[Serious] Improving this online community

Michael308

I’d like to offer a thought.

It isn’t earth-shattering, you don’t need to be Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein to see the logic. In fact for most people it is probably rather obvious and to those of you who fall into that category, I apologize. But for the vocal minority who thinks terms like “rage” have a place in a discussion about video games, let me offer a bit of perspective.

There are things in life worthy of rage. A girl I hold dear in my heart had the daylights beaten out of her by an abusive boyfriend and that made me very, very angry. Years ago I lost a friend to a drunk driver who was out on the street on his forth DUI; that got my rage going. We have a government right now spending our nation into trillions of dollars of debt — thats your future and mine — certainly something that might be worthy of rage.

But not a video game. If my Nightblade’s snipe attack doesn’t deliver the promised bonus damage, if my Mundus Stones don’t stack with my Divines enchant, if the new zone forces me to play an MMO with others instead of playing by myself… it just isn’t a crisis.

You want to talk about kids who have reason to rage? I will be out this Sunday volunteering at an archery event for girls who lost their moms or dads fighting in Afghanistan. These are kids who woke up one morning to find out that the Mack Truck of Fate hit them full broadside at a hundred miles per hour. They don’t get to roll a new dad, or reboot, or pick another game. They aren’t raging, they are just sucking it up and moving ahead.

Look I get that ESO is not perfect, nothing on this planet is perfect. I get that some of us really really want it to evolve faster, or want changes in directions other than the one the game seems to be going. We want it to be more like game X or less like game Y. That can be frustrating.

So take a break. Play another game for a while. Heck put the mouse down and go outdoors, maybe do something nice for somebody who has it worse than you do. Nothing in the world feels better than that. If a hike in the ESO level cap is that life-shattering for you, maybe its time to find out a bit more about life. For players, ESO is just a game. A toy. Something to do, maybe with friends, for a bit of fun.

I doubt anyone here would like someone to scream at us when we screw up. I doubt you would like to take a shot at a new idea only to have others call you an idiot or worse for not embracing last year’s idea. All this fluff about rage is… well it is pathetic and small. Flaccid. It is an affectation of malignant narcissism that presumes anybody on this planet cares in the slightest that you have nothing worse in your life to worry about that some minutia in a video game. You should put down the rage wand for a moment and appreciate what it is that you have a computer, an internet, or hands on your arms to click the buttons, because I’ve seen kids all over the world that don’t have any of those things. In Afghanistan I helped carry a 6-yr old girl into a clinic; she had a right hand that morning but didn’t now thanks to an old landmine where she was playing. You don’t get to rage over your Templar build.

And while your at it, maybe look up the definition of a few words, like respect and courtesy. Yeah I know they are old fashioned but they are really good words. The folks at ZOS and any other company you deal with are people, folks with families and taxes and bills to pay, folks with dreams of their own. They go to work and do their best with the resources and time they have and good or bad, win or lose, they deserve the same common decency I’m sure you expect in your life. Just because you can hide behind a pseudonym on an online forum is no excuse to be cruel, demeaning or rude.

If you really do care about improving this game, or any other, you will get a lot farther thinking through a thoughtful, constructive suggestion. Take a moment to craft complete sentences. Learn to spell. Be open to the challenge of critique. Those are grown-up skills that pay off in the working world. Be a part of the solution instead of sucking the enjoyment out of the air for developers and players alike.

As for the rest of us… please don’t feed the trolls. If a rage-post is completely ignored it will wither and die. When you offer an argument to the dumbest of assertions you just invite counter-argument and it will never become more constructive along the way.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out shortcomings, complain about bad service or anything of the sort, that is all part of free and open discussion and vital for any company to hear unvarnished. But when a post opens with “somebody sucks” “this game is doomed” or “I’m gonna quit” my immediate mental response is “OK, goodbye. Better luck at your next game.” Let’s lead by example.

That’s it. Thanks for reading.

LtCrunch

I applaud this post, I've been saying for a long time now that if this forum's community were more respectful, constructive and just overall less rude and entitled individuals it would improve every forum regulars mood and might just show ZOS that while we know the game has issues and we would like them to be fixed as quickly as possible, we also love this game and want to see it thrive for years to come.

Michael308

Amen

JD2013

+1

Nestor

OP, your over looking the glue that holds the Internet together, Hyperbole. If people can't overstate for effect, then don't feel like their message will get across.

I love this game, but there are things about it that I don't like at all. I will complain about them, I will suggest ways to fix or improve things, but I don't threaten to quit the game because of it. I just want them to fix it. The game does not suck because of these issues, it is just not as good as it could be.

That being said, 90% of this game is great.

LtCrunch

Nestor wrote: »

OP, your over looking the glue that holds the Internet together, Hyperbole. If people can't overstate for effect, then don't feel like their message will get across.

I love this game, but there are things about it that I don't like at all. I will complain about them, I will suggest ways to fix or improve things, but I don't threaten to quit the game because of it. I just want them to fix it. The game does not suck because of these issues, it is just not as good as it could be.

That being said, 90% of this game is great.

Please for the love of humanity don't try to justify hyperbole -_-

Tandor

Agreed, although I have felt for a little while that the general tone of the forum has been improving - doubtless a good many of the original haters have moved on. I suspect there's also a growing recognition that, as Nestor has said above, notwithstanding the issues, 90% of the game is great.

Awdwyn

Michael308 wrote: »

I’d like to offer a thought.

Wall of reasonableness.

That’s it. Thanks for reading.

How dare you be so reasonable!

Seriously that was well written, well thought out, and hopefully will challenge people who otherwise may not realize that what they say isn't being helpful.

Perhaps they haven't experienced the world you have, and learned those things yet. If that's the case, hopefully they can learn from what you've written.

Kudos.

cyqa

Thank you for making this post. There is a disconnect between the people who I talk to in-game and the frequent "rage" posts on this forum. In-game, I get the impression that the community is awesome, inclusive, passionate, friendly, etc., but on the forums it's hard to see past the flood of dissatisifed people. You're also right about not responding to these cancellation threads; I used to, saying that I hope they come back later when the game implements features they're interested in. But maybe I should spend my time responding to the many positive threads to keep them up top and let the rage posts fall out of sight.

(Not to say all those cancellation posts are rage posts, there have been a couple truly insightful ones that don't abuse the capslock button).

Tavore1138

Your reasonable post has driven me into a seething ball of rage & hatred!!!!!1

Michael308

@Nestor, I am in fact quite familiar with hyperbole but I think you miss the mark. If I may offer two points: First is that a great many of the sincerely rage-infused posts I see here look to be from people who could neither spell nor define hyperbole, and certainly have no conscious exercise of that as a mode of argument. Secondly, for those who do grasp that game, hyperbole is still no excuse for abusive, demeaning vitriol. As with this reply, I can choose overstate for effect and disagree with you in thoughtful terms rather than a snarky "you suck." Hyperbole is intelligent, rage is not.

But I do agree with you that 90% of this game rocks the house!

Michael308

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Your reasonable post has driven me into a seething ball of rage & hatred!!!!!1

Well I... I... yaaaaargghhh... <hulk smash> oh, sorry to have upset you. ;P

seaef

Brandalf wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

OP, your over looking the glue that holds the Internet together, Hyperbole. If people can't overstate for effect, then don't feel like their message will get across.

I love this game, but there are things about it that I don't like at all. I will complain about them, I will suggest ways to fix or improve things, but I don't threaten to quit the game because of it. I just want them to fix it. The game does not suck because of these issues, it is just not as good as it could be.

That being said, 90% of this game is great.

Please for the love of humanity don't try to justify hyperbole -_-

I don't think it's necessary to justify hyperbole on the Internet. That's like trying to justify why air contains oxygen. It's required for the Internet's survival.

If people didn't *** each other off on a regular basis on forums, news sites, blog comments, etc. there would be little content on the Internet except for opinion articles masquerading as news stories, questionable reference materials like Wikipedia, bad memes, and cat videos.

Maverick827

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

I don't like how you present this false dilemma whereby people can't complain about something because somewhere, someone has it worse. If that were true, then only one person in the world - some unfortunate blind, deaf, quadruple amputee homeless person - can complain about anything. Sorry, blind, deaf, triple amputee, someone has it worse than you - suck it up.

Sweeping generalizations are just as immature as "rage" posts.

Nestor

What I was referring to as Hyperbole is the Internet Temper Tantrum where the reaction is all out of context to problem. One is used by reasonable people, the other is used by, well, unreasonable people.

UrQuan

Well said indeed. There are things about this game that I think can be improved, and things about it that I think need to be improved. I like to try to keep it in perspective though. I also absolutely hate all of the over the top hyperbole that people use to try to make their points.

Protip: if you're using ridiculously over the top statements, a lot of people will flat-out ignore everything that you're saying because you instantly lose all credibility. Any valid point that you may have had will get lost in the noise and dismissed.

Awdwyn

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

I don't like how you present this false dilemma whereby people can't complain about something because somewhere, someone has it worse. If that were true, then only one person in the world - some unfortunate blind, deaf, quadruple amputee homeless person - can complain about anything. Sorry, blind, deaf, triple amputee, someone has it worse than you - suck it up.

Sweeping generalizations are just as immature as "rage" posts.

I didn't see a false dilemma at all. In fact I saw him saying it's ok to complain,however in a constructive way which recognizes that the people you're complaining to are real people. It wasn't about meekly accepting that the game has problems so just deal with them, it was more apt treating people well, regardless of the fact that you're hidden behind a computer screen.

Soloeus

1. Pathos is appealing to Emotion, which you do with your sob stories. Your problem is that using a sob story of "others have it worse than you" as a language coding technique to actually say shut up! cheapens the value of the sob story. I already feel less empathy for every situation you just described about the precious babies because I feel you tried to manipulate my emotions to silence me by making me feel bad if I "complain."

2. Logos is appealing to Logic, in which you go on a huge tirade about how it just isn't the end of the world. Problem is, nobody said it is. Nobody is behaving out of the motives you address. Instead, it seems logically, like you are muddying the waters by accusing people of having motives or behaviors just to paint a picture of them that is easy to attack. You also come off like some rich snob telling poor people just work harder.

3. Ethos is appealing to Ethics in which you attempt to portray people who "complain" as being unethical and immoral. Part of your argument is mere Semantics over the meaning of the word Rage. I also find it unethical that you are using manipulate techniques to rally the horde against "complainers."

4. Your argument just seems to paint with a brush so broad I could cover the side of a barn in 2 strokes. You make Apples and Oranges comparisons about Rage in a game versus Rage in real life.

Not to mention you also finalize by lecturing... again about adult behavior on the internet. As though you are seeking to claim some moral high ground by making easy to agree with points followed up with well, as you called it yourself... Hyperbole.

5. While I am certain you had good motives, I am also certain there are a lot more problems with your entire post than what I just pointed out. You did a good job of weaving Ethics, Logic and Emotion to construct an argument. Even though you have a really bad argument which I fear only serves to muddy the waters, you have a well structured argument.

In the end, I don't know if your post is directed to make a better community or complain about complainers.

I respect your Skill Level in Writing, and Critical Thinking. I just wish you had thought out the ramifications of lecturing, generalizations, presupposition and labeling of others. They are bad tactics.

You do make a really good point about the nature of hostility in the dissent of ESO Players toward Design Choices, but ignore the nature of hostility in those who attack the "complainers" as you label and generalize them. I don't agree with your post, because everything about your post turned me off. I do agree with the message in spite of that. I hope in the future you consider the tactics you use as to avoid turning off people who might otherwise agree with you.

Good luck!

Azzuria

Bravo Zulu, Shipmate.

+1.

I think anyone who's been to another country, who's seen actual, grinding poverty and deprivation feels the same way you do. To 'rage' over something as insignificant as a video game just shows how truly devoid some people are of actual humanity, and that saddens me.

Keep on with the courtesy.

UrQuan

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

I don't like how you present this false dilemma whereby people can't complain about something because somewhere, someone has it worse. If that were true, then only one person in the world - some unfortunate blind, deaf, quadruple amputee homeless person - can complain about anything. Sorry, blind, deaf, triple amputee, someone has it worse than you - suck it up.

Sweeping generalizations are just as immature as "rage" posts.

You've completely missed the point.

The point isn't "don't complain about things" it's "don't be an immature [snip] when you complain, and be constructive about it."

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Michael308

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

As that was clearly set forth in my OP I will merely suggest that you overlooked it.

And I did not suggest that only the worse-off gets to complain, but rather that rage, the scream-fits and tantrums, should be considered through the lens of perspective before being launched. Your rebuttal to me was thoughtful, you didn't threaten to quit this forum because I disagreed with you. The parallel I believe, is evident.

Nox_Aeterna

Well another thread about something that will just not change at all anyway , but i guess it is nice to talk about it like it would.

The simple reality is , a part of this community does not control the other at all.

Zen did recognize that certain players dont ... understand one another and thus gave us the ignore feature, but that is about it.

A very few can ignore other few and the majority will just remain neutral in the middle.

This is exactly like the other MMO forums.

Michael308

Nestor wrote: »

What I was referring to as Hyperbole is the Internet Temper Tantrum where the reaction is all out of context to problem. One is used by reasonable people, the other is used by, well, unreasonable people.

And I am all good with it amigo, sometimes hyperbole is a great way to frame an argument in a different context. But all too often we all see hyperbole tossed up to justify simple rudeness... the equivalent, perhaps, of spitting in your face and before you punch my lights out I hold up my hands and yell "hey dude, hyperbole!"

LtCrunch

Soloeus wrote: »

1. Pathos is appealing to Emotion, which you do with your sob stories. Your problem is that using a sob story of "others have it worse than you" as a language coding technique to actually say shut up! cheapens the value of the sob story. I already feel less empathy for every situation you just described about the precious babies because I feel you tried to manipulate my emotions to silence me by making me feel bad if I "complain."

2. Logos is appealing to Logic, in which you go on a huge tirade about how it just isn't the end of the world. Problem is, nobody said it is. Nobody is behaving out of the motives you address. Instead, it seems logically, like you are muddying the waters by accusing people of having motives or behaviors just to paint a picture of them that is easy to attack. You also come off like some rich snob telling poor people just work harder.

3. Ethos is appealing to Ethics in which you attempt to portray people who "complain" as being unethical and immoral. Part of your argument is mere Semantics over the meaning of the word Rage. I also find it unethical that you are using manipulate techniques to rally the horde against "complainers."

4. Your argument just seems to paint with a brush so broad I could cover the side of a barn in 2 strokes. You make Apples and Oranges comparisons about Rage in a game versus Rage in real life.

Not to mention you also finalize by lecturing... again about adult behavior on the internet. As though you are seeking to claim some moral high ground by making easy to agree with points followed up with well, as you called it yourself... Hyperbole.

5. While I am certain you had good motives, I am also certain there are a lot more problems with your entire post than what I just pointed out. You did a good job of weaving Ethics, Logic and Emotion to construct an argument. Even though you have a really bad argument which I fear only serves to muddy the waters, you have a well structured argument.

In the end, I don't know if your post is directed to make a better community or complain about complainers.

I respect your Skill Level in Writing, and Critical Thinking. I just wish you had thought out the ramifications of lecturing, generalizations, presupposition and labeling of others. They are bad tactics.

You do make a really good point about the nature of hostility in the dissent of ESO Players toward Design Choices, but ignore the nature of hostility in those who attack the "complainers" as you label and generalize them. I don't agree with your post, because everything about your post turned me off. I do agree with the message in spite of that. I hope in the future you consider the tactics you use as to avoid turning off people who might otherwise agree with you.

Good luck!

Don't try so hard.

SirAndy

Brandalf wrote: »

Please for the love of humanity don't try to justify hyperbole -_-

Without hyperbole, the universe will implode!
;-)

SavageHenry

The only real and lasting solution to the type of rude, angry, offensive or rage post is to take away people's anonymity. Not that it ever will or should happen, but when you can hide behind an alter ego and accountability does not seem to apply in any real sense, Then people will continue to behave in this way.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment of the OP, but I don't see this problem going away any time soon.

Michael308

@Soleus : (saving everybody the long quote). I, um... well thanks for the data dump from Psych 101. That might be handy sometime. As for your opinion, well its just that, your opinion and you are entitled to it. Good luck with that.

Maverick827

Michael308 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

As that was clearly set forth in my OP I will merely suggest that you overlooked it.

And I did not suggest that only the worse-off gets to complain, but rather that rage, the scream-fits and tantrums, should be considered through the lens of perspective before being launched. Your rebuttal to me was thoughtful, you didn't threaten to quit this forum because I disagreed with you. The parallel I believe, is evident.

I honestly haven't seen anyone act the way you describe on these forums.

UrQuan

Maverick827 wrote: »

Michael308 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think this thread vastly overestimates the amount of legitimate trolls on these forums. People seem to think "troll" means "anyone who disagrees with me."

As that was clearly set forth in my OP I will merely suggest that you overlooked it.

And I did not suggest that only the worse-off gets to complain, but rather that rage, the scream-fits and tantrums, should be considered through the lens of perspective before being launched. Your rebuttal to me was thoughtful, you didn't threaten to quit this forum because I disagreed with you. The parallel I believe, is evident.

I honestly haven't seen anyone act the way you describe on these forums.

Really? I've seen an awful lot of people on these forums behave the way he describes.

Edit: as far as I recall you're not one of them. Just wanted to make it clear that this wasn't a passive-aggressive attack on you.

Zabalah

Soloeus wrote: »

1. Pathos is appealing to Emotion, which you do with your sob stories. Your problem is that using a sob story of "others have it worse than you" as a language coding technique to actually say shut up! cheapens the value of the sob story. I already feel less empathy for every situation you just described about the precious babies because I feel you tried to manipulate my emotions to silence me by making me feel bad if I "complain."

2. Logos is appealing to Logic, in which you go on a huge tirade about how it just isn't the end of the world. Problem is, nobody said it is. Nobody is behaving out of the motives you address. Instead, it seems logically, like you are muddying the waters by accusing people of having motives or behaviors just to paint a picture of them that is easy to attack. You also come off like some rich snob telling poor people just work harder.

3. Ethos is appealing to Ethics in which you attempt to portray people who "complain" as being unethical and immoral. Part of your argument is mere Semantics over the meaning of the word Rage. I also find it unethical that you are using manipulate techniques to rally the horde against "complainers."

4. Your argument just seems to paint with a brush so broad I could cover the side of a barn in 2 strokes. You make Apples and Oranges comparisons about Rage in a game versus Rage in real life.

Not to mention you also finalize by lecturing... again about adult behavior on the internet. As though you are seeking to claim some moral high ground by making easy to agree with points followed up with well, as you called it yourself... Hyperbole.

5. While I am certain you had good motives, I am also certain there are a lot more problems with your entire post than what I just pointed out. You did a good job of weaving Ethics, Logic and Emotion to construct an argument. Even though you have a really bad argument which I fear only serves to muddy the waters, you have a well structured argument.

In the end, I don't know if your post is directed to make a better community or complain about complainers.

I respect your Skill Level in Writing, and Critical Thinking. I just wish you had thought out the ramifications of lecturing, generalizations, presupposition and labeling of others. They are bad tactics.

You do make a really good point about the nature of hostility in the dissent of ESO Players toward Design Choices, but ignore the nature of hostility in those who attack the "complainers" as you label and generalize them. I don't agree with your post, because everything about your post turned me off. I do agree with the message in spite of that. I hope in the future you consider the tactics you use as to avoid turning off people who might otherwise agree with you.

Good luck!

It's your kind of introspective and self-serving motivation that the OP is constructively admonishing. By responding in a pseudo manner of writing such as the OP has employed, you belittle your own intellect and our insight into your motives.

If you agree with the message, then don't shoot the messenger.

Michael308

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Well another thread about something that will just not change at all anyway , but i guess it is nice to talk about it like it would.

I know, but I had to take a shot. If we don't lead by example then we concede the world to be defined by the most vulgar and inflammatory among us. I'm not kidding myself or anybody here that my post, or a hundred like it, will change the world of the internet. Maybe at best it is a nice moment for those who want something better. Maybe it is a thank you to the devs who build a game that I really, truly enjoy. Either way it was worth my time in writing, and my thanks to all the kind folks who have responded.