Vet level took my motivation out back and beat it to death with an aluminum baseball bat.

Tannakaobi

babylon wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Nuuuu...I don't think any one of us here want to see solo only vet level quests...

er.... you what? No quests should be solo only.

Mages Guild and Fighters Guild quests are all solo, that's what I'm referring to. If they're solo-only, then probably Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests will also be solo-only.

And solo-only quests at vet level will suck donkey balls.

It's the Vet levels that suck donkey balls. Lets face it, ESO 1 - 50, great game, it then takes a nose dive and becomes a grind fest not even as good as games that are 15 years old.

Lets assume that Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests will be 51-60. Suddenly that sounds pretty good. It would make the Vet ranks pointless but meh! They are anyway...

The point is until they do come we just don't know. The real question is: Will we still be playing by then if VR are not improved?

nelsonus_ESO wrote: »

I also want to point out that VR12's beat down lower VR players in Cyrodil. Which means to really be at a level playing field you have to get to VR12.

I missed the craglorn free VR exp train before they nerfed it, so now Cyrodil has a million VR12 players and I am stuck grinding at half the exp that they got.

Aye, it seems to be a running theme in eso, if you are not a full time player spending 8+ hours every day on the game you get butt f***ed.

Tabbycat

This is probably the biggest reason why I'm leveling as slowly as I am. I'm hoping that it gives ZOS more time to improve the Veteran levels before I get there.

Worstluck

Tabbycat wrote: »

This is probably the biggest reason why I'm leveling as slowly as I am. I'm hoping that it gives ZOS more time to improve the Veteran levels before I get there.

This is what I wished I had done. I had a lot of time to play the past few months and I enjoyed the game immensely at first so I just played and played and got to VR10. Didn't have anything to do so I made an alt, got him to VR3, and he's been there since 1.1.2. In hindsight, I should have just played a lot less

Fairydragon3

Let see, Caps keep increasing, so people who are serious/casual have trouble with catching up

have to do the story in order to go to other zones, Very Linear in the grand scheme, plus Craglorn has caused the zones to go empty, so help is much more scarce.

You can go to craglorn, but they are all VR10-12 so of course you will get smashed, and crag is only for groups

Oh and did we forget that the fact that VR zones pretty much take the fun out of leveling an alt, since it's just doing EVERYTHING over agian

IMO VR is a good Idea...in small doses. VR should have only gone to 3, and you should have just as much freedom as you did in your main story. Not be restricted just because you haven't finished the main zone story

steveb16_ESO46

Tannakaobi wrote: »

It's the Vet levels that suck donkey balls. Lets face it, ESO 1 - 50, great game, it then takes a nose dive and becomes a grind fest not even as good as games that are 15 years old.

That's just about it. Returned to playing my Dc alt today, mid 30's level, after playing ArcheAge for a week or so.

As ever the story was fine. The dialogue was good and the combat and exploration fun. It looked as good as ever.

But there's nothing else. Can't PvP. Can only just push on with questing. And it's fine at that, pretty enjoyable for awhile.

But this game needs much more width and depth as it essentially has none. And to its credit it doesn't pretend to have any. There's not even any guild features to speak of.

We can see now that all it ever wanted to be was a hard core, no frills combat grinder. If it could leap into a DeLorean and head back to 2004, it would.

Which is fine i guess, if there is a market for it. It's not that I haven't got my money's worth from 1-50. It's a very fine, essentially single player MMO for that time. Then it turns hard-core combat grinder quite deliberately.

That's what it wants to be and that who it sees its long term customers being. We can complain that's not what the marketing said but there it is. Like it or lump it.

There's no right or wrong. If all you want to do is fight all the time then ESO is for you. If you want more than cursory afterthought land-sea-air travel and exploration, crafting, guilds, housing, commerce etc there are other games.

ESO is what it is and isn't going to change. It might do what it does more and better but it#s not going to change. Hell, at the moment there's no sign at all that Zen even recognise the existence of what some see as major problems.

I think a lot of people, people like me, need to just accept it's not ever going to be the MMO it said it was going to be. It's just another quite fun for a while minor league single focus MMO. That's all it wants to be and that's all some people want it to be.

Worstluck

Great post steve, I feel the same exact way and I could never had said that better myself. I will be joining you in Archeage when the beta comes out

Bloodfang

[/list]

Yankee

Elyna wrote: »

Not kidding. Vet lvling is arguably the worse part of this game. It basically turned into a Korean MMO with the grinding. And theres no real incentive to lvl anyway, theres no instant gear reward, no faction goodies, all we get are 3 outfits. Which are cool and all, but you need to give people more reason to go on a grind quest.

Ironic to read this. At VR7 I shelved my ESO progression and am playing a Korean MMO. Arguably the grinding is no worse, and at least it rewards XP for other things besides quests, like crafting. And player housing exists, not two+ years (maybe) down the road.

ESO is the best looking world I have seen in awhile, but IMO ZOS did not take the time to fill it with enough interesting things to do. It seems to me like the bean counters set a live date for financial reasons, so they came up with the VR leveling system out of desperation.

steveb16_ESO46

Worstluck wrote: »

Great post steve, I feel the same exact way and I could never had said that better myself. I will be joining you in Archeage when the beta comes out

I'm not saying AA is in any way perfect. It being a semi-open world PvP game the community is utterly vile. The questing is not up to ESO standards and relies heavily on text.

But against all that there's always something to do, something to build, something to craft, somewhere to explore. It fully supports guilds, in fact it's build for guilds and player co-operation. This weekend my guild put a lot of time into building a couple of merchant ships from the bottom up.

If ESO had half the width and depth of AA it'd be the game we hoped it would be. But horses for courses. People who find the never-ending VR grind fun probably won't like the pace of AA. I was happy to spend a week building my very own adventurers clipper but can see how that won't appeal to everyone by any means.

L1-50 I still think ESO is a very good, even if expensive, largely single player game. I don't regret buying it at all. i'm just sad VR is what it is.

nelsonus_ESO

VR's shouldn't increase your characters performance in PVP (gear or otherwise). It really puts off anyone who has a casual play schedule.

For instance, my brother can play maybe 6 hours a week max. In every pvp game we have played, he focuses on leveling when the game releases, and then gears and pvps at max rank. He has found the combat fun but the leveling is very difficult for him due to his casual playtime. He got to 35, but then we learned that VR ranks grant better gear for pvp AND craglorn was increasing the VR ranks. Upon realizing that he would have to spend an unbelievable amount of real life time to get to VR max, and that the VR max would be ever increasing, he quit.

What happens when a member of your pvp group quits a game? It trickles down. Why would I play ESO with half a group, when I can play another game with everyone. I wouldn't.

Singular

Sharee wrote: »

Vet is the same as normal, except you get one level per zone instead of 15. My suggestion? Forget about the level. Go to vet zones for the story, for the skyshards, for the sights. It only feels like a grind if you are hypnotizing the XP bar.

It's like tourism at its finest.

See the sights, enjoy the natives, kill a few to feel superior, and take some pics to show your friends.

Belitseri

Singular wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Vet is the same as normal, except you get one level per zone instead of 15. My suggestion? Forget about the level. Go to vet zones for the story, for the skyshards, for the sights. It only feels like a grind if you are hypnotizing the XP bar.

It's like tourism at its finest.

See the sights, enjoy the natives, kill a few to feel superior, and take some pics to show your friends.

This made me giggle! My idea of being a tourist isn't precisely serial killing, but...

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Oddly enough, I've really enjoyed the vet levels. 1-50 it always feels like you are just about to level, the vet levels take long enough, and mean so little, I feel like I can do whatever I want and just put along.

Also it is the first time I felt the game play was really all that interesting, as in you have to pay attention, or you just might die, a whole bunch. But one of my favorite experiences in gaming was grinding BAMs in Tera. This game really needs some bigger monsters strolling around!

Bloodfang

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Oddly enough, I've really enjoyed the vet levels. 1-50 it always feels like you are just about to level, the vet levels take long enough, and mean so little, I feel like I can do whatever I want and just put along.

Also it is the first time I felt the game play was really all that interesting, as in you have to pay attention, or you just might die, a whole bunch. But one of my favorite experiences in gaming was grinding BAMs in Tera. This game really needs some bigger monsters strolling around!

This pretty much sums some of the problems with the veteran content:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111134/veteran-content-better-solution#latest

Though I gotta say that I absolutely love the difficulty and the need to pay attention in VR content! 1-49 to me felt like some tutorial to combat, when you get to VR thats where the real deal starts. Its however sad as it could've been made so much better.

babylon

Tannakaobi wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Nuuuu...I don't think any one of us here want to see solo only vet level quests...

er.... you what? No quests should be solo only.

Mages Guild and Fighters Guild quests are all solo, that's what I'm referring to. If they're solo-only, then probably Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests will also be solo-only.

And solo-only quests at vet level will suck donkey balls.

It's the Vet levels that suck donkey balls. Lets face it, ESO 1 - 50, great game, it then takes a nose dive and becomes a grind fest not even as good as games that are 15 years old.

I agree, but I think we should definitely fear the prospect of Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood solo-only quests at vet level. At least right now we can group to get through most quests at these horrible vet levels, solo-only quests would be /ragequit material at vet level.

Alphashado

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Well over 50% of the player base is unhappy with VR content for one reason or another. 48% alone find it over tuned. Considering that it's mandatory for progression, this is a big time problem. Regardless of your individual taste, when 50%+ of paying subscribers dislike your product, you have a serious problem.

1-50 was fabulous. VR not so much.

98% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Sadly for all of us, this info falls in the other 2% then wise guy.

48% find VR content over tuned. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99207/how-much-trouble-do-you-have-with-veteran-content/p1

Now add in those that think its boring.
Now add in those that think its a grind.
Now add in those that think its cheap, re-hashed tossed-in content.
Now add in those that think it sucks killing characters from their own faction.
Now add in those that think it sucks not being able to group with a friend or loved one.

Yeah. The % of players unhappy with VR content in its current state is way over 50%. I would even guess it's as high as 75%.

Just take a look at any of your guild rosters. Look at how many inactive accounts there are and then look at how long they have been inactive.

VR content is not just killing this game, it is demolishing it.

For the sake of those of us that want ESO to succeed, I hope they make some changes fast.

Lunerdog

Coldharbour licked again, Molag big Nut whupped and sliced again, I'm pact hero again.

Managed an hour in the Vet zone and then garaged my char along side my Vet 11 and rolled an alt, oh well !

Mortosk

Elyna wrote: »

Not kidding. Vet lvling is arguably the worse part of this game. It basically turned into a Korean MMO with the grinding. And theres no real incentive to lvl anyway, theres no instant gear reward, no faction goodies, all we get are 3 outfits. Which are cool and all, but you need to give people more reason to go on a grind quest.

Said it before, I'll say it again.

They need to triple the XP in Veteran zones. They should also give us XP for exploration as a veteran. Why not?

And, why the heck don't we at least get a skill point when we finally do get a veteran level? I mean, jeez all we get is a crappy Disguise outfit to wear every *5* veteran levels? Whooptie Do!

steveb16_ESO46

ESO is what it wants to be. A 2004 era hard core, single focus combat grinder. If that's not what you or I wanted then i'm afraid it's just too bad for us. Get your fun levelling up to L50 and move on to something with a different ambition is probably the best option.

that's what i'll be doing. Have had a lot of fun in the main story line, got my money's worth but when the 6 month sub runs out i expect that will be it.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

ESO is what it wants to be. A 2004 era hard core, single focus combat grinder. If that's not what you or I wanted then i'm afraid it's just too bad for us. Get your fun levelling up to L50 and move on to something with a different ambition is probably the best option.

that's what i'll be doing. Have had a lot of fun in the main story line, got my money's worth but when the 6 month sub runs out i expect that will be it.

This sums up my view at present, having 2 x 6 month subs, this isn't turning into the game that seemed it was going to be pre-launch .. I'd go as far as saying VR10+ is 1990s group-or-GTFO content, at least in 2004 you could still level in a hardcore group-game like FFXI solo on one job (class).

Kilara

Heishi wrote: »

I got to VR on my main and stopped. I know it's technically the same stuff, but I shifted to other chars in other alliances to experience their stories. Plus it give me time to play with other class/builds.

^^this!

Totally agree - i rolled alts in the other 2 factions, and will go back to my VR main once there is some proper content.

Hopefully they'll add faction changes (happy to pay for this) at some point, so I can have all my chars in the one faction where my friends & guildmates play.

But until then - alting around

steveb16_ESO46

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

ESO is what it wants to be. A 2004 era hard core, single focus combat grinder. If that's not what you or I wanted then i'm afraid it's just too bad for us. Get your fun levelling up to L50 and move on to something with a different ambition is probably the best option.

that's what i'll be doing. Have had a lot of fun in the main story line, got my money's worth but when the 6 month sub runs out i expect that will be it.

This sums up my view at present, having 2 x 6 month subs, this isn't turning into the game that seemed it was going to be pre-launch .. I'd go as far as saying VR10+ is 1990s group-or-GTFO content, at least in 2004 you could still level in a hardcore group-game like FFXI solo on one job (class).

I'm a bit sad about it because even on the big March 28th interview I linked to and quoted elsewhere Fiore absolutely, explicitly said 'play as you want' extended into VR and he specifically referenced build flexibility.

It sounded fine but somewhere along the way that all changed. When I was playing an alt up through one of the faction stories this weekend it suddenly struck me how limited the gameplay was.

I was on a quest line and the only choices I had was what order to do a variety of hub or one off quests that you stumble across. It just got a bit dull.

I'd love this game to have more breadth but that's not how it intends to roll. I used to enjoy the PvP when the game was new and players were more evenly matched. But VR's dominate now and the VR levelled npc's are also out of range. not to mention the technical issues.

I really was hoping ESO would be a broad-spectrum new wave MMO to replace the late lamented LOTRO (not to be confused with LOTRO-Lite).

But community and unhindered grouping are for me essential parts of an MMO. The guild system here doesn't do it for me and even if there was a reason to get together it's very hard. No speech bubbles for RP, the phase technology severely limiting grouping etc. No housing.

But I can't criticise ESO for not being that sort of game. It just isn't and seemingly has no intention of being so.

All I can hope is that the current direction can sustain itself as a sub based game.

NadiusMaximus

Vr content should have been part of the story.
Lvl 1-50 your main zone. Finish that, but not fight Molog yet.
Instead you have to go to another faction and convince them to a cease fire join the alliance to fight molog. Do this by gaining their trust by completing the zone.
The same for the third faction. Then fight molog with the help of the others.
I thought the story was rushed and couldnt believe I had beet the main bad guy so soon with soooooooo much more to do.

isengrimb16_ESO

It would have been better if there were no factions, and you could do all the areas to get to 50/VR, with Bal as the end boss for the vanilla game. As for PvP, just make it a sandbox area with no factions and players beating on each other all they like; PvPers don't seem to care much about story, anyway - they just tend to want to skip it to get to PvPing as quickly as possible.

crislevin

nelsonus_ESO wrote: »

VR's shouldn't increase your characters performance in PVP (gear or otherwise). It really puts off anyone who has a casual play schedule.

For instance, my brother can play maybe 6 hours a week max. In every pvp game we have played, he focuses on leveling when the game releases, and then gears and pvps at max rank. He has found the combat fun but the leveling is very difficult for him due to his casual playtime. He got to 35, but then we learned that VR ranks grant better gear for pvp AND craglorn was increasing the VR ranks. Upon realizing that he would have to spend an unbelievable amount of real life time to get to VR max, and that the VR max would be ever increasing, he quit.

What happens when a member of your pvp group quits a game? It trickles down. Why would I play ESO with half a group, when I can play another game with everyone. I wouldn't.

indeed, they made Craglorn to satisfy a group of power levelers and forgot the game needs more than those players.

Yankee wrote: »

Elyna wrote: »

Not kidding. Vet lvling is arguably the worse part of this game. It basically turned into a Korean MMO with the grinding. And theres no real incentive to lvl anyway, theres no instant gear reward, no faction goodies, all we get are 3 outfits. Which are cool and all, but you need to give people more reason to go on a grind quest.

Ironic to read this. At VR7 I shelved my ESO progression and am playing a Korean MMO. Arguably the grinding is no worse, and at least it rewards XP for other things besides quests, like crafting. And player housing exists, not two+ years (maybe) down the road.

ESO is the best looking world I have seen in awhile, but IMO ZOS did not take the time to fill it with enough interesting things to do. It seems to me like the bean counters set a live date for financial reasons, so they came up with the VR leveling system out of desperation.

agree, a MMO ideally should provide an environment for people to "live", and not everybody's life is fighting.

Ohioastro

So - we'd be better off if we couldn't advance our characters at all past 50? We'd be better off if we couldn't experience more than 1/3 of the stories on one character? If we could do mechanical grinding to "get to the end game"?

If you like the 1-50 pace, repeat the quests on alts and get all three story lines. If you like PvP...do PvP. You're not "forced" to "grind" anything; this is a game. I like the higher challenge level of the vet levels relative to 1-50, but others may not - so, if you like the stories, do alts.

If there is any change that I'd advocate, it's a bigger handicap so that it doesn't matter whether you're VR1 or VR12 in Cyrodil. At all.

Anyone complaining about the vet content who wants their complaints to go anywhere should say what the alternative should be. If it involves drastic changes to the status quo, they should explain to the players who like doing everything on one character why they shouldn't be able to do so any longer.

Ohioastro

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

It would have been better if there were no factions, and you could do all the areas to get to 50/VR, with Bal as the end boss for the vanilla game. As for PvP, just make it a sandbox area with no factions and players beating on each other all they like; PvPers don't seem to care much about story, anyway - they just tend to want to skip it to get to PvPing as quickly as possible.

Organized realm vs. realm PvP is very different from random ganking and arena-style combat.

Pele

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

It's the Vet levels that suck donkey balls. Lets face it, ESO 1 - 50, great game, it then takes a nose dive and becomes a grind fest not even as good as games that are 15 years old.

*snipped for space*

There's no right or wrong. If all you want to do is fight all the time then ESO is for you. If you want more than cursory afterthought land-sea-air travel and exploration, crafting, guilds, housing, commerce etc there are other games.

*snipped for space*

Well said. May I have the names of those other games?

LonePirate

Despair9 wrote: »

This pretty much sums some of the problems with the veteran content:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111134/veteran-content-better-solution#latest

Though I gotta say that I absolutely love the difficulty and the need to pay attention in VR content! 1-49 to me felt like some tutorial to combat, when you get to VR thats where the real deal starts. Its however sad as it could've been made so much better.

Here is what I suggested for a revamp of the VR levels which involves the elimination of visiting other factions, a reorganization of the zones as well as many other changes.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/106935/my-proposal-for-overhauling-veteran-content#latest

If ZOS would have implemented my proposal along with player housing, this game would be close to perfect.

Anlaemar

Gotta remember that the game is coming up on three months old. Pretty sure WoW wasn't perfect and "complete" enough at that age. Have patience.