Play as you want.....what exactly does it mean?

Hilgara

I keep hearing the “Play as you want” quote waved about like a sword of righteousness by the nay sayers on this forum but I think they are misinterpreting the concept.
The game has very few restrictions as far as builds and rolls go. You can fulfil any roll in any class. You can combine any skills apart from those of other class skills. You can wear any armour and combine it with any of the afore mentioned combinations. This gives a massive amount of different combinations and this is what was meant by 'Play as you want' But they cannot be all equally as effective. There has to be BAD combinations just as there has to be a few OP combinations. Deciding on a build concept is part of the challenge of the game. It’s the thinking part as opposed to the button mashing part and like any puzzle it has to have failure modes. If a puzzle could be beaten with any and every attempt it wouldn’t be much of a puzzle would it?
Yes they have made some mistakes in balance and I’m not defending those but I just think the ‘play as you want’ thing is getting boring. Whatever is wrong with this game would not be fixed by making any and every combination equally as viable. Slotting abilities because you like the look of the animations should not be as effective as reading all the tooltip, checking where the synergies are with passives and other abilities. Testing and refining your rotation.
Finding the perfect build for your class is one of the most enjoyable aspects of any MMO. Don’t take it away.

circilion

Awesome Post OP. I can't help but agree.

Phantax

You're argument would be valid if it wasn't for a few basic facts-

•Only 2 classes are really valid, they way out-perform the other two
•Weapon choice is pretty much restricted to staff for any kind of decent FPS.
•Cloth is almost the only real armor choice as pretty well every attack uses magicka. (even stamina builds)
•End game is pretty well restricted to 'Group only' content.

Not exactly what I would call 'Play as You Want' !

Melufey

I play the way i want, but this isn't this easy like other ways. There are things that makes it more difficult for me to play. I'm playing more like ranger/rogue with my class/skills. Others are facerolling through Tamriel with their classes/skills.

And this shouldn't be the way to play as you want.

Hilgara

Phantax wrote: »

You're argument would be valid if it wasn't for a few basic facts-

•Only 2 classes are really valid, they way out-perform the other two
•Weapon choice is pretty much restricted to staff for any kind of decent FPS.
•Cloth is almost the only real armor choice as pretty well every attack uses magicka. (even stamina builds)
•End game is pretty well restricted to 'Group only' content.

Not exactly what I would call 'Play as You Want' !

Agreed. Which is why I said I wasn't defending the balance problems. It's the concept that some are misinterpreting.

Hilgara

Melufey wrote: »

I play the way i want, but this isn't this easy like other ways. There are things that makes it more difficult for me to play. I'm playing more like ranger/rogue with my class/skills. Others are facerolling through Tamriel with their classes/skills.

And this shouldn't be the way to play as you want.

I'm playing very much the rogue class with my NB. I've completed the vet content on it and enjoyed the whole thing using mostly just duel wield. There are a few very effective skill combinations in the class including the best damage mitigation skill in the game.

RedMiniStapler

"As long as you pay $15 a month, we don't care what you do in-game."

Melufey

@Hilgara‌
Yeah, i know. But this shouldn't be the only way to play. I want to change my skills for a lot of possible situations in fight (PvE and PvP). This makes the game for me more interesting then only this four or five skills that are useful.

Korkhan

Phantax wrote: »

You're argument would be valid if it wasn't for a few basic facts-

•Only 2 classes are really valid, they way out-perform the other two
•Weapon choice is pretty much restricted to staff for any kind of decent FPS.
•Cloth is almost the only real armor choice as pretty well every attack uses magicka. (even stamina builds)
•End game is pretty well restricted to 'Group only' content.

Oh crap! I must be doing something wrong soloing 50++ with my SnB NB in 5 heavy +2 light armor and enjoying it.

Phantax

Korkhan wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

You're argument would be valid if it wasn't for a few basic facts-

•Only 2 classes are really valid, they way out-perform the other two
•Weapon choice is pretty much restricted to staff for any kind of decent FPS.
•Cloth is almost the only real armor choice as pretty well every attack uses magicka. (even stamina builds)
•End game is pretty well restricted to 'Group only' content.

Oh crap! I must be doing something wrong soloing 50++ with my SnB NB in 5 heavy +2 light armor and enjoying it.

Oh crap... you can't read (or at least understand my post) Nowhere did I say my comments were set in stone, I did not say they are the only options !
"Weapon choice is pretty much restricted"
"Cloth is almost the only real armor choice"

You only have to read these forums to see my comments are accurate, nowhere did I say they were incontestable !

Sharee

The freedom to play as you want also brings the freedom to screw up as much as you want.

Melufey

Sharee wrote: »

The freedom to play as you want also brings the freedom to screw up as much as you want.

I should play naked and auto attack only! :-D :-P

Hilgara

Phantax wrote: »

Oh crap... you can't read (or at least understand my post) Nowhere did I say my comments were set in stone, I did not say they are the only options !
"Weapon choice is pretty much restricted"
"Cloth is almost the only real armor choice"

You only have to read these forums to see my comments are accurate, nowhere did I say they were incontestable !

So basically what you are saying is that there are OP builds for all weapons and armour types but they are just a bit of a challenge to find.

Yup, just as it should be

The_Sadist

Phantax wrote: »

You're argument would be valid if it wasn't for a few basic facts-

•Only 2 classes are really valid, they way out-perform the other two
•Weapon choice is pretty much restricted to staff for any kind of decent FPS.
•Cloth is almost the only real armor choice as pretty well every attack uses magicka. (even stamina builds)
•End game is pretty well restricted to 'Group only' content.

Not exactly what I would call 'Play as You Want' !

• Templars are valid healers and deal decent DPS, if you're talking about PvP I have no idea as that currently doesn't interest me. Nightblades need to be looked at.
• Once again, seems more PvP based, a healer in a dungeon uses a restoration staff, a tank typically uses a sword and shield, the DPS use whatever is relevant to their builds.
• Tank = typically heavy armour but light armour with spells does work. I know stamina builds are currently a little lacklustre but I do often seen hybrid Nightblades rocking light / medium armour. Light armour is obviously useful for Magicka intensive builds.
• No experience with endgame just yet (in terms of Craglorn), but it was expected. You can still play your character how you want, you simply have to play with other people (MMO after all).

So I partially agree.

The class system itself limits the whole 'play as you want' feel. I'm very disappointed there aren't a bunch of skills you can major/minor in and focus on (Major can hit 100, Minor 50 or something and non-listed like 25, you can't actually change these once you select them sort of thing). Each skill line is broken down further (Destruction -> Fire / Frost / Shock / Poison, Conjuration -> Daedric Summoning / Reanimation / Bound Equipment etc etc.) with skill points being a bit less common and therefore your decision matter.

But hey, that's just me.

cazlonb16_ESO

Phantax wrote: »

You're argument would be valid if it wasn't for a few basic facts-

•Only 2 classes are really valid, they way out-perform the other two
•Weapon choice is pretty much restricted to staff for any kind of decent FPS.
•Cloth is almost the only real armor choice as pretty well every attack uses magicka. (even stamina builds)
•End game is pretty well restricted to 'Group only' content.

Not exactly what I would call 'Play as You Want' !

Nightblades are actually pretty much fixed and very close to DK/Sorc by now. The bathrobe and staff issue is really bad though. Yes, it is possible to do even vet content in some other configurations, but it will be so much harder.

When people tank endgame stuff in cloth and without a shield, you know something is very wrong.

Soloeus

Wanna know what would suck? If 2/3 of the Skills that my character (Sorcerer) has weren't 100% worthless leaving me about 5 skills (and 4 destro skills and 1 mage skill) to be excited about using.

I bet almost anything that if any sorcerer agrees with me, they use the same Destro/Resto build I do with the same skills. They might even use the same morphs.

Oh and while there are a lot of great builds out there, the reason the build we all know to be great is common; is because the other options within that build are kind of ineffective overall.

So what you see with Proc Fragments, Impulse/Critical Surge/Magelight is a symptom of a hidden problem; while Sorcerers have a few good synchronicities that make some of our abilities really good the rest of the package is lackluster period.

If ZoS would dare strengthen some of the really bad abilities sorcerers have, you would see more "willingness" to accept a nerf to some of our best abilities.

Why? Because we would get to use more of our build potentials instead of being gimped for it.

Phantax

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

The bathrobe and staff.

Bathrobe and staff... that's funny

Hilgara

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades are actually pretty much fixed and very close to DK/Sorc by now. The bathrobe and staff issue is really bad though. Yes, it is possible to do even vet content in some other configurations, but it will be so much harder.

When people tank endgame stuff in cloth and without a shield, you know something is very wrong.

I have a V12 sorc and a V10 NB both with Tamriel Hero achievement. I levelled the NB almost solely using Duel Wield and yes it was much more of a challenge than the sorc but also much more enjoyable. When I went back to the sorc I realised that it had been nerffed quite a bit so now I would say they are both on a par powerwise but I still have more fun on the NB

Melufey

Soloeus wrote: »

Wanna know what would suck? If 2/3 of the Skills that my character (Sorcerer) has weren't 100% worthless leaving me about 5 skills (and 4 destro skills and 1 mage skill) to be excited about using.

And this is the sad truth.
I'm wondering if Zenimax had ever made thoughts about the skills and morphs. I knew it at the stress test that this will be a problem in the final game. And i'm just a normal user.

RazielSR

The correct quote is "pay as you want".

Phantax

Melufey wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Wanna know what would suck? If 2/3 of the Skills that my character (Sorcerer) has weren't 100% worthless leaving me about 5 skills (and 4 destro skills and 1 mage skill) to be excited about using.

And this is the sad truth.
I'm wondering if Zenimax had ever made thoughts about the skills and morphs. I knew it at the stress test that this will be a problem in the final game. And i'm just a normal user.

Trouble is there are always 'optimal' builds, this is just a simple fact. Unfortunately Zenimax has made it so the gap between optimal and other build is so huge you are almost forced to use a 'cookie cutter' build.
Hell, if some of the non-optimal choices were even close that would be good enough. There are some skills I'd love to use just for the great animations or visual effects but its pointless as they are basically useless !

Melufey

@Phantax‌
Yes, there will be always an optimal build, but other builds shouldn't be this far behind like you mentioned.
As a NB i have a lot of intersting skills and options and most of them are really usefull in many different situations. But some skills could be really made more interesting and/or effective. ;-)

Hilgara

Soloeus wrote: »

Wanna know what would suck? If 2/3 of the Skills that my character (Sorcerer) has weren't 100% worthless leaving me about 5 skills (and 4 destro skills and 1 mage skill) to be excited about using.

I bet almost anything that if any sorcerer agrees with me, they use the same Destro/Resto build I do with the same skills. They might even use the same morphs.

Oh and while there are a lot of great builds out there, the reason the build we all know to be great is common; is because the other options within that build are kind of ineffective overall.

So what you see with Proc Fragments, Impulse/Critical Surge/Magelight is a symptom of a hidden problem; while Sorcerers have a few good synchronicities that make some of our abilities really good the rest of the package is lackluster period.

If ZoS would dare strengthen some of the really bad abilities sorcerers have, you would see more "willingness" to accept a nerf to some of our best abilities.

Why? Because we would get to use more of our build potentials instead of being gimped for it.

bet I play my Sorc completely different to you. I have a trap bar and lay down deadric tomb between me and the group of say 3 mobs I am going to hit from the second bar. Also lay down volcanic rune then harness mgica on myself before dropping weakening prison on the caster or ranged mob. Switch to 1st bar. The melee come running towards me and hit the volcanic rune. after they recover they then hit each one of the mines (3 in a line between me and them) all this time I am focusing the other mob with the standard crystal frag and velocious curse combo. If any mob gets close I cast Thundering presence on myself. 2 mobs down now just the one in the curse left.

If there is another sorc anywhere doing exactly the same I will eat my own collection of fat worms

Demira

Soloeus wrote: »

Wanna know what would suck? If 2/3 of the Skills that my character (Sorcerer) has weren't 100% worthless leaving me about 5 skills (and 4 destro skills and 1 mage skill) to be excited about using.

I bet almost anything that if any sorcerer agrees with me, they use the same Destro/Resto build I do with the same skills. They might even use the same morphs.

Oh and while there are a lot of great builds out there, the reason the build we all know to be great is common; is because the other options within that build are kind of ineffective overall.

So what you see with Proc Fragments, Impulse/Critical Surge/Magelight is a symptom of a hidden problem; while Sorcerers have a few good synchronicities that make some of our abilities really good the rest of the package is lackluster period.

If ZoS would dare strengthen some of the really bad abilities sorcerers have, you would see more "willingness" to accept a nerf to some of our best abilities.

Why? Because we would get to use more of our build potentials instead of being gimped for it.

I am so happy to see another Sorc posting about our lackluster abilities that I have been posting repeatedly in other posts about.
Thank you for posting this!
What pissed me off is seeing posts that NB are up to par with the sorc ...if anything the NB passed in dmg per sec over Sorc ...which has made me mad as hell hearing it from the NB.

cazlonb16_ESO

Phantax wrote: »

Trouble is there are always 'optimal' builds, this is just a simple fact.

Games with somewhat free class/skill systems tend to gravitate much more towards fotm builds than purely class based ones in fact. Just look at The Secret World, pretty much everyone in PvP plays either Assault Rifle+Sword or Blood Magic.

Phantax wrote: »

Unfortunately Zenimax has made it so the gap between optimal and other build is so huge you are almost forced to use a 'cookie cutter' build.

Yup. Curiously the balance is much worse in ( vet ) PvE than PvP though, usually it's the other way around.

Korkhan

Phantax wrote: »

Oh crap... you can't read (or at least understand my post) Nowhere did I say my comments were set in stone, I did not say they are the only options !
"Weapon choice is pretty much restricted"
"Cloth is almost the only real armor choice"

You say it is pretty much restricted and I say it is not restricted at all. Which one is closer to "weapon choice is restricted 100%"?

I do however admit that weapon choice depends on the playstyle. Some weapons (or even better skills) are much better for group play where AOE is the only way to play (the most effective way) but these weapons/skills will not take you far in solo veteran content.

Phantax wrote: »

You only have to read these forums to see my comments are accurate, nowhere did I say they were incontestable !

If I did learn about the game from the forums I would not be playing it and I would be surprised that anyone would play it.

Soloeus

Phantax wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

The bathrobe and staff.

Bathrobe and staff... that's funny

Not really, its belligerent snarling. I like Robe and Staff and shouldn't be forced to change my playstyle because of you.

If you want better synchs between your passives/actives and skill lines with weapon lines, ask for it. If you want better gear that reduces Stamina Costs for Skills or a fighters guild passive that reduces Stamina Costs of Skills then ask for it. But you don't want a better experience, the experience you want is making others miserable.

Teevesnacks

Play as you want - any class can tank, heal or dps

It's always been a big restriction in mmo's when certain classes are stuck with one role, now anyone can much more easily replace a vacant spot in pvp/pve

cazlonb16_ESO

Soloeus wrote: »

I like Robe and Staff and shouldn't be forced to change my playstyle because of you..

And who is asking for that, exactly ? If that is the single best option for dps, healing, tanking and soloing at the same time it should be obvious that there is a massive balancing problem though.

Audigy

The Play as you Want at ESO is more practicable as for instance at WOW or SWTOR - in theory at least.

You can pretty much walk your own path and wont run into obstacles based on what the mobs or quests require. I didn't yet check any builds and get along just fine with two totally different Chars and Specs.

Yes some specs do more DPS, but that's a standard procedure in any good RPG.

The problems ESO is facing and I believe the DEVs didn't factor this one in due their inexperience in MMO´s, is the community.

Addons allow players to bully others around who do less dps, hps etc. For a vocal minority online gaming is a job, therefore its all about performance. These people will not tolerate that you play as you want - no! They will demand that you play as they want, in that way which they see as the best.

This ruins the whole concept by ESO and it is a real shame.


The game is fine, its the community which takes away the free choices just like they did in so many other MMO´s before. That bossing around, that spying on other peoples performance is the problem and as long people can check on meters and rankings no MMO will be really free

Hilgara

Audigy wrote: »

Addons allow players to bully others around who do less dps, hps etc. For a vocal minority online gaming is a job, therefore its all about performance. These people will not tolerate that you play as you want - no! They will demand that you play as they want, in that way which they see as the best.

This ruins the whole concept by ESO and it is a real shame.


The game is fine, its the community which takes away the free choices just like they did in so many other MMO´s before. That bossing around, that spying on other peoples performance is the problem and as long people can check on meters and rankings no MMO will be really free

Sounds like you need a new guild. I've heard that some guild demand you publish your recount DPS in chat after every fight. I've been in these type of guilds before in other games and now I avoid them like the plague. It's not the whole community though. I'm in a couple of good guilds with some great people who's might have a good laugh at you if you die horribly in a trial but would never criticize.