Blackwater Blade Campaign - Levels of NPC's

KriHavok

So this campaign is focused around non-VR players, yet all NPC's including guards are VR5... This creates a frustrating obstacle of not being able to capture locations, I know for EU, only 2 forts have been taken since the campaign started. The level of the NPC's needs to be reduced, preferably to VR1 like before the update where they became VR5. Even resources are becoming frustrating to capture alongside outposts as that is what we are limited too. I am unsure if this was an oversight or something that implemented incorrectly, but it would be re-assuring for all Blackwater Blade players if an Admin or PvP developer could comment on what they are going to do about this.

Furthermore, there is a constant low population in the campaign and people suggest it is because it is under the "Special Events" tab which players assume is too hidden for people to find, so if this could be changed, it would be a beneficial bonus for all in the campaign.

Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

KriHavok

@ZoS_BrianWheeler could you offer any assistance?

Cody

would be nice if we got some insight into ZOS's plans on this. I don't know if ill play this non-vet campaign if the guards can 1 shot me(yes, im serious. the guards can kill you in one shot. it actually happens quite a lot)

Dleatherus

all i can say is this

they are aware of the issue - they agree it needs addressing - however all the 'basic' parts of campaigns are 'mirrored' on the other campaigns, including even the ones on the EU servers

so it's not as simple as just saying 'oh - we just need to take them back down to VR1 again on the non-VR campaign'

they are looking at increasing the 'battle-levelling' for the non-vet campaign players to try and balance it out better, and currently 'monitoring' how that affects other gameplay

hopefully it gets resolved for those of you playing on there soon

safe travels and much fun

D.

Cody

Dleatherus wrote: »

all i can say is this

they are aware of the issue - they agree it needs addressing - however all the 'basic' parts of campaigns are 'mirrored' on the other campaigns, including even the ones on the EU servers

so it's not as simple as just saying 'oh - we just need to take them back down to VR1 again on the non-VR campaign'

they are looking at increasing the 'battle-levelling' for the non-vet campaign players to try and balance it out better, and currently 'monitoring' how that affects other gameplay

hopefully it gets resolved for those of you playing on there soon

safe travels and much fun

D.

whatever works. I was looking forward to this campaign, but its hard to have any fun when keep guards can kill you in one shot.

KriHavok

Thanks for the reply, but have they made an official statement about the issue yet, if so, could someone link it to me for re-assurance that they acknowledge this issue?

Saet

I dont understand how they answer such trivial questions in some threads and completely ignore serious questions in others. This campaign is the most fun to me but the V5 Guards make it hell on us. Please let us know something!

TheFamousMockingbird

As far as I can tell, sorcerer summons also default to VR5. Anyone verify this?

The sub-vet campaign is very fun, as tactics and skill seem much more important. It is rare to get steamrolled in a 1:1 or even a 1:2 fight (unless its the emperor). Seen lots of great drawn out keep battles, very fun.

Difficulties remain: Uber-NPC guards that will one shot you. They are the main threat for an assault force, and they don't give much to any AP for defeating them. This results in very limited alliance points for resources. Seems many of our extended assaults and defenses are stunted by both factions running out of AP for siege and repair, so they often end up with sallies out to farm up some AP from killing each other instead of protecting walls.
Nothing wrong with that and they are glorious battles, but they end up being relatively non-productive.

Vampiresbane

Say what? Zenimax released this campaign without changing the guard levels?

W T F!

The archers (VR5) one shot me at VR2 and VR3, I can't even imagine what you guys are going through not even being VR rank.

Mitharus

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

Uber-NPC guards that will one shot you.

Well, to be honest, my VR2 NB will get killed in one shot by Keep Mages/Archers quite often, and within a few hits if I end up running into more than one guard by myself and can't get away (Well, they do have more skills now, so maybe quicker?). So, they aren't just a pain for the non-vet campaign.

At least as a vet the armor protection, enchantments, etc... can make you survive a bit more then what we have available in the non-vet campaign.

Though, the guard spawn rates seems increased to me. But that could just be that since it takes a non-vet group that much longer to work on a keep that it's cycling, even though it doesn't seem like it should yet. So a perception issue.

-M

ZOS_BrianWheeler

We have increased the stats you are granted from Battle leveling and found that the expected combat results against guards at a resource and keep with a group or more are currently within reasonable boundaries. Assaulting a Resource or a Keep requires more than just a few players and will need siege weaponry as well.

LunaRae

Do most of you have battle leveling turned on in your options menu? I would assume from Brian's response the best experience for players below vr5 is to have this turned on in your options mneu.

Mitharus

LunaRae wrote: »

Do most of you have battle leveling turned on in your options menu? I would assume from Brian's response the best experience for players below vr5 is to have this turned on in your options mneu.

Yes. Otherwise good luck.

IIRC, around level 12 I had ~1700 health with it on. Off it was maybe 300? I really don't remember the exact stats, but yeah... With it off, there would have been no chance even against someone of the same or lower level with it on.

-M

PS: If you're a masochist go for it. You think you get one shotted easily by NPC's with it on? You ain't seen nothin' ...

Cody

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have increased the stats you are granted from Battle leveling and found that the expected combat results against guards at a resource and keep with a group or more are currently within reasonable boundaries. Assaulting a Resource or a Keep requires more than just a few players and will need siege weaponry as well.

it is a lot better now than it was, though assaulting the front door of a keep or outpost is basically suicide if there are enemy players around. I also feel the guard spawn rates are a bit too quick, not just for the non-vet campaign, for all campaigns. there are times where a guard will spawn right next to your siege, and completely ruin your attack. The guards should not respawn until the battle is over, at least in my opinion. thankfully, we don't have to go thru the front door, though using a ram to break them down was good fun while it lasted.

driosketch

It's not too bad if you have a group and they can work together as one.

Resources go like this. Players creep up to the inner side o the tower. They mob the first few NPCs that come running out. Then edge around and focus on killing the tower mage. Then everyone rushes the flag and hold against any remaining guards until they own it.

Keeps for the most part they assault the wall on the side, rush into the corner and siege the postern. Then it's the tricky part of systematically killing guards piece by piece without drawing aggro from the rest. After that it's rush each flag in turn and hope for the best.

It's a different matter if you have enemy players. Then it becomes a huge battle for momentum that can last hours.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Towers/Resources are designed to be taken by a group of about 4-6 players and Keeps are for 12-16 players (undefended in both cases with Siege). Depending on gear, potions, morphs these numbers can change obviously but for the most part, this is the balance point we look for regarding PVP objectives.

As soon as you throw in Defenders, it then turns into a Ratio situation more so than how many attackers you throw at the keep/resource vs NPCs. Ideally if the numbers are even between attackers and defenders, the defenders will win but when the numbers go above a 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio, the balance will shift.

driosketch

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Towers/Resources are designed to be taken by a group of about 4-6 players and Keeps are for 12-16 players (undefended in both cases with Siege). Depending on gear, potions, morphs these numbers can change obviously but for the most part, this is the balance point we look for regarding PVP objectives.

As soon as you throw in Defenders, it then turns into a Ratio situation more so than how many attackers you throw at the keep/resource vs NPCs. Ideally if the numbers are even between attackers and defenders, the defenders will win but when the numbers go above a 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio, the balance will shift.

I would say the number needed to take a resource may be double that. It can take four players just to bring down a single guard, though it does get easier using CC.

And I don't mind the long battles, they're a lot of fun. And even an open resource becomes a defensible position. I rarely ever see players siege resource towers, the towers themselves I mean. I've seen at least a couple towers in BB missing their top half.

Mitharus

driosketch wrote: »

I would say the number needed to take a resource may be double that. It can take four players just to bring down a single guard, though it does get easier using CC.

No, six should be more than enough. I've been in groups that have 3 man'd resources when I was in the mid 30's, and with a vr6 and vr9 (IIRC; I know I was in the 30's at the time at least). It's completely feasible. You just need to take it slow.

As you yourself pointed out the steps, you just need to take time and not rush it, and really try not to pull agro on anything not required to cap it. I'd also add in, having a Sorc with Negate ready (or other AOE Ults can work to varying effect) to drop on the four guards before you rush the flag is a plus. Then focus on the menders.

-M

driosketch

Mitharus wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

I would say the number needed to take a resource may be double that. It can take four players just to bring down a single guard, though it does get easier using CC.

No, six should be more than enough. I've been in groups that have 3 man'd resources when I was in the mid 30's, and with a vr6 and vr9 (IIRC; I know I was in the 30's at the time at least). It's completely feasible. You just need to take it slow.

As you yourself pointed out the steps, you just need to take time and not rush it, and really try not to pull agro on anything not required to cap it. I'd also add in, having a Sorc with Negate ready (or other AOE Ults can work to varying effect) to drop on the four guards before you rush the flag is a plus. Then focus on the menders.

-M

Okay, but this thread is about the campaign that has no V6s or V9s to help out. That's kind of the point. And players basically drop all the ults and AoEs on the flag when they rush in to take it already. Personally I focus on the menders myself, but with the usual mass of players that gather to take a keep, prioritizing on resource flag guards is usually irrelevant.

Mitharus

driosketch wrote: »

Okay, but this thread is about the campaign that has no V6s or V9s to help out. That's kind of the point. And players basically drop all the ults and AoEs on the flag when they rush in to take it already. Personally I focus on the menders myself, but with the usual mass of players that gather to take a keep, prioritizing on resource flag guards is usually irrelevant.

Yeah, but I think the 4-6 mentioned is a generalization of the numbers across all campaigns. I've seen some folks solo resources, but... there's always exceptions.

And lucky you on seeing folks actually dropping AoE's on the flag... That's a rare occurrence in my experience on this campaign. I've been around multiple times where they small grouping just ran into the center and were wiped. It's getting much better now as folks get more experience.

-M

TheFamousMockingbird

Mitharus wrote: »

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

Uber-NPC guards that will one shot you.

Though, the guard spawn rates seems increased to me. But that could just be that since it takes a non-vet group that much longer to work on a keep that it's cycling, even though it doesn't seem like it should yet. So a perception issue.

-M

I have been told, though not verified myself, that to reduce respawns of guard we need to take out the groups of mages in the corner towers that tend to the portal.

semp3rfi

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Towers/Resources are designed to be taken by a group of about 4-6 players and Keeps are for 12-16 players (undefended in both cases with Siege). Depending on gear, potions, morphs these numbers can change obviously but for the most part, this is the balance point we look for regarding PVP objectives.

As soon as you throw in Defenders, it then turns into a Ratio situation more so than how many attackers you throw at the keep/resource vs NPCs. Ideally if the numbers are even between attackers and defenders, the defenders will win but when the numbers go above a 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio, the balance will shift.

Well i have been involved in multiple defences where 2-3 of us have been able to wipe assault groups of 15 or so players just because the npcs are so strong and we use them to trap groups. Even if they regroup the npcs have respawned.

I dont mind the npcs being so strong but imo respawn rates are to high, and the mages have a combo that depletes all your mana and stamina in one blow. I dont know if this is a bug but it has to go.

Perhaps the buff the npcs get from seige needs to be lifted from non vet.

I am enjoying it but im not sure an entire group is happy about being wiped because 1 or 2 defenders trap them in front of heavy hitting npcs.

Attackers really need a huge number advantage and given the low pop, its hard.

Savitar

I always thought that this could be the "twink" campaign. Never thought you'd continue the failed thought process of forcing people to group to do fundamental things. Just completely foolish and lazy to launch this non-vet specific and locked campaign with current level V5 guards and such.. the original launch window level 50 guards would suffice for this campaign.
Battle level is a good idea in theory, but fails so completely in practice when it comes to this drastic of a level gap.
Hey, Brian, wanna know why it's a ghost town? It's unplayable as it stands now. No amount of math will make that an ok thing.

driosketch

Savitar wrote: »

Hey, Brian, wanna know why it's a ghost town? It's unplayable as it stands now. No amount of math will make that an ok thing.

It's not a ghost town though. It's probably the most active and balanced campaign I've ever seen with single bars.

PF1901

Mitharus wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Okay, but this thread is about the campaign that has no V6s or V9s to help out. That's kind of the point. And players basically drop all the ults and AoEs on the flag when they rush in to take it already. Personally I focus on the menders myself, but with the usual mass of players that gather to take a keep, prioritizing on resource flag guards is usually irrelevant.

Yeah, but I think the 4-6 mentioned is a generalization of the numbers across all campaigns. I've seen some folks solo resources, but... there's always exceptions.

And lucky you on seeing folks actually dropping AoE's on the flag... That's a rare occurrence in my experience on this campaign. I've been around multiple times where they small grouping just ran into the center and were wiped. It's getting much better now as folks get more experience.

-M

In all my time in the non-vet campaign I can't remember having seen a group of 4-6 people being able to take down that group of guards / mages around the flag at a resource.
The campaign is nice but I'm getting a tad sick of the resource / keep pve.

KBKB

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Yeah the current changes don't cut the mustard, I suggest you try rolling around in there to see what people are talking about. I'm not a fan of making things easy but at the moment its borderline stupid for a non vet camp.

Mitharus

PF1901 wrote: »

In all my time in the non-vet campaign I can't remember having seen a group of 4-6 people being able to take down that group of guards / mages around the flag at a resource.
The campaign is nice but I'm getting a tad sick of the resource / keep pve

Agree. I haven't seen it yet on this campaign either. I think one of the largest issues is the buffs done (extra abilities, etc...) to keep guards. Even taking all the resources doesn't help much. For example, I was hit with "Improved Volly" (or some such) for 2K damage (All but 1 resource taken). Doesn't help I didn't see the red circle, or anything.

After taking all resources, I got hit with "Volly" for 1.6K ... Whee! I still had 100HP.

-M

twev

Mitharus wrote: »

LunaRae wrote: »

Do most of you have battle leveling turned on in your options menu? I would assume from Brian's response the best experience for players below vr5 is to have this turned on in your options mneu.

Yes. Otherwise good luck.

IIRC, around level 12 I had ~1700 health with it on. Off it was maybe 300? I really don't remember the exact stats, but yeah... With it off, there would have been no chance even against someone of the same or lower level with it on.

-M

PS: If you're a masochist go for it. You think you get one shotted easily by NPC's with it on? You ain't seen nothin' ...

Huh.
I only just read this.
My Lvl 43 has been playing with it off for kinda.... a while.
Well, forever, I guess.
My lvl 27's have, too.
Thanks for the mention. It was always greyed out, so I just assumed it wasn't ever turned on as an option in the game engine.



ETA:
I solo.
I'm not a member of a guild that's active anymore, and when we were active months ago, I wasn't doing anything but soloing PvE in Auridon.
I've only been in 3 groups in PvP so far.

My point is that I've not discussed stuff like this or any of the other stuff I'm finding in this forum with anyone before, so I had no clue.

sagitter

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have increased the stats you are granted from Battle leveling and found that the expected combat results against guards at a resource and keep with a group or more are currently within reasonable boundaries. Assaulting a Resource or a Keep requires more than just a few players and will need siege weaponry as well.

Mage and archers guards hit for 2000+ and we have 1900 hp. Pls nerf veteran guards and adjust them to non veteran level range, like level 50 would be ok.

Cody

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Towers/Resources are designed to be taken by a group of about 4-6 players and Keeps are for 12-16 players (undefended in both cases with Siege). Depending on gear, potions, morphs these numbers can change obviously but for the most part, this is the balance point we look for regarding PVP objectives.

As soon as you throw in Defenders, it then turns into a Ratio situation more so than how many attackers you throw at the keep/resource vs NPCs. Ideally if the numbers are even between attackers and defenders, the defenders will win but when the numbers go above a 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio, the balance will shift.

Im not going to be demanding about the VR5 NPC keep guards,
as I understand the work that was put into trying to even out this campaign, but PLEASE, do something about the archer guards. there is no logical reason, no matter what frame of mind you have, that a "quick shot" should be hitting for 1,200 points. that is complete nonsense, considering that the battle level boost you up to about 1,900 health points. and that's just a quick shot. If you get hit with their version of snipe.. or volley... you will be lucky to survive.

i have seen, multiple times, just 2 VR5 keep archer guards, in this non-vet campaign, kill almost entire groups. They kill players in 2 hits, its ridiculous. tone them down! if VR12s have trouble with them, why would you leave them the same for a campaign with only non-vet players in it?

other than some of the keep guards, i have a lot of fun in this campaign. this is the most fun and balanced campaign i have played in the last 3-5 months, however long the game has been out, and i hope it stays this way, and does not turn into a buff or emp farming server.

Braidas

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have increased the stats you are granted from Battle leveling and found that the expected combat results against guards at a resource and keep with a group or more are currently within reasonable boundaries. Assaulting a Resource or a Keep requires more than just a few players and will need siege weaponry as well.

But a reso in normal cyro can be solo'd and very easily 2-manned w/o seige. is it not supposed to be proportional?