Remove natural spell damage and make staves give SPELL damage instead of Weapon damage

killedbyping

[Moderator Note: Edited for clarification per wish of @killedbyping]

Mondo

Lol OP

killedbyping

So i think many people are frustrated by the fact that Staves give you weapon damage. I personaly just deny to understand that logic completely, since you are only able to use SPELLS while wearing staves.
Also all of the Staves skills benefit from Weapon damage instead of Spell damage even thou they are counted as spells and use Magicka instead of Stamina like other weapon skills.

1 Thing that made me start worry about this even more is the fact that ZOS announced changes to how Ultimates skills will scale (i dont know exact ETA, proly it will be in Update 3).
Ultimate skills will now scale with the stat you have the most. Right now they all benefit from max magicka and spell damage regarding of type and class.
I think that change probably would make Stamina users do insane damage with ultimates.
I mean max weapon DMG with 2h\DW is almost twice as big compared to Spell damage (specialy after spell damage nerf) and you can gain alot more of max stamina against max magicka even now and difference will be even bigger after new sets implememnted.
Making staves give SPELL damage (which is totaly logical imho) instead of weapon damage would greatly reduce that difference if not completely negate it (bcoz your weapon damage is all you got from weapon, enchantments and set bonuses, while spell damage is something you always have even when you totaly naked).

PBpsy

I voted yes even if this would be a considerable nerf for my inferno NB build because it makes sense.There are quite few options of increasing weapon damage at the moment and not many of increasing spell damage. the fact that destro works with weapon damage is what makes it so strong..

killedbyping

PBpsy wrote: »

I voted yes even if this would be a considerable nerf for my inferno NB build because it makes sense.There are quite few options of increasing weapon damage at the moment and not many of increasing spell damage. the fact that destro works with weapon damage is what makes it so strong..

I dont think that this build will become anyway weaker with Staves giving spell damage instead of weapon damage, because you will have spell damage equal to weapon damage.

Ofc drain power would not make your Flame staff damage stronger any longer, but this is another topic to discuss, because i also do not understand why most of NB skills are focused on buffing weapons while most of the dmg he deal is magickal. They should atleast buff both weapon and spell damage or reduce both armor and spell resistance.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

no its the way its supposed to be, skills of spelldamage, weapons and weaponskills of weapondamage (why would you otherwise have wapendamage on staff at all???) what they should unify its what skills scales on weapon/spellcrit

odiasuda

Wow. You want magicka to be even more potent than it is? That's baffling.

SirJesto

Why don't we have blocking with the staff consuming magicka then as well......

Homm

They won't change it because ZOS favourite DK will be hurt by this.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Why the hell would hitting someone/something with a bit of wood do spell damage?

killedbyping

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

no its the way its supposed to be, skills of spelldamage, weapons and weaponskills of weapondamage (why would you otherwise have wapendamage on staff at all???) what they should unify its what skills scales on weapon/spellcrit

Ehm ? This what i actualy mean. Why there is Weapon damage on Staves if all their skills are SPELLS ?

killedbyping

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Why the hell would hitting someone/something with a bit of wood do spell damage?

Have you ever tryed to use Staves ? You dont hit any1 with it, you actualy cast a spell even when you do basic attack.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

killedbyping wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

no its the way its supposed to be, skills of spelldamage, weapons and weaponskills of weapondamage (why would you otherwise have wapendamage on staff at all???) what they should unify its what skills scales on weapon/spellcrit

Ehm ? This what i actualy mean. Why there is Weapon damage on Staves if all their skills are SPELLS ?

its still a weaponskill, one you preform with a certain weapon, in this case the magicstick, without it you can't do the skill ...
staves are still weapons => scales of weapondamage => logic

Nublo

HELL YEAH !

And buff cristall fragments, reduce the magicka cost of Bolt Escape, and why not buffin every single f***ing class spell of the sorcerer skill trees?

THEY ARE NOT OP ENOUGH FFS

Oh and give them a super magicka pool and super magicka regeneration with the staves too, and every single lame class who use them too, because every class need a staff, specially if it's a resto staff.

/facepalm

killedbyping

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

no its the way its supposed to be, skills of spelldamage, weapons and weaponskills of weapondamage (why would you otherwise have wapendamage on staff at all???) what they should unify its what skills scales on weapon/spellcrit

Ehm ? This what i actualy mean. Why there is Weapon damage on Staves if all their skills are SPELLS ?

its still a weaponskill, one you preform with a certain weapon, in this case the magicstick, without it you can't do the skill ...
staves are still weapons => scales of weapondamage => logic

Please lets not convert this topic into senseless demagogy.
I can say the same about class skills. They are all SPELLS, even thou they officaly called SKILLS.

All of the Staves skills are SPELLS no matter from which direction you look at it. Even their visual effects wont make any1 think those are not Spells, unlike other weapon skills.

Samadhi

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

no its the way its supposed to be, skills of spelldamage, weapons and weaponskills of weapondamage (why would you otherwise have wapendamage on staff at all???) what they should unify its what skills scales on weapon/spellcrit

Ehm ? This what i actualy mean. Why there is Weapon damage on Staves if all their skills are SPELLS ?

its still a weaponskill, one you preform with a certain weapon, in this case the magicstick, without it you can't do the skill ...
staves are still weapons => scales of weapondamage => logic

Yeah this.
Staves activate weapon skills because staves are weapons.

Spells are Class skills that use no weapon of any kind.

All changing Staves to give Spell Damage would do is stack more people into using Staves because they will also increase the damage of class skills, leaving all other weapons even further gimped in comparison.

Maverick827

Staff damage is based off of weapon damage, why should it increase spell damage?

killedbyping

Nublo wrote: »

HELL YEAH !

And buff cristall fragments, reduce the magicka cost of Bolt Escape, and why not buffin every single f***ing class spell of the sorcerer skill trees?

THEY ARE NOT OP ENOUGH FFS

Oh and give them a super magicka pool and super magicka regeneration with the staves too, and every single lame class who use them too, because every class need a staff, specially if it's a resto staff.

/facepalm

This topic is not about asking to buff anything. But just to turn things how they should be from the start.

However, if you think about future, getting better staves would be a main source of buffing spell damage(like it should be and it IS in any other game) just like Weapons for Weapon damage.
The fact is, that gear WILL get stronger and better quality with the time pass. Armor will become stronger, Weapons will hit harder but spells will remain at same state. Soon or later we will see spell damage left far behind weapon damage because there is no way to buff spell damage (i dont count jewerly because you can buff both weapon and spell damage with it so its even).

I actualy would agree to remove base spell damage completely if Staves will give spell damage instead of weapon damage. Staves damage would need just a litle bit nerfing to make total spell damage even to what it is right now.

killedbyping

Maverick827 wrote: »

Staff damage is based off of weapon damage, why should it increase spell damage?

But it should NOT, because staves skills are spells and they also should benefit from spell damage...

Srugzal

Don't look now, but a staff is a weapon. There's nothing logical about making its damage magicka based, and doing so would unbalance character builds to the point of overturning every single passive synergy in the game, not to mention enchantments, food, potions...

In short, it would be a catastrophe. I trust that this is one species of player "input" to which the developers will turn a deaf ear.

Srugzal

killedbyping wrote: »

Please lets not convert this topic into senseless demagogy.
I can say the same about class skills. They are all SPELLS, even thou they officaly called SKILLS.

All of the Staves skills are SPELLS no matter from which direction you look at it. Even their visual effects wont make any1 think those are not Spells, unlike other weapon skills.

It's not demagoguery to assert that damage from skills which stem from weapons scale to weapon damage, and that skills which do not, scale to spell damage. It's a simple distinction. As many have said, the visuals don't change the fact that a staff is a weapon, not a spell.

There are several family trees of spells/weapons/skills/passives (Weapons, Armor, Class, Racial, World, Guild, Crafting, etc). The distinction concerning whether damage and damage scaling (and also critical chance) is weapon or magicka based, is fundamentally clarifying. This is usually, but not always, related to what it uses as a power source (magicka or stamina), if anything.

If you change that, the result is a mess.

kitsinni

What is the difference between your first two options? How do staves give spell damage? Spell crit already can help staff crit if that is what you mean.

BBSooner

Imo it makes sense for staves to effect/be effected by spell damage/crit, so I hope this gets looked at. From a gameplay/balance perspective though, I hope this comes after stamina weapons are brought up to par, and I hope stamina weapons are further adjusted to compensateif this change is made.

Probitas

Simply from a perspective point, I was always wondering why spell damage buffs did nothing for the staff, even when using the ultimate skill to boost heavy and light attacks. I still only see a light show for the attack, no weapon swinging, stamina is not being used, all pointing to magicka as the source of power, which by logic dictates it should be spell damage.

Hell, when you slap on a damage rune that does fire or frost on a sword, it does BOTH weapon damage and spell damage, but you don't get the same utility from a staff. That just doesn't seem proper.

NewBlacksmurf

I chose the wrong object but DO NOT change this.

The staff is a weapon and thus benefits from weapon skills. A spell uses magic. This does not.

Leave this alone

killedbyping

Srugzal wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

Please lets not convert this topic into senseless demagogy.
I can say the same about class skills. They are all SPELLS, even thou they officaly called SKILLS.

All of the Staves skills are SPELLS no matter from which direction you look at it. Even their visual effects wont make any1 think those are not Spells, unlike other weapon skills.

It's not demagoguery to assert that damage from skills which stem from weapons scale to weapon damage, and that skills which do not, scale to spell damage. It's a simple distinction. As many have said, the visuals don't change the fact that a staff is a weapon, not a spell.

There are several family trees of spells/weapons/skills/passives (Weapons, Armor, Class, Racial, World, Guild, Crafting, etc). The distinction concerning whether damage and damage scaling (and also critical chance) is weapon or magicka based, is fundamentally clarifying. This is usually, but not always, related to what it uses as a power source (magicka or stamina), if anything.

If you change that, the result is a mess.

Staves skills scale not just with weapon damage but also with Magicka.
Staves skills uses MAGICKA as resource, not Stamina.
Staves uses Spell Crit, not weapon crit.
Staves never touch a target, it cast a magical spell to create some effect.

Your logic fail completely.

Magical Staff is a Magical Staff.
When mage wear a staff he use it to cast a spell, not to hit some1 into the knee.

"Oh, i hit you in the head and healed you or "X" ammount of health. How amusing" Now i stomp the ground with my Staff and ground start to burn" That is so much a WEAPON skill....

Nox_Aeterna

While it is true that stamina builds are already on the disadvantage ,but this does make sense , so i would prefer if they changed it.

Still , i agree the devs have a lot of work before we can say they balanced this game , a LOT.

kitsinni

killedbyping wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

no its the way its supposed to be, skills of spelldamage, weapons and weaponskills of weapondamage (why would you otherwise have wapendamage on staff at all???) what they should unify its what skills scales on weapon/spellcrit

Ehm ? This what i actualy mean. Why there is Weapon damage on Staves if all their skills are SPELLS ?

its still a weaponskill, one you preform with a certain weapon, in this case the magicstick, without it you can't do the skill ...
staves are still weapons => scales of weapondamage => logic

Please lets not convert this topic into senseless demagogy.
I can say the same about class skills. They are all SPELLS, even thou they officaly called SKILLS.

All of the Staves skills are SPELLS no matter from which direction you look at it. Even their visual effects wont make any1 think those are not Spells, unlike other weapon skills.

Staves skills scale not just with weapon damage but also with Magicka.

I don't think this is true.

Do you realize you quoted yourself then said your logic failed?

skeletorz_ESO

Nublo wrote: »

HELL YEAH !

And buff cristall fragments, reduce the magicka cost of Bolt Escape, and why not buffin every single f***ing class spell of the sorcerer skill trees?

THEY ARE NOT OP ENOUGH FFS

Oh and give them a super magicka pool and super magicka regeneration with the staves too, and every single lame class who use them too, because every class need a staff, specially if it's a resto staff.

/facepalm

This

killedbyping

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

Nublo wrote: »

HELL YEAH !

And buff cristall fragments, reduce the magicka cost of Bolt Escape, and why not buffin every single f***ing class spell of the sorcerer skill trees?

THEY ARE NOT OP ENOUGH FFS

Oh and give them a super magicka pool and super magicka regeneration with the staves too, and every single lame class who use them too, because every class need a staff, specially if it's a resto staff.

/facepalm

This

Whats wrong with you guys ?

Yet again, im not asking for any buffs...
I would actualy agree to remove natural spell damage completely and nerf ammount of damage given by Staves to make it even to what spell damage is now.

Right now it might look like spell damage buff, but it is just a mechanics to make spell damage build viable later, when even more powerfull gear will be implemented (which will happen soon or later). Weapon WILL get stronger therefore make Stamina Users stronger, but spell damage have no way to be buffed besides jewerly enchant which can not be even taken into account because you can buff your weapon damage by the same ammount this way so its even.

Srugzal

killedbyping wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

Please lets not convert this topic into senseless demagogy.
I can say the same about class skills. They are all SPELLS, even thou they officaly called SKILLS.

All of the Staves skills are SPELLS no matter from which direction you look at it. Even their visual effects wont make any1 think those are not Spells, unlike other weapon skills.

It's not demagoguery to assert that damage from skills which stem from weapons scale to weapon damage, and that skills which do not, scale to spell damage. It's a simple distinction. As many have said, the visuals don't change the fact that a staff is a weapon, not a spell.

There are several family trees of spells/weapons/skills/passives (Weapons, Armor, Class, Racial, World, Guild, Crafting, etc). The distinction concerning whether damage and damage scaling (and also critical chance) is weapon or magicka based, is fundamentally clarifying. This is usually, but not always, related to what it uses as a power source (magicka or stamina), if anything.

If you change that, the result is a mess.

Staves skills scale not just with weapon damage but also with Magicka.
Staves skills uses MAGICKA as resource, not Stamina.
Staves uses Spell Crit, not weapon crit.
Staves never touch a target, it cast a magical spell to create some effect.

Your logic fail completely.

Magical Staff is a Magical Staff.
When mage wear a staff he use it to cast a spell, not to hit some1 into the knee.

"Oh, i hit you in the head and healed you or "X" ammount of health. How amusing" Now i stomp the ground with my Staff and ground start to burn" That is so much a WEAPON skill....

Well, don't want to beat a dead horse, and I'm as guilty of expanding the scope of the original question as you, but it was not about the skill lines, but about staff weapon damage. It's perfectly sensible the way it is.

All this other stuff is just... stuff. You're confused between skills and weapons. Nuff said.