = Player vs Environment

whatever. point still stands

It doesn't.

Why should there be a separation?
Why not advocate the same about earning no xp nor any loot useable in pve while you're in pvp, and vice versa?

What is the point of fighting in Cyrodiil?

Maybe @Lava_Croft‌ was a bit aggressive in his comments, but he wasn't wrong.
The purpose of an mmo is not just to put a bunch of people in the same screen, but to have them interact and depend on each other.
In other worlds, mmos aim to create virtual worlds, with internal dynamics of demand and supplies.
What you are advocating is cutting off Cyrodiil from the world and making it have no sensible reasons to fight aside from just fighting. This is clearly showing you do not understand how human beings behave and what mmos are.

Epeen only serves the top 10 on the leaderbord, greed drives the 99% of the rest. There needs to be purpose, something to gain and lose, for Cyrodiil to properly emulate a war.
And there needs to be a clear us versus them for communities to come together. Realm pride is what keeps people caring, and caring keeps them playing and paying.

Should there be measures to counter pop advantages? Yes.
Should there be no advantages to guesting? Yes.
But do your points stand? No.

dsalter

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

i personally think PLAYER v PLAYER buff should not ever leave a PLAYER v PLAYER area so PLAYER v ENEMY players have an easier time. they complain about content being to easy then buff themselves to stupid lengths.

pvp buffs for home pvp camps only. leave them on the door step on the way out.

FYI: PvE = Player vs Environment

whatever. point still stands

It doesn't.

Why should there be a separation?
Why not advocate the same about earning no xp nor any loot useable in pve while you're in pvp, and vice versa?

What is the point of fighting in Cyrodiil?

Maybe @Lava_Croft‌ was a bit aggressive in his comments, but he wasn't wrong.
The purpose of an mmo is not just to put a bunch of people in the same screen, but to have them interact and depend on each other.
In other worlds, mmos aim to create virtual worlds, with internal dynamics of demand and supplies.
What you are advocating is cutting off Cyrodiil from the world and making it have no sensible reasons to fight aside from just fighting. This is clearly showing you do not understand how human beings behave and what mmos are.

Epeen only serves the top 10 on the leaderbord, greed drives the 99% of the rest. There needs to be purpose, something to gain and lose, for Cyrodiil to properly emulate a war.
And there needs to be a clear us versus them for communities to come together. Realm pride is what keeps people caring, and caring keeps them playing and paying.

Should there be measures to counter pop advantages? Yes.
Should there be no advantages to guesting? Yes.
But do your points stand? No.

you do realise all the buffs from a totally dominated PvP map can push your output by nearly 80% in pve? why do you think trials was a piece of [snip] ? they abused the freeby buffs and plowed them like a drunk woman at a party, they are breaking what was ment to be a difficult challenge in pve a joke, hell the pvp buffs can actually impact your leveling greatly to and something thats focused on PLAYERS fighting PLAYERS, why should it be impacting a place that doesnt involve you fighting PLAYERS?

if i could take my Alterac Vally buffs into raids your sure as hell i'll nail pve content easier. this is what people are complaining about.PVE CONTENT IS TO EASY. because the tools are there to abuse to make it easy.

Lava_Croft

In the end, it all comes down to the players. Is guild X from faction Y the fastest in a trial because their home campaign provides them with all the buffs they need? Go get your faction to enter Cyrodiil and relieve them of said buffs. As frosth.darkomenb16_ESO correctly stated, there is a direct connection between the Alliance War and 'regular' PvE. Disconnecting the two will just make both PvP and PvE less than what they are now.

dsalter

Lava_Croft wrote: »

In the end, it all comes down to the players. Is guild X from faction Y the fastest in a trial because their home campaign provides them with all the buffs they need? Go get your faction to enter Cyrodiil and relieve them of said buffs. As frosth.darkomenb16_ESO correctly stated, there is a direct connection between the Alliance War and 'regular' PvE. Disconnecting the two will just make both PvP and PvE less than what they are now.

point is they shouldnt BE getting these buffs from a campaign thats dedicated to being Red/Yellow/Blue for buffs, to many servers sat empy encourages this.

remove pvp buffs from pve, see content become harder. and last i ckecked, pve content was "to easy" so why not add the dificulty it clearly needs by removing the easy mode it doesnt need.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

dsalter wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

In the end, it all comes down to the players. Is guild X from faction Y the fastest in a trial because their home campaign provides them with all the buffs they need? Go get your faction to enter Cyrodiil and relieve them of said buffs. As frosth.darkomenb16_ESO correctly stated, there is a direct connection between the Alliance War and 'regular' PvE. Disconnecting the two will just make both PvP and PvE less than what they are now.

point is they shouldnt BE getting these buffs from a campaign thats dedicated to being Red/Yellow/Blue for buffs, to many servers sat empy encourages this.

remove pvp buffs from pve, see content become harder. and last i ckecked, pve content was "to easy" so why not add the dificulty it clearly needs by removing the easy mode it doesnt need.

I'm certain I've heard it before where some guilds came to 'buff servers' with the intent of unseating the dominant faction and depriving them of their coveted buffs.

Guess what happened. They got stomped. Because like poking an ant hill so much as touching a node scroll or keep incurs the wrath of the entire faction and they will zerg with everyone on the server as well as calling in guesters.

There just isn't enough distribution to promote a healthy population, and what population we did have at launch deteriorated quickly from various factors. The devs themselves said that Cyro was by no means supposed to be a pve playground. Factions are not supposed to have 'buff servers'. Period.

Lava_Croft

dsalter wrote: »

point is they shouldnt BE getting these buffs from a campaign thats dedicated to being Red/Yellow/Blue for buffs, to many servers sat empy encourages this.

Then get your faction to enter that server and undo their buffs? This how ESO works.

Can't get it done with just your own faction? Team up with another faction with the goal of removing the current leaders from power and when that's done backstab the faction that helped you out.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@dsalter‌
But that's an entirely different issue.
The problems you are complaining about is population imbalance/buff campaigns or pve being too easy. Valid complaints.

Yet you demand that PvP buffs don't impact PvE?
Do you really not see how this is unrelated?


@WarrioroftheWind_ESO‌
If there were incentives to fight a losing fight, or if buffs were given on merit/participation rather than just being part of the campaign, we would already have a more healthy AvA faction balance.

Groups that can do a trial run can make a difference in PvP. They have the basic organization to pull zerg balling and have enough numbers to profit from it.(50% damage reduction at 12 members)
Give them equivalent loot for fighting 1h in Cyrodiil in a loosing war, and they'll come. It would actually be easier than pve for them.

Bushrat

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

That's why I said something needs to be done about population balance.
But buffs earned in pvp need to impact pve.

For a solytion to the pop balance, there are many ways to address it.
Like an ap cost for transport on the transitus network proportional to distance.
Diminishing returns on buff so that there are gaibs to win but no crushing advantages.
Higher xp and ap gains when fighting the largest faction.
And so on.

The basic premise to always asume is that players are greedy. They will fight for personal benefits.
Give benefits for fighting and holding teritory, and they will come and balance things out.

You have summed it up perfectly here.

I see many players that do both PvE and PvP like myself. I enjoy both worlds, but many are either end of the spectrum.... they are either hardcore PvPers or hardcore PvEers.. I think Zenimax wants to bring these two worlds together and that's why they are bringing a dungeon to Cyrodiil that you can ONLY enter when you have emperor-ship... they want to merge these tow world--- which is awesome and ambitious imo.

You are right.. most players act only in their self interest. Using the carrot to motivate them to come to PvP is brilliant.

The only way toe get some PvE players to come to Cyrodiil is to offer Buffs and soon a nice dungeon. Also it will bring the PvP player into the PvE envirionment more to get more skill points, etc... I see many PvP guild questing together now to get the undaunted skill line.. its great because making this one big world with a nice balance of PvE and PvP content is the best thing for the game and make it makes it very interesting.. at least for me and I hope others.

Mud_Puppy

I agree for the most part. The bigger problem to me is the buffs apply in guest campaigns.

SirAndy

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

A DC PvE guild goes into Cyrodiil EVERY night to retake all keeps and emperor. WHY? They need the buffs for stupid PvE.

Riiight .....

Kewljag_66_ESO

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

Chillrend EU - A DC PvE guild goes into Cyrodiil EVERY night to retake all keeps and emperor. WHY? They need the buffs for stupid PvE.

Disable PvP buffs for ALL CONTENT not in Cyrodiil... and while you're at it, lock PvP bonuses to the local campaign. So fed up with people ruining campaigns for these stupid buffs.

Fix it.

So this system actually draws more people to PVP....... Isnt that what they wanted and the whole point of having PVP effect your PVE. It shouldnt matter if you want the buffs for PVE or PVP how would it be any different if they wanted the buffs for PVP?

Iradicus

The whole pvp system has design problems. Factions maintain their own campaigns at every turn. Nothing can stop them from doing so as quite a few people are only in there to win, not for a fair fight.

I did read they are working on te buffs, it will just take a while for them to sort it out.

Stonesthrow

LonePirate wrote: »

Besides, if you think the PVE crowd tampers with the PVP campaigns now, wait until the Imperial City is released as that is mostly going to be a PVE area with a lot less PVP action that many people realize.

Considering they stated that Imperial City is open to the faction that controls the most of the map, NOT just the 6 main keeps, there will be a ton of action going on outside. Unless there is a timer that gives you at least an hour once you "claim access" to it, people will be battling like crazy to force your respawning ability inside the city to switch and kick your butt out when you die.