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Nightblade DW/2h in trials since 1.2.3?

Thejollygreenone
Thejollygreenone
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How are NBs with DW or 2h doing in trials since 1.2.3 hit? Incapacitate paired with heavy attack clipping flying blades had some hype before the patch. The changes to wrecking blow were also giving theory-crafters some ideas.

Have any vr12 NBs tried either of these builds in trials with according high-end stamina gear? If so what sort of results did you see? Are they as close to competitive as some were speculating pre-1.2.3?

(I'd welcome input from other classes in conjunction with these two weapon-choices for trials as well, I suppose, but the change to incapacitate really was a game changer for DW so I'm mainly interested in the outcome of that)

I'm also certainly curious about if bow is any more usable in trials since the patch, but A. that would border on throwing this thread into Weapon Skills forum's territory as well as Dungeons+Trials territory all at once :3 and B. I'm already pretty convinced bow's place in trials remains as dismal as before.

If anyone had some numbers regarding this situation, I'd greatly appreciate it. I've been trying to accumulate a pure[ish] stamina set to see for myself but I've never been the economical type, so it's taking a long time ._.
Edited by Thejollygreenone on June 29, 2014 11:29PM
  • Andy22
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    How are NBs with DW or 2h doing in trials since 1.2.3 hit?

    1.2.3 did not change much at all, u basically get a 3% dps boost if u use the Flurry+heavy attack "clipping" build. U also get a effective 15% stamina resource boost after 1.2.3.

    I tested a flurry "clipping" build before 1.2.3 and was doing ok in Trials, the only "nice" change is that u can better sustain it with a normal none potion build setup.

    The biggest problem is that all the rage glyphs are bugged and basically did drop my DPS by more than the haste change can compensate for. So for my build the patch was actually a DPS drop. If they fix the rage glyphs, its a very slight dps boost and the gap between a Flurry+Light "clipping" and Flurry+Heavy "clipping" build got smaller. This means u either use a light attack to clip Flurry, which is harder to time or u simply hold the button and clip with a heavy attack. The light version is more dps, but the heavy is easier to play.

    So in AA me and a guildmate got around 700-850 DPS on boss 1, 700-800 on 2, 700-750 on 3 and 650-700 on boss 4, with a Flurry "clipping" build. I was playing the light attack version and he was doing the heavy version. He plays with 3* Weapon damage rings/neck, i play my version as potion build with 3* potion reduction glyphs.

    The dps in AA is "good enough" so that we can play it if we feel like it and have a staff alternative. Also Keep in mind, that u generate your beloved Veil much slower and dropping a Veil may actually be a DPS loss, so only use it if u "must" for group defense purposes. Thats because ZOS scales it with spell power/magicka, rather than leaving it "neutral" so Ultimates have the same "viability" regardless if the build.

    As noted the patch did actually lower my DPS, so the patch did not really change the viability to me. Staff is still easier to play and does more DPS, but DW is a "fun" alternative.

    I tried to setup a 2h build, but no matter what combination i tried in regards to canceling/clipping the time it takes to rotate the 2h skills is simply to high, with really high stamina cost. So while u could "solve" the stamina cost problem using templar buffs/shards, the 2h DPS is still lower compared to DW, at least as NB.


    PS: I know it's silly that DW is only decent if u "clip" animations, but i gave up on hoping for a fix to there horribly broken animation system. I now simply use whatever works, no matter how silly it actually is.
    Edited by Andy22 on June 30, 2014 1:40PM
  • Vuron
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    Sadly, I'm not sure if a melee build will ever be able to match a ranged build for end-game fights.

    Even if the actual damage numbers get to the point where they are similar, you will still have the issue of boss mechanics. One of the biggest downsides to playing a melee build (whether it's stamina or magicak based) is the need to get out of the boss AoE is most VR dungeons or trials. Any time you need to move, your DPS will take a hit. Standing at range and unloading without the fear of getting blasted by a boss mechanic has always been a major advantage for these builds.

    Also, as Andy said, ult generation isn't nearly as good without some sort of DoT or HoT running and Veil takes a big hit if you're running a stamina build.

  • Andy22
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    Vuron wrote: »
    Also, as Andy said, ult generation isn't nearly as good without some sort of DoT or HoT running and Veil takes a big hit if you're running a stamina build.

    As noted this is sadly not this important, other than for group defense. Veil does not improve your dps on a Flurry build, so if u have multiple NB or your raid do not rely on frequent veils anyway, this drawback is "acceptable".

    On the other hand this may result in your male NB players show up more often or "happier" for your trial runs, if they can play a DW build and are no longer "forced" to dress up like a girl and "pew pew" with a staff.

    Edited by Andy22 on June 30, 2014 4:10PM
  • Thejollygreenone
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    I appreciate the feedback guys, Especially Andy for his numbers-specific feedback. Unfortunately though, Andy, I'm a little confused by your post. Nowhere had I read that flurry was the ability to be spammed in a DW build, but I suppose I also haven't been actively looking.

    What I saw when the PTS was live and those were testing incapacitate is that flying blade would be the superior stamina dump for DW. TBH I never saw flurry, with it's clunky animation time, as a more efficient stamina dump than flying blade. Have you tried this heavy attack animation clipping with flying blade instead of flurry?

    And the results with 2h don't surprise me, tbh. The reason I asked about it is because someone in the same discussion when this patch was in the PTS mentioned that clipping wrecking blows may have some respectable output with the right gear.

    However, without proper stamina damage gear etc, wrecking blow+light attacks alone hovered around 500dps sustained for me(I'll go back and double check). This is of course with no group buffs. I suppose my question here is that I'm not sure 2h is as un-doable as some seem to think. With a proper ultimate, a few more supporting abilities, and the right gear, I'd say 7-800 dps with a 2h shouldn't be all too hard to achieve.
  • CapuchinSeven
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    Andy22 wrote: »
    PS: I know it's silly that DW is only decent if u "clip" animations, but i gave up on hoping for a fix to there horribly broken animation system. I now simply use whatever works, no matter how silly it actually is.

    For me, it made me almost totally stop playing, although I was on last night just to try out a new snipe build. It just spells broken game to me.
    However, without proper stamina damage gear etc, wrecking blow+light attacks alone hovered around 500dps sustained for me(I'll go back and double check)

    Let us know, I'd be interested to know because I considered trying a stamina build using almost total light, heavy attacks just for a laugh. Using things like Dawnbreaker +10% buff and Haste, maybe even throwing in a little heavy armour for melee damage it might almost be worth it.

    With the changes to medium armour and snipe, I've started to wonder just what sort of long range snipe damage I could actually deal, using magicka just to buff (stealth 100% crit chance, haste etc)
    Edited by CapuchinSeven on July 1, 2014 12:49AM
  • Andy22
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    Unfortunately though, Andy, I'm a little confused by your post. Nowhere had I read that flurry was the ability to be spammed in a DW build, but I suppose I also haven't been actively looking.

    Here is the link to my build
    Edited by Andy22 on July 1, 2014 11:50AM
  • Thejollygreenone
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    Andy22 wrote: »
    Unfortunately though, Andy, I'm a little confused by your post. Nowhere had I read that flurry was the ability to be spammed in a DW build, but I suppose I also haven't been actively looking.

    Here is the link to my build

    Thanks for the link mate, that answers some questions. However, one question remains on my mind: Why not flying blade instead of flurry? Have you tried the flying blade alternative? With siphoning attacks and incapacitate, I remember specifically hearing good things about heavy attack cancellation with flying blade. I'd imagine it'd be worth seeing the dps that can produced with a different move combo.

    On a side note, back to 2h, I did go back and try wrecking blow. Turns out when I was mucking around with it I probably wasn't completely unbuffed, the numbers would suggest I was using mark target at the time.

    I went back and tried again which is how I came to this conclusion, however during this testing got some accurate results. When I was actually unbuffed this time, still not in ideal stamina gear (I use a split magicka stamina build currently), I was hovering between 400 and 450 dps with just wrecking blow/light attacks and animation cancelling.

    When adding mark target into the mix, that jumped up to a solid 500. I imagine with hundings rage, full stamina enchants, some weapon crit/damage potions, flawless dawnbreaker etc., this could reach some solid numbers.

    Unfortunately, I don't have the financial means to make a whole new set of gear for this, so if anyone with a good stamina set currently who has 2h leveled up would like to take over for me, I'd love to see what results one could get when properly built. Until then I'll keep saving up for that new set of gear. :3
  • CapuchinSeven
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    At a guess, it's because it uses very little stamina, next to nothing. If you're using it to cancel animations you're getting a good chunk of damage for very little stamina.
  • Thejollygreenone
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    At a guess, it's because it uses very little stamina, next to nothing. If you're using it to cancel animations you're getting a good chunk of damage for very little stamina.

    But what if how much stamina it cost didn't matter? What if you could keep your stamina up indefinitely like most magicka users do? (This should be achievable through siphoning attacks/potions, as well as weaving in magicka costing support spells like incapacitate and mark target)

    If the only issue is stamina cost, which I'm sure can be worked around, then flying blade should be the ideal stamina dump.
  • Andy22
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    If the only issue is stamina cost, which I'm sure can be worked around, then flying blade should be the ideal stamina dump.

    The reason is relatively simple, at usual V12 endgame values (174 WD + hundings + 2064 stamina + DK buff + 3x WD rings/neck) we get those values:

    Flurry: 5x 119 +1x 323 damage
    Flying Blade: 1x 466 damage
    Heavy attack: 202 + 248 damage

    Flurry + Heavy attack is 2.5s "cast time" in average = 918dmg + 450 damage = 547 dps
    Flying Blade + Heavy is 1.7s "cast time" in average = 466 + 450 = 539 dps

    So both combo's can deal around the same dps, but flying blade is much more stamina intensive, so the only advantage would be attack range. The problem is we need to do a heavy attack, so we completely loose this advantage in this combo. Both combos are also very similar to play so i don't see any advantage using flying blade over flurry.

    Also as u can see actually just "spaming" Flying blade is a DPS loss, in comparison to combine it with a heavy/light attack cancel. U only get 466 dps by spaming flying blade every second and u cant get this time any lower.


    PS: Also keep in mind that atm this only seem to work, because for some strange reason we get full DW heavy attack damage, instead of damage scaled down to the "channel" time. I suspect this has to-do with Rapid Strikes atk speed bonus and haste, so that ESo is not correctly capable to proper time the channel time on those server-client conditions. This means we should actually not get the full DW heavy attack damage, since u can't do the same with Staffs/2h. So thats a "buggy" advantage for DW heavy attack cancel's.
    Edited by Andy22 on July 2, 2014 9:56AM
  • Thejollygreenone
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    I appreciate the extra thought you put into my inquiry, thanks a bunch man, this really helps me get to the bottom of this.

    However there's one bit of info that hasn't been brought up regarding flying blade/heavy attack rotations.

    The idea in this case is that the heavy attacks are clipped to cause the length of the partial heavy attack charge along with the flying blade to equal that of any other classes general light attack clipping rotation: 1.3 seconds. (at least that is what I was told)

    Of course the damage on the heavy attack when clipping it so short isn't much. But the idea is that with the speed from haste, and the heavy attack damage boost from incapacitate, the rate of charging for the heavy attack is much higher and therefore will have the same or at least similar damage as normal when you end up clipping it properly.

    I suppose this extra clipping of heavy attacks could work with flurry too, but it kinda defeats the purpose when you cant finish the combo in the proper 1.3 seconds.

    Even taking away 50 damage from each tick of heavy attack to compensate for any potential heavy attack damage loss, the dps is still around 50 more by your math, if the heavy attacks do indeed to the same damage in less time, than it would be more like 150 dps more with heavy attack/flying blade.

    However if we are counting haste into the heavy attack/flying blade combo, haste+rapid strikes should also be calculated into the dps output of heavy attack/flurry combo. Since that's too complicated for such napkin math, we could even just test flying dagger+heavy attack without incapacitate on a 1.3 second cycle and I'm still almost positive it'll be more dps.
  • Andy22
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    However there's one bit of info that hasn't been brought up regarding flying blade/heavy attack rotations.

    The idea in this case is that the heavy attacks are clipped to cause the length of the partial heavy attack charge along with the flying blade to equal that of any other classes general light attack clipping rotation: 1.3 seconds. (at least that is what I was told)

    The 1.7s are already "perfectly" clipped DW heavy attacks and the 1.3s are for clipping staff light attacks "perfectly" not DW. DW+Light attacks are around 1.15s not 1.3s, but there is no way to do a DW skill+heavy attack in 1.3s, not even a partially. The 1.7s are already the absolute minimum u can "try" to reach.

    In reality u will hardly even reach the 1.7s and its more close to 1.9-2.0s, so dps will be lower.

    Also the 1.7s are already with max. haste + medium armor + 2x weighted trait, this is as fast as u can get!

    PS: As noted using clipped DW heavy attack's do not result in "partially" damage attacks atm, this is a little bug only possible with DW.
    Edited by Andy22 on July 2, 2014 7:57PM
  • Thejollygreenone
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    How are you getting this info about the time required to have a partial charge attack+ability? Of course there are numbers posted about the internet detailing light attack speeds and such, but how do you know for sure that it's IMPOSSIBLE to clip a DW heavy attack with flying blade below 1.7 seconds?

    I tried testing it (on the pts since I don't have DW on my main), but without a heavy attack casting bar that shows me the exact duration, my stop watching skills will add a level of inaccuracy to this report. However, with that in mind, it seemed like I was able to pull the combo in less than a second and a half fairly easily.

    Unless you have some concrete method of timing that I seem to be missing, and this isn't all based off of theoretical numbers and speculation, I think that a 1.3 second rotation for DW heavy attack+flying blade is possible.
  • Gilvoth
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    what if the dev's made our "shade" a mirrior image of ourself? would be the exact damage out-put we need and would be 2 of us. i would be VERY happy with that :)
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Thejollygreenone
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    what if the dev's made our "shade" a mirrior image of ourself? would be the exact damage out-put we need and would be 2 of us. i would be VERY happy with that :)

    Yeah, I've been thinking Shades needs some sort of damage scaling for anyone to take it seriously.

    Although, your proposed changes seem a little over the top :3 But I like the way you're thinking, in that shades needs a way to scale with the player's damage and not just remain a flat low amount, regardless of how good ones gear is.

    I suspect it acts as its own separate entity, and has it's own damage calculation table independent to the player's. I'd imagine a sorcerer pet's auto attack behave in this fashion as well (I don't play a sorcerer so that's just a wild guess).

    Tbh, if sorcerer pet's auto attacks scaled decently with the players stats, and shade from nightblade had a similar mechanic, I think the 'pet' mechanic from each class would be much more appealing. At the very least it would to me.

    However with the changes to sorcerer pets, it seems they're used all the time anyway now.

    But, that's all a bit off topic so I'll end my part of the discussion there.
  • altrego9920_ESO
    sorc pets are rarely used, they dont scale well. It is much easier to fill the slot with something useful than a pet.
  • Andy22
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    How are you getting this info about the time required to have a partial charge attack+ability?

    I use a modified version of battlelog, that i can setup to show me the time in ms between any events. What i can measure in this case is the time in ms between two light attacks, while doing the combo, which is the time a single rotation needs. I do this for 30s and average the ms numbers, since the timing varies slightly do to lag. I than try to confirm this timing by doing the same using a 60s window and simply count the number of rotations i got in and divide it by 60.
    I repeat the test 2 times, the first is manually and the second tries to cut the timing using a macro tool. There is a particular interesting event called "ACTION_RESULT_QUEUED", that only happens if you try to use a skill/attack, while a other attack is still on internal cooldown. This event is a indicator that my macro timing is still to low, so i raise the timing until i do not see this event anymore. The result of this process is the lowest timing i can use in a macro.

    Of course there are numbers posted about the internet detailing light attack speeds and such, but how do you know for sure that it's IMPOSSIBLE to clip a DW heavy attack with flying blade below 1.7 seconds?
    see above, i'm also sorry it sounded like its "impossible". What i mean is that i was not able to confirm the 1.3/1.5s values via my test method's. I do not claim my numbers are 100% correct under all circumstances, but they are actually tested numbers and as you can see above i do go through a lengthy and complex test process.
    I tried testing it (on the pts since I don't have DW on my main), but without a heavy attack casting bar that shows me the exact duration, my stop watching skills will add a level of inaccuracy to this report. However, with that in mind, it seemed like I was able to pull the combo in less than a second and a half fairly easily.

    How did you determine this: "less than a second and a half" ? Keep in mind the animation's you see do not 100% match what happens internally with damage applied. So how exactly did you measure your 1.5s and how long was your test interval?

    The only "proper" way to test this manually with a stopwatch, is by doing this combo over a longer period of time like 60s and count (via battlelog/CLS) how many full attack rotations you got in and than divide it by 60.
    Unless you have some concrete method of timing that I seem to be missing, and this isn't all based off of theoretical numbers and speculation, I think that a 1.3 second rotation for DW heavy attack+flying blade is possible.

    I use the best method's that are available to me and going by my tests 1.3s was not possible, so if you can get 1.3 or 1.5s i'm interested in your "rotation" and the way you determined the timing.


    PS: If you have more accurate methods of timing rotations, i'm also happy to hear those. There is also the possibility that my EU server timings are different from US timings, but since i could confirm the public "known" 1.3s for staff light attacks from EU, i "concluded" there should be no real difference for other timings as well.
    Edited by Andy22 on July 3, 2014 11:13AM
  • Thejollygreenone
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    Andy22 wrote: »
    How are you getting this info about the time required to have a partial charge attack+ability?

    I use a modified version of battlelog, that i can setup to show me the time in ms between any events. What i can measure in this case is the time in ms between two light attacks, while doing the combo, which is the time a single rotation needs. I do this for 30s and average the ms numbers, since the timing varies slightly do to lag. I than try to confirm this timing by doing the same using a 60s window and simply count the number of rotations i got in and divide it by 60.
    I repeat the test 2 times, the first is manually and the second tries to cut the timing using a macro tool. There is a particular interesting event called "ACTION_RESULT_QUEUED", that only happens if you try to use a skill/attack, while a other attack is still on internal cooldown. This event is a indicator that my macro timing is still to low, so i raise the timing until i do not see this event anymore. The result of this process is the lowest timing i can use in a macro.

    Of course there are numbers posted about the internet detailing light attack speeds and such, but how do you know for sure that it's IMPOSSIBLE to clip a DW heavy attack with flying blade below 1.7 seconds?
    see above, i'm also sorry it sounded like its "impossible". What i mean is that i was not able to confirm the 1.3/1.5s values via my test method's. I do not claim my numbers are 100% correct under all circumstances, but they are actually tested numbers and as you can see above i do go through a lengthy and complex test process.
    I tried testing it (on the pts since I don't have DW on my main), but without a heavy attack casting bar that shows me the exact duration, my stop watching skills will add a level of inaccuracy to this report. However, with that in mind, it seemed like I was able to pull the combo in less than a second and a half fairly easily.

    How did you determine this: "less than a second and a half" ? Keep in mind the animation's you see do not 100% match what happens internally with damage applied. So how exactly did you measure your 1.5s and how long was your test interval?

    The only "proper" way to test this manually with a stopwatch, is by doing this combo over a longer period of time like 60s and count (via battlelog/CLS) how many full attack rotations you got in and than divide it by 60.
    Unless you have some concrete method of timing that I seem to be missing, and this isn't all based off of theoretical numbers and speculation, I think that a 1.3 second rotation for DW heavy attack+flying blade is possible.

    I use the best method's that are available to me and going by my tests 1.3s was not possible, so if you can get 1.3 or 1.5s i'm interested in your "rotation" and the way you determined the timing.


    PS: If you have more accurate methods of timing rotations, i'm also happy to hear those. There is also the possibility that my EU server timings are different from US timings, but since i could confirm the public "known" 1.3s for staff light attacks from EU, i "concluded" there should be no real difference for other timings as well.

    First off, your coming off a little condescending. No need for that here, simply trying to get some info. If I had a more accurate method of testing for you I wouldn't have posted about my by-eye stop watching, I'm sure you should have figured that out, nor would I be asking you for your results.
    Unless you have some concrete method of timing that I seem to be missing, and this isn't all based off of theoretical numbers and speculation, I think that a 1.3 second rotation for DW heavy attack+flying blade is possible.

    You did see I said, 'unless', right? As in, this paragraph was an inquiry to your methods, not a stab at them, as I clearly had no better way to test. I wasn't assuming what came after the word 'unless', I was asking. Sorry if that didn't come out right.

    It was not my intention come off hostile, just about everything I bring up in this thread and in mmo forums in general is in the pursuit of knowledge, either receiving or attempting to share, so I hope that wasn't misunderstood. I'd like to keep this conversation civil.

    Back to the discussion at hand, I'm prepared to accept that 1.3 seconds for a full rotation isn't doable if the timing is that off. I brought it up, as I've mentioned, not out of my own imagination, but from a thread talking about dual wields potential after 1.2.3 because of incapacitate, and in this discussion the value of 1.3 seconds was given for heavy attack clipping with flying blade.

    But what about anywhere between 1.3 seconds and 1.7 seconds? If you wanted to come off as more certain you should have told me a heavy attack with dual wield under 1.7 seconds isn't a heavy attack, even with haste on. That would've answered most of my questions.

    So I'll set up this precedent again since my overall question still doesn't seem to be answered. Unless you can tell me with the most certainty your testing provides that going under 1.7 seconds to charge a heavy attack with DW will result in a light attack every time, unless you can tell me that, I'm still going to believe under 1.7 seconds might be possible for the rotation discussed.

    On a side note: We sorta stopped talking about 2h's capability with wrecking blow/light attacks. While it seems it certainly wont provide the dps that dual wielding can, I think it could be semi-close behind, and therefore worth it if choosing 2h for the playstyle and not the potential. (Although spamming a cast time ability would suck for movement in trials, I'd still like to know I have the option)

    @Andy22, if your 2h skill tree is leveled high enough for uppercut, would you mind replicating your testing for this combination? If not, can you at least point me in the direction of where you got your modified combat log so I can do it myself, and that way I wouldn't have to keep asking you about your testing :3
  • Andy22
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    First off, your coming off a little condescending.

    Sorry this was not my intention, i'm still human so i also have bad days. I guess maybe the bold "IMPOSSIBLE" ticked me off a little.
    Unless you can tell me with the most certainty your testing provides that going under 1.7 seconds to charge a heavy attack with DW will result in a light attack every time, unless you can tell me that, I'm still going to believe under 1.7 seconds might be possible for the rotation discussed.

    Don't believe anything in those forums! No, not even from my "smart-ass", test all yourself and do not rely on "believing" things only because someone sound "about right" or "smart".

    So i will send you (via PM) my Battlelog version + instruction's so you can test and time this all yourself, i'm a little tired on testing DW/2h.

    The problem with 2h uppercut was the same as Flying Blade, i could not get a higher DPS rotation going, compared to Flurry.

    Maybe you can find a way to get a faster rotation, if you do please post your results here.

    good luck
  • Thejollygreenone
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    Andy22 wrote: »
    First off, your coming off a little condescending.

    Sorry this was not my intention, i'm still human so i also have bad days. I guess maybe the bold "IMPOSSIBLE" ticked me off a little.
    Unless you can tell me with the most certainty your testing provides that going under 1.7 seconds to charge a heavy attack with DW will result in a light attack every time, unless you can tell me that, I'm still going to believe under 1.7 seconds might be possible for the rotation discussed.

    Don't believe anything in those forums! No, not even from my "smart-ass", test all yourself and do not rely on "believing" things only because someone sound "about right" or "smart".

    So i will send you (via PM) my Battlelog version + instruction's so you can test and time this all yourself, i'm a little tired on testing DW/2h.

    The problem with 2h uppercut was the same as Flying Blade, i could not get a higher DPS rotation going, compared to Flurry.

    Maybe you can find a way to get a faster rotation, if you do please post your results here.

    good luck

    Fair enough on not believing anything in the forums, lol, I appreciate you sending me your Battlelog version, that'll solve the problem at hand here right quick, and stop me from nagging others for test results ^.^

    As to 2h and uppercuts viability, as it is I doubt that 2h uppercut will do more or even the same damage as the flurry rotation you've outlined, that was a logical conclusion from the beginning, 2h hasn't been all too promising throughout the game so far.

    It's simply that I'm the type of guy who's willing to skimp slightly on dps if it means I get to play with the weapontype I enjoy more, the only stipulation is the slightly part :P

    If the uppercut combo ends up being 200-300 less dps than the flurry combo with dual wield I certainly won't use it. But if it's say anywhere from 50-100 dps less total, that might be a value I would be okay with losing in return for my preferential choice of weapon.

    But anyway, as you're sending me a PM on where to get your Battlelog version, I'll just figure that out myself as mentioned.

    Cheers, thanks again.
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