PermaBlock + Instacast

Vis

More and more players are realizing this broken mechanic. It is hurting class variety as more are forced into builds of attrition, no inductions/channels, and cc becomes unreliable if at all effective.

For instance, with the nerf to bolt escape (and the subsequent broken bugs to the skill) gap closer spams make bolting pointless as it is cheaper to close a gap than it is to open one. This would be less of an issue if you could counter gap closers/openers with a larger variety of effective cc.

I do not belive DKs need more nerfs (personally). For instance, green dragon blood on its own is not too powerful against solid and continuous dps/c. However if you permablock with instacasts, you now have a class that will always burn down any other via gdb attrition. Thus you have call for nerfs to a skill that is only op when in conjunction with a specific mechanic.

The few complaints about templar heals is mitigated once healing comes with the risk of not having a block. Far fewer would have hated sorcs were it not they could bolt away While blocking. NBs would feel less underpowered if their class cannon meant something to a light armor caster (who could no longer block all attacks AND dps back).

I believe many "balance issues" could be directly tied back to "instacast with permablock" to at least some extent.

So my challenge to ZOS and players calling for nerfs, ask yourselves first:

Is there some underlying mechanic that is influencing my opinion of a skill?

If you 'balance" the skills first and then fix the mechanics second, you may find you did more harm than good and be faced with much larger balance issues to come.

Not everyone may agree within everything I said here, but we can perhaps all agree we want more dynamics/variety/skill than permanently holding our right mouse button down.

Anyone else care to expound?

Gorthax

Explain said mechanic. Do you mean cast then quickly block? Cuz I can shoot my light attack with destro staff quick as hell by timing the block with it ^_<

Vis

Gorthax wrote: »

Explain said mechanic. Do you mean cast then quickly block? Cuz I can shoot my light attack with destro staff quick as hell by timing the block with it ^_<

Some require a very fast release, others none. In both instances the time your block is down is a fraction of second and you're enabled block for the vast majority of the fight with only a small decrease to your overall dps.

Edit: some class skills benefit from shorter animations than others

Anrik

Gorthax wrote: »

Explain said mechanic. Do you mean cast then quickly block? Cuz I can shoot my light attack with destro staff quick as hell by timing the block with it ^_<

Blocking while using a skill, not clicking your light/heavy attack.

ForTheRealm

I am not sure if I got your point right, but do you call to nerf blocking mechanism? Actually this is one of the features that is available in the same way to any class and is a fundamental one for tanks.
If a tank would need to lower his guard for more time just to taunt a boss, it would most probably be one-shoted, and I can guarantee you any group content would be dead-hard.

Thechemicals

It costs stamina to recieve damage when blocking and is one of the reasons magicka based builds in pvp arent completely steamrolling Stam based builds.

Vis

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I am not sure if I got your point right, but do you call to nerf blocking mechanism? Actually this is one of the features that is available in the same way to any class and is a fundamental one for tanks.
If a tank would need to lower his guard for more time just to taunt a boss, it would most probably be one-shoted, and I can guarantee you any group content would be dead-hard.

I am not asking for nerf to the blocking mechanism. Only to lower effective dps While blocking. Why can't taunt remain as is and other skills be changed?

Vis

Thechemicals wrote: »

It costs stamina to recieve damage when blocking and is one of the reasons magicka based builds in pvp arent completely steamrolling Stam based builds.

Or is backwards? It's the reason I use only magicka skills that are instacast and use my Stamina as blocking reserve only, thus going all light armor with no desire to use my stamina for anything else (because blocking >> stamina dps).

Teroh

hold block. cast insta cast ability. never lose the benefit of blocking as long as you were holding down block.

ForTheRealm

Vis wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I am not sure if I got your point right, but do you call to nerf blocking mechanism? Actually this is one of the features that is available in the same way to any class and is a fundamental one for tanks.
If a tank would need to lower his guard for more time just to taunt a boss, it would most probably be one-shoted, and I can guarantee you any group content would be dead-hard.

I am not asking for nerf to the blocking mechanism. Only to lower you effective While blocking. Why can't taunt remain as is and other skills be changed?

Standard blocking cost and effectiveness is the same for every class.
Only characters which will invest in stamina-based builds (e.g. 1H+S) can be more effective in blocking. But if somebody invests in stamina-based builds, it means the build does not invest in magicka so much, thus somehow the balance is kept. However, at the moment, the magicka-based builds rule for DPS, and stamina is mainly good for blocking = surviving.

FrauPerchta

Discovered by accident that at least on some Sorcerer skills you can hold block and cast at same time. The block animation falls, the cast animation plays then you go right back into the block animation. No idea if block is active the entire time but have had it work just before and after a cast.

I'm too lazy and impatient to hold block up all time but if it does work it needs to be fixed. ESO seems to have a lot of animation bugs. At least this one doesn't get me killed like the stand around looking like dumb ass while the mobs beat you to death bug.

Vis

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I am not sure if I got your point right, but do you call to nerf blocking mechanism? Actually this is one of the features that is available in the same way to any class and is a fundamental one for tanks.
If a tank would need to lower his guard for more time just to taunt a boss, it would most probably be one-shoted, and I can guarantee you any group content would be dead-hard.

I am not asking for nerf to the blocking mechanism. Only to lower you effective While blocking. Why can't taunt remain as is and other skills be changed?

Standard blocking cost and effectiveness is the same for every class.
Only characters which will invest in stamina-based builds (e.g. 1H+S) can be more effective in blocking. But if somebody invests in stamina-based builds, it means the build does not invest in magicka so much, thus somehow the balance is kept. However, at the moment, the magicka-based builds rule for DPS.

But having longer fights does not have equal benefits to every class. A dot/tank class benefits more from PermaBlock than a burst dps/crit build.

One of the reasons people do Not want to use stamina to dps is because you take that cost from the same resource pool as your defenses (block/dodge/cc break). I and many go all magicka because who wants to run low on defenses because you need to dps? Blocking costs are cheap when compared to its benefits . It is one of the underlying reasons you do not see more stamina builds.

As a disclaimer: my sorc is a nuke ganker with a sword and board. I love feeling godly, but hate to see it hurting variety/class balance.

Vis

FrauPerchta wrote: »

Discovered by accident that at least on some Sorcerer skills you can hold block and cast at same time. The block animation falls, the cast animation plays then you go right back into the block animation. No idea if block is active the entire time but have had it work just before and after a cast.

I'm too lazy and impatient to hold block up all time but if it does work it needs to be fixed. ESO seems to have a lot of animation bugs. At least this one doesn't get me killed like the stand around looking like dumb ass while the mobs beat you to death bug.

It works and your block does not go down. Other classes have skills too. Though some class skills benefit more than others.

ForTheRealm

Vis wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I am not sure if I got your point right, but do you call to nerf blocking mechanism? Actually this is one of the features that is available in the same way to any class and is a fundamental one for tanks.
If a tank would need to lower his guard for more time just to taunt a boss, it would most probably be one-shoted, and I can guarantee you any group content would be dead-hard.

I am not asking for nerf to the blocking mechanism. Only to lower you effective While blocking. Why can't taunt remain as is and other skills be changed?

Standard blocking cost and effectiveness is the same for every class.
Only characters which will invest in stamina-based builds (e.g. 1H+S) can be more effective in blocking. But if somebody invests in stamina-based builds, it means the build does not invest in magicka so much, thus somehow the balance is kept. However, at the moment, the magicka-based builds rule for DPS.

But having longer fights does not have equal benefits to every class. A dot/tank class benefits more from PermaBlock than a burst dps/crit build.

One of the reasons people do Not want to use stamina to dps is because you take that cost from the same resource pool as your defenses (block/dodge/cc break). I and many go all magicka because who wants to run low on defenses because you need to dps? Blocking costs are cheap when compared to its benefits . It is one of the underlying reasons you do not see more stamina builds.

As a disclaimer: my sorc is a nuke ganker with a sword and board. I love feeling godly, but hate to see it hurting variety/class balance.

OK. Now I understand where are you heading at.
Though, any changes in that area should be made really carefully, or it will lead to even harder times for any stamina-based tank builds.

Vis

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

I am not sure if I got your point right, but do you call to nerf blocking mechanism? Actually this is one of the features that is available in the same way to any class and is a fundamental one for tanks.
If a tank would need to lower his guard for more time just to taunt a boss, it would most probably be one-shoted, and I can guarantee you any group content would be dead-hard.

I am not asking for nerf to the blocking mechanism. Only to lower you effective While blocking. Why can't taunt remain as is and other skills be changed?

Standard blocking cost and effectiveness is the same for every class.
Only characters which will invest in stamina-based builds (e.g. 1H+S) can be more effective in blocking. But if somebody invests in stamina-based builds, it means the build does not invest in magicka so much, thus somehow the balance is kept. However, at the moment, the magicka-based builds rule for DPS.

But having longer fights does not have equal benefits to every class. A dot/tank class benefits more from PermaBlock than a burst dps/crit build.

One of the reasons people do Not want to use stamina to dps is because you take that cost from the same resource pool as your defenses (block/dodge/cc break). I and many go all magicka because who wants to run low on defenses because you need to dps? Blocking costs are cheap when compared to its benefits . It is one of the underlying reasons you do not see more stamina builds.

As a disclaimer: my sorc is a nuke ganker with a sword and board. I love feeling godly, but hate to see it hurting variety/class balance.

OK. Now I understand where are you heading at.
Though, any changes in that area should be made really carefully, or it will lead to even harder times for any stamina-based tank builds.

Agreed, it's a tough fix that will need creative solutions (not as simple as nerf nerf nerf).

Xnemesis

Just make it tick down stamina similar to sneaking and reduce the amount of stamina you lose when you actually block an attack problem is fixed.

Syndy

All this could be fixed by just making block only effect dmg from the front.

360 block is just mind blowing to me. I mean MMOs WAY before ESO even had enough sense to know that in pvp defensive stats such as block and parry have no baring on attacks from the back.

So, just make block work on frontal attacks, it would make positioning mean so much more in this game.

ForTheRealm

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

All this could be fixed by just making block only effect dmg from the front.

360 block is just mind blowing to me. I mean MMOs WAY before ESO even had enough sense to know that in pvp defensive stats such as block and parry have no baring on attacks from the back.

So, just make block work on frontal attacks, it would make positioning mean so much more in this game.

If stamina-based block would be directional then all magicka-based block alternatives (shields, armours) should be directional as well - to keep balance. Otherwise, again magicka will rule even in that department.

Erock25

Xnemesis wrote: »

Just make it tick down stamina similar to sneaking and reduce the amount of stamina you lose when you actually block an attack problem is fixed.

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

All this could be fixed by just making block only effect dmg from the front.

360 block is just mind blowing to me. I mean MMOs WAY before ESO even had enough sense to know that in pvp defensive stats such as block and parry have no baring on attacks from the back.

So, just make block work on frontal attacks, it would make positioning mean so much more in this game.

A combination of both of these ideas is the right solution, IMO.

Syndy

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

All this could be fixed by just making block only effect dmg from the front.

360 block is just mind blowing to me. I mean MMOs WAY before ESO even had enough sense to know that in pvp defensive stats such as block and parry have no baring on attacks from the back.

So, just make block work on frontal attacks, it would make positioning mean so much more in this game.

If stamina-based block would be directional then all magicka-based block alternatives (shields, armours) should be directional as well - to keep balance. Otherwise, again magicka will rule even in that department.

What do you mean by this?

Abilities like Annulment, and Sun Shield?

Or abilities like Eclipse, and Reflective Scales?

Thechemicals

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

All this could be fixed by just making block only effect dmg from the front.

360 block is just mind blowing to me. I mean MMOs WAY before ESO even had enough sense to know that in pvp defensive stats such as block and parry have no baring on attacks from the back.

So, just make block work on frontal attacks, it would make positioning mean so much more in this game.

No it would make death easier since everything is zerg attacking you in this game. So overcharged armor and tailoring your block mitigation and costs for endgame is compromised by the 8 pull dungeon mobs where 1 or more trash mobs happened to get you from behind and then commence to do damage to you as if you were made of paper. Epic tanking does require positioning but you cant position successfully for most vr content or trials, you would get one shotted all the time without block mitigation. Not to mention how many gankers in pvp already have skills to reduce your armor and mitigation, now they have even more damage penetration with this direction blocking idea of yours.

A more thought out idea is to increase the stamina cost of blocking from rear and only rear attacks.

Hypertionb14_ESO

This mechanic is also part of what makes Stamina builds that use stam to deal the damage pointless, A magicka attack build you can usually block while damage dealing.

Again, Stamina needs a MASSIVE damage increase

JosephChip

Well, to be honest if you instacast while permanently blocking you run out of stamina pretty quickly, even with a shield. At that point you can be cc'ed easily and you are done.

Vis

JosephChip wrote: »

Well, to be honest if you instacast while permanently blocking you run out of stamina pretty quickly, even with a shield. At that point you can be cc'ed easily and you are done.

Not necessarily. I can dish out a lot of pain in the time it takes to drain my stamina with block. In fact, blocking is really cheap cost-wise, especially when you consider it relative to the resources expended by your attacker.

Vis

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Again, Stamina needs a MASSIVE damage increase

I don't know if I would do that. However, I would be all supportive of finding ways to diversify the roles of each resource pool (including health).

Xnemesis

I have a few ideas that would help balance block

first, is have a debuff over time, call it fatigue, that reduces the amount mitigated by 10% every two seconds with a cap at 45%. So say you have 75% mitigation when blocking, after 2 seconds it would become 65% then 2 more seconds 55% and then 45% at 6 seconds of blocking. This would prevent players from holding block while attacking and making it function as a reactionary tool like it should. Note, this debuff would last for 2 seconds after block is released.

Second, block should function with a 270 degree front sector. Anything in the 90 degree sector behind you would still have a certain percent mitigated but not the full amount, as if you were hit from the front 270 degree sector. Also any CC applied from the rear 90 degree sector would not be blocked. Not sure on what a fair percentage of mitigation would be for attacks from the rear while blocking, but I am sure if put on the test server the community could come up with something. Maybe even offer a heavy armor perk that increases that rear 90 Degree mitigation.

Third, make blocking while moving cost stamina cause well shields ain't light. It would function similar to sneaking, but at a reduced rate. Also reduce the cost of stamina exerted after a successful block to counter the ticking down of stamina while blocking and moving.

Forth, offer a small mitigation buff after a successful block that way tanks will have the ability to weave in light and heavy attacks it could even be a 2 second or 3 second buff. This buff would cancel when the shield is raised again as to prevent stacking the buff on top of regular shield mitigation.

I would also like to add that a magical shield should not abide by the front 270 degree and rear 90 degree sector rules due to the fact they are just a buff and cannot be sustained throughout the whole fight.

Any other ideas are welcome as well as feedback. The more we can agree on a solution the better chance of getting it fixed. Block isn't broken it just needs to be made situational while offering risk and reward.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Vis wrote: »

More and more players are realizing this broken mechanic. It is hurting class variety as more are forced into builds of attrition, no inductions/channels, and cc becomes unreliable if at all effective.

For instance, with the nerf to bolt escape (and the subsequent broken bugs to the skill) gap closer spams make bolting pointless as it is cheaper to close a gap than it is to open one. This would be less of an issue if you could counter gap closers/openers with a larger variety of effective cc.

I do not belive DKs need more nerfs (personally). For instance, green dragon blood on its own is not too powerful against solid and continuous dps/c. However if you permablock with instacasts, you now have a class that will always burn down any other via gdb attrition. Thus you have call for nerfs to a skill that is only op when in conjunction with a specific mechanic.

The few complaints about templar heals is mitigated once healing comes with the risk of not having a block. Far fewer would have hated sorcs were it not they could bolt away While blocking. NBs would feel less underpowered if their class cannon meant something to a light armor caster (who could no longer block all attacks AND dps back).

I believe many "balance issues" could be directly tied back to "instacast with permablock" to at least some extent.

So my challenge to ZOS and players calling for nerfs, ask yourselves first:

Is there some underlying mechanic that is influencing my opinion of a skill?

If you 'balance" the skills first and then fix the mechanics second, you may find you did more harm than good and be faced with much larger balance issues to come.

Not everyone may agree within everything I said here, but we can perhaps all agree we want more dynamics/variety/skill than permanently holding our right mouse button down.

Anyone else care to expound?

I agree whole heartedly. Also why is block a 360 degree defense? If you are continuously holding block you should be vulnerable to attacks from behind. This is something they need to look into as well. Not to mention sorc has no use for stamina save to block and immovable(or gain back health and magicka essentially an extension of their magicka bar).

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Xnemesis wrote: »

I have a few ideas that would help balance block

first, is have a debuff over time, call it fatigue, that reduces the amount mitigated by 10% every two seconds with a cap at 45%. So say you have 75% mitigation when blocking, after 2 seconds it would become 65% then 2 more seconds 55% and then 45% at 6 seconds of blocking. This would prevent players from holding block while attacking and making it function as a reactionary tool like it should. Note, this debuff would last for 2 seconds after block is released.

Second, block should function with a 270 degree front sector. Anything in the 90 degree sector behind you would still have a certain percent mitigated but not the full amount, as if you were hit from the front 270 degree sector. Also any CC applied from the rear 90 degree sector would not be blocked. Not sure on what a fair percentage of mitigation would be for attacks from the rear while blocking, but I am sure if put on the test server the community could come up with something. Maybe even offer a heavy armor perk that increases that rear 90 Degree mitigation.

Third, make blocking while moving cost stamina cause well shields ain't light. It would function similar to sneaking, but at a reduced rate. Also reduce the cost of stamina exerted after a successful block to counter the ticking down of stamina while blocking and moving.

Forth, offer a small mitigation buff after a successful block that way tanks will have the ability to weave in light and heavy attacks it could even be a 2 second or 3 second buff. This buff would cancel when the shield is raised again as to prevent stacking the buff on top of regular shield mitigation.

I would also like to add that a magical shield should not abide by the front 270 degree and rear 90 degree sector rules due to the fact they are just a buff and cannot be sustained throughout the whole fight.

Any other ideas are welcome as well as feedback. The more we can agree on a solution the better chance of getting it fixed. Block isn't broken it just needs to be made situational while offering risk and reward.

I think anything anything over 180 degrees for a block cone would be more than necessary. I don't know of any shield that wraps 270 degrees. I don't see a reason to make it less than sneaking either cause holding a shield while moving would require more effort than crouch walking.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Vis wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Again, Stamina needs a MASSIVE damage increase

I don't know if I would do that. However, I would be all supportive of finding ways to diversify the roles of each resource pool (including health).

This is exactly the issue they OP is talking about. If you could not spam block stamina based weapons would be way more effective. Stamina weapons don't need a buff blocking needs to be fixed to a realm of normal.

Xnemesis

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

I have a few ideas that would help balance block

first, is have a debuff over time, call it fatigue, that reduces the amount mitigated by 10% every two seconds with a cap at 45%. So say you have 75% mitigation when blocking, after 2 seconds it would become 65% then 2 more seconds 55% and then 45% at 6 seconds of blocking. This would prevent players from holding block while attacking and making it function as a reactionary tool like it should. Note, this debuff would last for 2 seconds after block is released.

Second, block should function with a 270 degree front sector. Anything in the 90 degree sector behind you would still have a certain percent mitigated but not the full amount, as if you were hit from the front 270 degree sector. Also any CC applied from the rear 90 degree sector would not be blocked. Not sure on what a fair percentage of mitigation would be for attacks from the rear while blocking, but I am sure if put on the test server the community could come up with something. Maybe even offer a heavy armor perk that increases that rear 90 Degree mitigation.

Third, make blocking while moving cost stamina cause well shields ain't light. It would function similar to sneaking, but at a reduced rate. Also reduce the cost of stamina exerted after a successful block to counter the ticking down of stamina while blocking and moving.

Forth, offer a small mitigation buff after a successful block that way tanks will have the ability to weave in light and heavy attacks it could even be a 2 second or 3 second buff. This buff would cancel when the shield is raised again as to prevent stacking the buff on top of regular shield mitigation.

I would also like to add that a magical shield should not abide by the front 270 degree and rear 90 degree sector rules due to the fact they are just a buff and cannot be sustained throughout the whole fight.

Any other ideas are welcome as well as feedback. The more we can agree on a solution the better chance of getting it fixed. Block isn't broken it just needs to be made situational while offering risk and reward.

I think anything anything over 180 degrees for a block cone would be more than necessary. I don't know of any shield that wraps 270 degrees. I don't see a reason to make it less than sneaking either cause holding a shield while moving would require more effort than crouch walking.

The reason behind the reduction is I see a reduction coming for rolling and sneaking coming in a future patch. We need to still make stamina build valid for players to use. We already have a huge issue with cloth and staves being the main go to because of the hit stamina takes so I didn't want to compound the issues. Pretty vallid though and I say 270 degrees because a player can move their shield a little left and right for incoming attacks. Players should have to work for that stun or increase in damage against a blocking opponent. Makes positioning very important

Luvsfuzzybunnies

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

All this could be fixed by just making block only effect dmg from the front.

360 block is just mind blowing to me. I mean MMOs WAY before ESO even had enough sense to know that in pvp defensive stats such as block and parry have no baring on attacks from the back.

So, just make block work on frontal attacks, it would make positioning mean so much more in this game.

If stamina-based block would be directional then all magicka-based block alternatives (shields, armours) should be directional as well - to keep balance. Otherwise, again magicka will rule even in that department.

Magicka shield based abilities are a bubble that would reflect or negate the magic wherever it came from where you are physically holding the shield and if your arms aren't rotating around you pretty quickly you will be hit where the shield is not. I would disagree with your stance. And the armors essentially add to the armor mitigations you currently have. They are not asking for your armor value calculation to be negated if hit from the rear just the amount your shield adds since the weapon attack wouldn't hit the shield.