[Discussion] Sandbox is the future of gaming, and ESO is way behind on that.

stefanosbekrwb17_ESO

Justice system is the beginning, but i snot enough. Dynamic events (that are actually dynamic), housing, player impacts world with decisions etc. are things upcoming games MMOs including will have as features. theres a ton of things to be developed by Zenimax if they want ESO to last in time. Discuss

Tabbycat

I'll wait and see how well these sandbox mmos do before I jump on the bandwagon.

I do know that ZOS plans to add in a few more sandboxy elements to the game going by what they said at QuakeCon.

I wouldn't want a 100% sandbox MMO, though. That would get so boring so fast.

Istyar

Go play ArchAge or Black Desert then. Leave ESO and its lore to us.

Sindala

It's very hard to add 'sandbox' to the MMO's these days as it's all been done before so it ain't sandbox no more.
I'm happy with what I have recently seen that's coming.
Let's not be naive here, were here because it's Elder Scrolls. Aslong as it keeps in the ES universe and don't stretch the lore too far then I shall remain.

Oh and if you think sandbox is easy to add, write down your ideas here and I bet you get a tonne of posts telling you which game has already done it.

Akiainavas

stefanosbekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Justice system is the beginning, but i snot enough. Dynamic events (that are actually dynamic), housing, player impacts world with decisions etc. are things upcoming games MMOs including will have as features. theres a ton of things to be developed by Zenimax if they want ESO to last in time. Discuss

Housing ? Really ? You mean like in Rift, when you can create your "Dimension" and do well... nothing at all in it ? Sorry but I don't think ZeniMax should catch up on that... they should actually avoid copying those pointless ideas and focus on lore, story and gameplay.

Aeradon

Sandbox is not the future. Brain wave gaming is.

ESO is wayyy behind that. Just look at Sword Art Online.

Delith

The people who struggle to make sure sandbox elements are left out are the reason MMOs are littered with the exact same experience, over and over again, until everyone get's bored and quits.

Sandbox usually comes with risk, and the vast majority of MMO gamers today are risk averse, terrified of potential loss, even if it's in a virtual world that has no real impact on their actual life, and they have multiple methods of recourse. There's a reason death in ESO is nearly MEANINGLESS. Pay a repair fee, walk back. Who's afraid of death?

Good luck getting them to accept the game as it should be. There's a reason ZOS made it the way they have, and have to slowly introduce emergent gameplay in the form of the justice system. And guess what? People are already bitching about that.

They want a mindless grind, from point a to point b. If you try to give them anything else, the cold dead husk of a body they purport to inhabit starts to flail wildly until they turn blue and start screaming.

Ultima Online had it perfect 17 years ago, and no developer except CCP (Eve) has had the balls to make a knock off that was worth a damn yet. We get half assed indie ventures with incompetent developers, but no AAA company has actually tried to do the same thing again.

It's sad as hell.

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

stefanosbekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Discuss

False assertions aren't the basis for discussions.

/thread

Ninnghizhidda

ESO is carrying the heavyweight Elder Scrolls legacy on its frail shoulders and, admittedly, has done a pretty good job in delivering most of the lore, locations and beauty of the world and environment found in ES titles.

What it has failed miserably so far is to give players options, real options, to be something else apart from a "mage". To me it is a fundamental flaw and fail and as time passes I see very little being done to remedy this.

Everything else might be nice and lovely and fancy and super, but when you begin with fundamental flaws, thus severely limiting people and force-marching them towards a specific path, make as many houses and dyes and pets and circuses as you like.

Tabbycat

Delith wrote: »

The people who struggle to make sure sandbox elements are left out are the reason MMOs are littered with the exact same experience, over and over again, until everyone get's bored and quits.

Sandbox usually comes with risk, and the vast majority of MMO gamers today are risk averse, terrified of potential loss, even if it's in a virtual world that has no real impact on their actual life, and they have multiple methods of recourse. There's a reason death in ESO is nearly MEANINGLESS. Pay a repair fee, walk back. Who's afraid of death?

Good luck getting them to accept the game as it should be. There's a reason ZOS made it the way they have, and have to slowly introduce emergent gameplay in the form of the justice system. And guess what? People are already bitching about that.

They want a mindless grind, from point a to point b. If you try to give them anything else, the cold dead husk of a body they purport to inhabit starts to flail wildly until they turn blue and start screaming.

Ultima Online had it perfect 17 years ago, and no developer except CCP (Eve) has had the balls to make a knock off that was worth a damn yet. We get half assed indie ventures with incompetent developers, but no AAA company has actually tried to do the same thing again.

It's sad as hell.

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

The tiny niche of players that would be interested in this type of gameplay would not be enough to support ESO.

You should find an Indie game developer company, pitch your idea and then get it funded through Kickstart. Seriously. If this is the vision you have for the game and you really want to do this, Indie is your best bet. You aren't going to get a AAA MMO developer to do it because the consumer base will be too low for them to recoup their revenue.

Obviously you won't be able to use TES as your backdrop for your game. But if it's true Sandbox, you can have your players create the lore for you.

kassandratheclericb14_ESO

Delith wrote: »

The people who struggle to make sure sandbox elements are left out are the reason MMOs are littered with the exact same experience, over and over again, until everyone get's bored and quits.

Sandbox usually comes with risk, and the vast majority of MMO gamers today are risk averse, terrified of potential loss, even if it's in a virtual world that has no real impact on their actual life, and they have multiple methods of recourse. There's a reason death in ESO is nearly MEANINGLESS. Pay a repair fee, walk back. Who's afraid of death?

Good luck getting them to accept the game as it should be. There's a reason ZOS made it the way they have, and have to slowly introduce emergent gameplay in the form of the justice system. And guess what? People are already bitching about that.

They want a mindless grind, from point a to point b. If you try to give them anything else, the cold dead husk of a body they purport to inhabit starts to flail wildly until they turn blue and start screaming.

Ultima Online had it perfect 17 years ago, and no developer except CCP (Eve) has had the balls to make a knock off that was worth a damn yet. We get half assed indie ventures with incompetent developers, but no AAA company has actually tried to do the same thing again.

It's sad as hell.

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

I can completely understand that some folks may want a game like this. I personally do not. I play a fantasy game to be a fantasy. If I wanted sucky (in my opinion of course) times I would go and pay attention to my real life. :P

Enkil

Istyar wrote: »

Go play ArchAge or Black Desert then. Leave ESO and its lore to us.

Elder Scrolls lore lends itself very well to a Sandbox MMO.... I've always thought so since I first played Morrowind. I hope the Dev's keep adding sandbox elements to the game 50+.. The theme-park leveling portion won't be too relevant over the long term...

Nox_Aeterna

Nah, that is not true at all in my opinion.

In the end it is all a matter of taste, there are plenty who like sandbox games , but that are plenty who enjoy the tons of other different kinds also.

If ESO was the best themepark MMO , then the people that enjoy themepark MMOs would keep it going , the issue is that many dont think it is.

Delith wrote: »

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

This here is an example.

I for one would unsub without even looking behind if they made ESO even close to many of these ideas.

rotiferuk

stefanosbekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Justice system is the beginning, but i snot enough. Dynamic events (that are actually dynamic), housing, player impacts world with decisions etc. are things upcoming games MMOs including will have as features. theres a ton of things to be developed by Zenimax if they want ESO to last in time. Discuss

I agree, a big sandbox, complete with little plastic buckets, shovels and castle makers is just what the griefers need

Delith

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Nah, that is not true at all in my opinion.

In the end it is all a matter of taste, there are plenty who like sandbox games , but that are plenty who enjoy the tons of other different kinds also.

If ESO was the best themepark MMO , then the people that enjoy themepark MMOs would keep it going , the issue is that many dont think it is.

Delith wrote: »

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

This here is an example.

I for one would unsub without even looking behind if they made ESO even close to many of these ideas.

You'd quit the game if they added an option at character creation labeled "hardcore" and absolutely none of the above had any impact on you whatsoever? Just phase people who want to play this style together, and phase those who don't together. Tada. Everyone gets what they want.

TES is about immersion. Not being able to be anything but a hero is stupid.

Logan9a

Tabbycat wrote: »

I wouldn't want a 100% sandbox MMO, though. That would get so boring so fast.

A mix is indeed probably a good thing. Having quests with the ability to make buildings that actually *matter* (as opposed to 'a cool place to hang out with your friends') will bring out a lot of interesting stuff.

I look forward to the future of sandbox gaming - it will be so much more interesting than 'theme park'. Especially when players can do things like make a dungeon.

Pete: "June - wanna do a dungeon?"
June: "I've been hearing about a new one by Randmar!"
Pete: "Holy crap - I remember his Crypts of Blood dungeon! Amazing!"
June: "This one has under five hundred votes so it's not got a rating yet but when it does I'm betting it's going to be another eight plus!"
Pete: "Lets go!"

(Note: Because this is an MMO, June is played by a guy in a wig with fake breasts.)

kitsinni

I would say that sandbox is the past of gaming .. where is this huge trend towards sandbox gaming? I don't even think a true sandbox game would work anymore people just want to grief people and sandbox games are destroyed without a community.

Tabbycat

I always found it interesting that in Morrowind you had to work for your player stronghold (that was your character's housing). You had to earn reputation with a House and do quests for them in order to unlock the ability to begin construction on it. The type of stronghold you ended up with depended on which House you joined. I actually enjoyed doing it. I honestly would like to see ZOS implement something similar when they decide to do player housing. I'd rather do that then just shell out gold for it.

BBSooner

Logan9a wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I wouldn't want a 100% sandbox MMO, though. That would get so boring so fast.

A mix is indeed probably a good thing. Having quests with the ability to make buildings that actually *matter* (as opposed to 'a cool place to hang out with your friends') will bring out a lot of interesting stuff.

I look forward to the future of sandbox gaming - it will be so much more interesting than 'theme park'. Especially when players can do things like make a dungeon.

Pete: "June - wanna do a dungeon?"
June: "I've been hearing about a new one by Randmar!"
Pete: "Holy crap - I remember his Crypts of Blood dungeon! Amazing!"
June: "This one has under five hundred votes so it's not got a rating yet but when it does I'm betting it's going to be another eight plus!"
Pete: "Lets go!"

(Note: Because this is an MMO, June is played by a guy in a wig with fake breasts.)

Sounds like you want a player available creation kit, not a sandbox experience.

Delith

kitsinni wrote: »

I would say that sandbox is the past of gaming .. where is this huge trend towards sandbox gaming? I don't even think a true sandbox game would work anymore people just want to grief people and sandbox games are destroyed without a community.

DayZ, Rust, Minecraft, Everquest Next, Archeage, tons of indie developers, Pathfinder, Star Citizen, H1Z1, Shroud of the Avatar,

Sandbox is not the past. It's coming back, and you cannot stop it. We're tired of the same nonsense over and over again. Get ready. Themepark is on the way out.

Delith

BBSooner wrote: »

Logan9a wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I wouldn't want a 100% sandbox MMO, though. That would get so boring so fast.

A mix is indeed probably a good thing. Having quests with the ability to make buildings that actually *matter* (as opposed to 'a cool place to hang out with your friends') will bring out a lot of interesting stuff.

I look forward to the future of sandbox gaming - it will be so much more interesting than 'theme park'. Especially when players can do things like make a dungeon.

Pete: "June - wanna do a dungeon?"
June: "I've been hearing about a new one by Randmar!"
Pete: "Holy crap - I remember his Crypts of Blood dungeon! Amazing!"
June: "This one has under five hundred votes so it's not got a rating yet but when it does I'm betting it's going to be another eight plus!"
Pete: "Lets go!"

(Note: Because this is an MMO, June is played by a guy in a wig with fake breasts.)

Sounds like you want a player available creation kit, not a sandbox experience.

A player available creation kit is part of what defines sandbox, which is just a label for letting players interact with the world in a way more meaningful than "kill this thing, and loot it."

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Delith wrote: »

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

EVE is that way - - - - - - ->

BBSooner

Delith wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I would say that sandbox is the past of gaming .. where is this huge trend towards sandbox gaming? I don't even think a true sandbox game would work anymore people just want to grief people and sandbox games are destroyed without a community.

DayZ, Rust, Minecraft, Everquest Next, Archeage, tons of indie developers, Pathfinder, Star Citizen, H1Z1.

Sandbox is not the past. It's coming, and you cannot stop it. We're tired of the same nonsense over and over again. Get ready.

Sandbox games aren't a new thing. Why you seem to think it's some gaming innovation that is on the horizon is beyond me.

Delith

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Delith wrote: »

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

EVE is that way - - - - - - ->

Eve is in space, not Tamriel, trollguy. Thanks for wasting your time though.

Anastasia

Enkil wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

Go play ArchAge or Black Desert then. Leave ESO and its lore to us.

Elder Scrolls lore lends itself very well to a Sandbox MMO.... I've always thought so since I first played Morrowind. I hope the Dev's keep adding sandbox elements to the game 50+.. The theme-park leveling portion won't be too relevant over the long term...

---

And I would venture to say, may be wrong, but I'm guessing the majority of those who loved Morrowind may be inclined to be open to your idea, while those who rave instead about Skyrim are errrrr, a 'different' sort of
player Enkil .

Delith

Anastasia wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Istyar wrote: »

Go play ArchAge or Black Desert then. Leave ESO and its lore to us.

Elder Scrolls lore lends itself very well to a Sandbox MMO.... I've always thought so since I first played Morrowind. I hope the Dev's keep adding sandbox elements to the game 50+.. The theme-park leveling portion won't be too relevant over the long term...

---

And I would venture to say, may be wrong, but I'm guessing the majority of those who loved Morrowind may be inclined to be open to your idea, while those who rave instead about Skyrim are errrrr, a 'different' sort of
player Enkil .

Maybe! But remember that (aside from ***/sex mods), a HUGE majority of the most popular mods for Skyrim were designed around making it more difficult.

Requiem, realistic needs and diseases, frostfall, wet and cold, etc.

So that's not entirely true. I love Morrowind, and I love Skyrim, and I fully support making this game more of a sandbox to match the single player experience of the series.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Delith wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Delith wrote: »

Sandbox:

Let players interact with one another beyond facile and shallow grouping methods. Let us kill and loot one another. Let us eat each other's bodies. Give us a complicated housing and decoration system. Let us break into one another's houses. Give us the ability to steal from each other. Let us turn people into vampires or werewolves against their will. Create systems to punish and ostracize people who do bad things, including bounties, jail time, and a guards system. Make the economy ENTIRELY player based so that gear lost on death is easily replaced by knowing a good black smith. Force us to actually PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE by making it impossible not to. Make us eat and drink to stay alive. Add in heat and cold exposure. Give the criminal element of the game an outlaw city since they'll be shunned from real towns.

EVE is that way - - - - - - ->

Eve is in space, not Tamriel, trollguy. Thanks for wasting your time though.

No more trollish than your idea here, the idea the few hundred players who want to play such as game could support it is beyond laughable.

EVE is a one-off, there'll not be an RPG of its kind, 'sandbox' is not the future, remotely.

Delith

BBSooner wrote: »

Delith wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I would say that sandbox is the past of gaming .. where is this huge trend towards sandbox gaming? I don't even think a true sandbox game would work anymore people just want to grief people and sandbox games are destroyed without a community.

DayZ, Rust, Minecraft, Everquest Next, Archeage, tons of indie developers, Pathfinder, Star Citizen, H1Z1.

Sandbox is not the past. It's coming, and you cannot stop it. We're tired of the same nonsense over and over again. Get ready.

Sandbox games aren't a new thing. Why you seem to think it's some gaming innovation that is on the horizon is beyond me.

I didn't say it's new. I said it's the future. The future isn't always new.

I'm excited to watch you eat those words.

kitsinni

Delith wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I would say that sandbox is the past of gaming .. where is this huge trend towards sandbox gaming? I don't even think a true sandbox game would work anymore people just want to grief people and sandbox games are destroyed without a community.

DayZ, Rust, Minecraft, Everquest Next, Archeage, tons of indie developers, Pathfinder, Star Citizen, H1Z1, Shroud of the Avatar,

Sandbox is not the past. It's coming back, and you cannot stop it. We're tired of the same nonsense over and over again. Get ready. Themepark is on the way out.

If all those game together get 1/4 of WoWs subs I'll eat my words. I liked sandbox games I just don't see them working anymore.

Delith

kitsinni wrote: »

Delith wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I would say that sandbox is the past of gaming .. where is this huge trend towards sandbox gaming? I don't even think a true sandbox game would work anymore people just want to grief people and sandbox games are destroyed without a community.

DayZ, Rust, Minecraft, Everquest Next, Archeage, tons of indie developers, Pathfinder, Star Citizen, H1Z1, Shroud of the Avatar,

Sandbox is not the past. It's coming back, and you cannot stop it. We're tired of the same nonsense over and over again. Get ready. Themepark is on the way out.

If all those game together get 1/4 of WoWs subs I'll eat my words. I liked sandbox games I just don't see them working anymore.

Trying to recreate the success of World of Warcraft instead of creating their own unique worlds with their own rules is exactly why almost every modern MMO toils day in and day out for a fraction of the WoW subs, as people play the game and realize they have already done this in another world with another engine.

A recreation of WoW is never going to have the same pull WoW had as far as subscribers go. It's not going to happen, and developers need to stop trying to make it happen. We've already played that game.

Crisscross

I like sandboxes, but I don't think they're "the future". Every game, from giant elaborate sandboxes, to tiny timekillers on the mobile device have their place in the entertainment industry. Folks and strokes, and all that.

That said, I do find it odd that the Elder Scrolls MMO is quite themeparky after the setting rose to prominence precisely because of Bethesda's sandbox elements. I don't think that's a good thing or a bad thing, so I disagree that Zen has any "catching up" to do, just that it's odd. They can make it as theme parky as they want, as long as the bottom line is it's a good theme park.