The future of Vampires & Werewolves.

Shagreth

Greetings,

so, in my opinion, both were handled pretty poorly in ESO, and I'm not talking about numbers, how overpowered/underpowered they are etc. mainly about how they were implemented in the world, zero interaction with other NPC's of your 'kind', pros/cons of being one and how you manage the condition, as I see there is little depth there. In general - both concepts feel like an afterthought.

Some may argue this isn't the case, or even if it is, it shouldn't be priority and that the game is in need of much more important fixes/improvements, and that ESO isn't a vampire/werewolf simulator. I've seen others say that vampires/werewolves should never have been implemented. Reality is -- they are here to stay and have been part of TeS lore since, well, the beginning. This thread is for those that care for said concepts and want to see them evolve at some point.

Well then, do you think they should both be overhauled at some point? That they should be given missions or at least special interactions with NPC's in the upcoming expansion? Maybe even a unique place in the justice system that comes with it. Please, do share your thoughts and ideas.

BBSooner

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

The concepts I think are fine, but the tweaking is going to be tough. You can't make them too good, otherwise everybody will be them and Cyrodil is just going to be like 'Underworld: Tamriel', and you need to make them good enough to benefit situationally.

There needs to be a reason NOT to be a vamp or WW, and there needs to be a reason TO be a vamp or WW. Balancing that is going to be incredibly difficult.

Lyall84

Both need an overhaul

I hate, I mean HATE, how only one single NPC werewolf in the entire game actually acknowledged that I was also a werewolf.

Arsenic_Touch

Other

Vampirism by itself is fine, when all of it works, which still isn't the case.
However they kind of fell flat on npc interaction with vampires, how many times have you run into an npc that hated vampires and insulted vampires and you just stood there with your glowing red eyes and took it?

How many times have you interacted with other vampires and they didn't even blink an eye at you? It's a shortcoming for pretty much all characters though because you don't get any acknowledgement for your race at all, even if you're a dark elf dealing with someone who hates dark elves, and so on.

Werewolves on the other hand? there is no future until they overhaul it completely.

There is absolutely no benefit to being a werewolf when you aren't transformed. Sure, the ultimate gain when you have the werewolf slotted when you get hit can be useful, but when gameplay is designed around avoiding damage and veteran content is centered around dying in one hit or avoiding damage, it renders the ultimate pointless.

It should have never been an ultimate, it should've been a toggle that wears off after a certain point and when toggled it gives you a new skill bar with your werewolf skills and perhaps access to other skills. There should've been non transformed passives.

LordEcks

Both need an overhaul

Find it comical that multiple groups of Werewolf Hunters will ask me (a werewolf) to help me hunt down and kill werewolves.

I almost expect the culprit werewolf to show up... kill everyone but me.. then look over at me smiling like... "Sup" and walk off.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

It's true that the quests do not reflect your status and that is an RP problem.

I had to get vampire blood to cure the king and went through a moderately complex set of situations to get it.

"Here I got some" should really have done the trick.

Anyway I did not care much but the father vampire was actually pretty cool and although I knew there was nothing there I kinda felt bad he did not acknowledge my status.

The actual Vampire combat is just fine, I do enjoy it.

Braddass

The problem is that there is a huge upside, and no downside to being a Vamp. They need to burn in the sunlight, or at least attacked on sight by guards and kept out of cities.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Braddass wrote: »

The problem is that there is a huge upside, and no downside to being a Vamp. They need to burn in the sunlight, or at least attacked on sight by guards and kept out of cities.

Ignore the pyromancers then. They are not dangerous and my 1100 fire resist is just for show.

ItsMeToo

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

I would love to see 1st person neck Vampire bites with their own skill tree added.

Darkstorn42

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

I like the idea of "a unique place in the justice system" and I think that as a vamp and wolf you should be able to go back to a new instance of the quest location with possible daily quests available to you. (This could coincide with the justice system, similar daily quests for the vamps, wolves, and nones.)

Auralia

Other

Don't like either, so don't really care what they do with them.

indytims_ESO

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

In a perfect world, Vampirism/Lycanthropy would grant the player some minor benefits - as well as some minor detriments to balance it all out.

It -feels- like ZOS is trying to find that middle-ground.

Personally, I think they should be for flavor only. It kinda makes me wanna vomit watching people 'sell bites' for gold, as well as the the initial rush of all the 'me too!' crowd trying to get bitten/infected so that they, too, could score some uber-ability that would grant them a mightier epeen.

If you just wanna be a vamp or werewolf because it's 'cool', then you don't have much reason to complain about how 'powerful' or 'weak' they are.

Halke

Both need an overhaul

Braddass wrote: »

The problem is that there is a huge upside, and no downside to being a Vamp. They need to burn in the sunlight, or at least attacked on sight by guards and kept out of cities.

No downside? Have you seen all the fire in this game? In almost every dungeon?

MonkeyAssassin24

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

It's true that the quests do not reflect your status and that is an RP problem.

I had to get vampire blood to cure the king and went through a moderately complex set of situations to get it.

"Here I got some" should really have done the trick.

Anyway I did not care much but the father vampire was actually pretty cool and although I knew there was nothing there I kinda felt bad he did not acknowledge my status.

The actual Vampire combat is just fine, I do enjoy it.

Although I guess there would have been some xp missed out on, this would have really been one of those little moments that can happen in games that make you go "oh wow, cool!". Sadly, it doesn't seem to matter what kind of character you play, you are merely a generic hero to every NPC in the world.

reggielee

Other

I look on the whole vamp/were thing as a side game to play. something new to try or something to get cured of as fast as possible. I miss the way that if you had the trait villagers would disdain you etc. there should be more of a reaction from the npcs if you walk in being a blood sucker or eater of flesh. heh i think the intention was there but unintended mechanics made them too important to gameplay. the affects should be more cosmetic with maybe a small skill to use in battle

Soulharvester

Both need an overhaul

Both need a revamp.

Not only do vampires and werewolves need it, but the quest to get them needs to be removed.

Nox_Aeterna

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

People really need to get over the whole , vampires/WW should have problems with NPCs or that vampires should burn during the day ...

This is a MMO , there are things that just wont work in it like it would in a single player game , end of story.

Simple example , is the AD story line , you are asked to kill tons of WW (this also happen in the other factions but not for so long if i remember right) and this is a big part of the main quest.

Oh , but you are a WW youself ... the again , just because you are a WW or a vamp does not mean you wont hunt other like you , lets then make all those quests branch into options so that you can pick, which might require even more branches down the line :P.

That would require an absurd amount of work.

So it is better this way , they just need to balance them and make their skills actually work.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Soulharvester wrote: »

Both need a revamp.

Not only do vampires and werewolves need it, but the quest to get them needs to be removed.

No we need that one. I have a level 34 Vampire Witch and she went in at level 28. My Vampire DK did it at level 19 and although it was a brutal "hammer the keys 'cause nothing is happening" episode for the DK it was worth the pain. Without that both would have cruised the ... well much higher level test.

You get Vampire powers for the quest and it's perfectly doable at quite low levels. We don't need no easy entry vamps thank you.

MercyKilling

Other

I actually despise vampire and werewolf characters. NPC or player. I pay for Elder Scrolls, not Underworld Scrolls.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

MercyKilling wrote: »

I actually despise vampire and werewolf characters. NPC or player. I pay for Elder Scrolls, not Underworld Scrolls.

Vampires and Werewolves are as TES as Elves, Men and the sentient Lizards and Cats. We have not got to the slug people yet but that could even happen.

I imagine you despise lots of things, but that does not make them any less Elder Scrolls.

Lyall84

Both need an overhaul

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

People really need to get over the whole , vampires/WW should have problems with NPCs or that vampires should burn during the day ...

This is a MMO , there are things that just wont work in it like it would in a single player game , end of story.

Simple example , is the AD story line , you are asked to kill tons of WW (this also happen in the other factions but not for so long if i remember right) and this is a big part of the main quest.

Oh , but you are a WW youself ... the again , just because you are a WW or a vamp does not mean you wont hunt other like you , lets then make all those quests branch into options so that you can pick, which might require even more branches down the line :P.

That would require an absurd amount of work.

So it is better this way , they just need to balance them and make their skills actually work.

Understood, but I would at least like the NPC dialog to change to something like "why are you hunting your own kind!" Thing instead of, "stop resisting you dirty mortal".

I have no problems with the quest lines or how they are run, I just want them to treat me like what I am while I am doing it.

There is one single quest, in the VR8 AD area (not sure what level...35ish for AD players? VR3 for DC?) where at the end of the quest...

...you can either kill the Werewolf husband, or tell him to live with his wife? (I think it may have been a second dude, not that there is anything wrong with that) If you let him live, and talk to him AFTER you turn in the quest. He asks you "how did you deal with controlling yourself". Of course I had a couple of options of things to chose from. Either way the dialog changes to "thank you for the help" after you make the selection. Non werewolf players skip the how do you control it part and go to the thank you part.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

I very much enjoy my Vampires. I had one in Skyrim and liked him OK but nothing special. I actually liked my Dark Elves' werewolf "Rapid Transit" quite a bit more in Skyrim. He was weak, well the Dark Elf was severely OP, but fun.

My Vampires in this game are delicious. I have to sit a while before playing them. I have 8 chars and 4 fighters and I have to get in the right frame of mind to properly play my perverse evil characters. I actually think, dealing with some attractive Wood Elf for example, 'sure you bet, I'll get on it right away ... mmmm I bet you're tasty, I'll guess type AB- for this one." I walk slowly through newbie areas at stage 4, drooling over the new blood sometimes. Circle an especially attractive char a few times. I do get a few responses once in a while.

RP oh yeah!

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Both need an overhaul

not just vamp/ww, but fighters guild. There should be a different anti-undead line that deals more with powers given by meridia, while fighters guild deals more closely with physical damage fighters. There was an idea about giving players the choice of daedra princes they would like to worship, giving them a skill line pertaining to that prince. Meridia should be the choice for those who actually hate those abominations. Right now, everyone is forced to hate those abominations. You either take the traits, or you be gimp. Even other vampires and WW take the traits. It all just seems thrown in there as it is. To go with transforming the fighters guild line into the Meridia line and making fighters guild a real fighters guild, the power of the anti-undead skills can be made stronger. Also because it becomes one of the one or the other type of skill lines, like WW and vampire are.

Or, as @Soloeus‌ stated, Silver hand or Vigilant of Stendar lines would make more sense as Werewolf/Vampire/Daedra hunter skill lines than the fighters guild. Merric may be a Vigilant of Stendar and Sees-All-Colors may be a worshiper of Merida, but the overall Fighters guild just isn't about increasing your damage to undead and all that jazz. Its about kicking ass and taking names over tamriel, whatever the target. The bounties in Cyrodil also have nothing to do with Daedra, undead, or Werewolves so I don't see why they bothered making the rest of it that way.

---

Vamp really needs a lot of tweaking, in ways that give people clear reasons why the would want to Not just stay stage 4 all the time. Survivability makes no drastic change and the only 'power gain' is in cost reduction to vampire skills only. The min plus in vampire is the traits, but i think most of those traits should tie into the stages instead of remaining static. Survivability noticeably higher at stage 1 than 4 as well as power being lower, and power being higher at stage 4, but damage input is higher and become almost completely reliant on healing skills to restore health with non-vamp healing abilities having reduced effect on you. The extra power would have to be more than just the little cost reduction. More like extra damage dealt to non-undead. Werewolfs do more damage, but vampires aren't exactly stronger stronger.

Drain essence is also essentially only truly useful in PvE or against dummies. It doesn't work on a target that is blocking, which is mind boggling. The only skill you can't execute on someone because they are holding the block button. On top of that they can just CC break it and still become immune to the drain effect for a long while.

Feed should hurt your target as well. My idea was 80% target health @ S4, 40% at S3, 25% at 2, and 10% at 1. Its also CC breakable so theres kinda not much reason to do it on another player unless you are rolling with a group, just so they can get a few free hits.

---

Werewolf needs an overhaul with how transformation works, as well as eliminating the inability to defend yourself while transformed. I was thinking a stage system for them too to make them more interesting too, with the risk of forced transforming the higher the stage and other penalty/benefit related details. I still believe the transformation should simply be a toggle, but the idea of making the ultimate act like overload is also good. The transformation being on a timer and costing a buttload of ultimate is just bad. Its not a big deal for one of the single player TES games, but it doesn't work in an MMO, and certainly not against people. All that ultimate just to be a defenseless wolf that will end up CC locked to death. People should be "OMFG Werewolf", but its the very opposite as things are.

---

If they ever get around to it, NPC recognition of being a vampire or werewolf, good or bad, would be welcome. It probably wouldn't be too bad since we are hero's and all, but there would still be those NPC groups that don't like us for being vampires, like NPC Vigilant of Stendar or Silver hand.

Darkeus

Both need an overhaul

imo vamps and ww should be like other class skill lines with no special weakness but not super powered, atm vamps are pulverized by fire and i find it crap... ok get some small bonus dmg vs vamps,ww but not wth is now.... if vamp or ww are killed in 1 hit then should be vice versa also, vamps and ww should kill everybody in 1 hit.

Soloeus

Both need an overhaul

Fighters Guild should have helped Stamina Builds instead of working against Vamp/Werewolf.

Working against Vamp/Werewolf should have been given to a different skill line such as Silver Hand, Vigilant of Stendar or something else. A skill line that like Vamp/Werewolf requires you to get infected and instead of joining them, taking a quest line against them to join this faction.

This would have been a first right step.

Pele

I think there should be NPC awareness and alternate mission options as well. It was quite amusing to meet the quest giver who loathed vampires and had me hunt them down.

Braddass wrote: »

The problem is that there is a huge upside, and no downside to being a Vamp. They need to burn in the sunlight, or at least attacked on sight by guards and kept out of cities.

Fire and poison say hi.

Braddass

Look at the top end PvP and PvE builds. At least half of them are Vamp. That is a clear indication Vamps are not balanced.

Vamps need to be on par with Weres, not the other way around.

BrassRazoo

Other

Removed from game.

Digiman

Both concepts are fine, but in need of tweaking

Really looked forward to being a vampire, but from what I have read it seems to really restrict my freedom of player style in the game. Wouldn't want to see them removed that happens and I would completely leave this game as it clearly becomes another WoW based game.

Whisper292

Other

Okay, first for the original question: I picked Other, mostly because I know next to nothing about WWs. As a vampire, I think there definitely need to be tweaks. I do believe both races should be acknowledged by the NPCs somehow, especially in vampire- and ww-based quests. I would like to see more vamp-based quests. I think Stage One should last longer than half an hour. The biggest tweak I'd like to see is feeding. The feeding animation is nasty and doesn't remotely resemble biting. It desperately needs to be changed.

Now for the rant. There are so many posts above that I want to quote and respond to that it's not even funny, so I just won't bother quoting them.

Anybody who says there's no downside to being a vamp really doesn't know what he's talking about. Not only are we susceptible to fire, our health recovery rate is greatly reduced, and many of us believe our appearance alone is a downside.

And let's talk about prejudice. Yes, there needs to be something in the game that serves to acknowledge that a char is a vampire. A werewolf can pass as human, as far as I know, but with a vamp, you're stuck with it. It only makes sense that they would be recognized by NPCs, at least at higher stages. Perhaps they will do something with that when the justice system is implemented. Not allowing them in the cities at all is unfair because it would make the game unplayable for a lot of us. There would be no crafting, no ability to complete the major questlines, and no ability to buy/sell/repair unless we just happened to find a vendor on the road, who may or may not sell to us either because we're vamps. Also, it's not like we're biting anybody in the cities. We're only able to feed on hostiles, and even then only when we can successfully sneak up on them. If we're punished for being in the cities, we should be allowed to do something to be punished for.

That being said, it's not just NPC prejudice we have to deal with. I can't tell you how many threads I've seen (including this one) where players said they hated vampires and thought they should be removed from the game altogether. While I'm starting to understand a bit more why some people feel this way, I find many of their comments just as offensive as they find vampirism. Or I'll be in zone chat and have to listen to people vamp bashing there. Yes, I know I can turn zone chat off, but thanks for pointing that out. I do very often, simply because the chat window breaks immersion in the first place. But that's not the point here. Somebody above mentioned prejudice for other human/mer races, and it's basically the same thing. There are people who hate elves too. Should they be removed from the game?

Lastly, I'm a roleplayer, and so many people don't want the vamps in the game that unless a person is in a vamp-friendly rp guild, it's pretty much impossible to do so, even if said vamp is taking a certain path in spite of their vampirism and/or has taken precautions to hide it. Not all of us want to go be-bopping around town at Stage Four.

RedMiniStapler

Braddass wrote: »

The problem is that there is a huge upside, and no downside to being a Vamp. They need to burn in the sunlight, or at least attacked on sight by guards and kept out of cities.

As a vamp...
Fighting against mobs : i feel like a powerful and dangerous predator tiger. Rawr!
Fighting against mobs with fire damage : I feel ever so powerful as a tiny kitten. Meow~