Should craglorn have been VR 10 + only?

Eiregirl

Since this last patch that came out introducing trials most of the vet ranked zones seem empty and under populated. There are a few dolmen, world boss and dungeon groups once in a while but nothing like before...the zones just seem almost dead. Has everyone run off to craglorn or have they just all of a sudden stopped playing?

Earlier today in zone chat two people were talking (yes there were only 2 people talking) and they were talking about this very subject and how either craglorn being available so early for VR1 + players that it made getting groups in zones to do things almost impossible.

From my own experience I would have to agree with them because before craglorn if you mentioned a world boss or a dolmen being available within two minutes there would be 6 to 10 people there ready to pounce but now you can spam zone chat for 10 minutes and be lucky to get 1 or 2 people.

The end result of their discussion was that making craglorn available to VR1 and up was a mistake and it should have been VR10 + only.

In some regards I agree with them but only because it would make doing dolmens and world bosses quicker and easier and their would be more dungeon groups forming in zone chat but other than that the questing is just as good as it was before.

What do all of you think?

Should craglorn have been made VR10 + only?

Zershar_Vemod

Imo I think they went the safe route with allowing other VRs to get access to Craglorn; personally I'm only VR3 and I doubt I'll head over there other than for some skyshards and voidstone mining. I take my time and never rush a game.

If they made it VR10+ only, with no access, etc. I think we'd see a lot of complaining and silly excuses to rant on the forums.

Rosveen

No. People complained about endless quest grind in veteran zones - I don't think they'd want to be forced to reach the max level just to access new content. It would screw everyone who isn't a fast leveler. Personally I see Craglorn as a nice alternative way of gaining veteran ranks.

It's natural that people left other zones to check out the new, shiny one. I imagine some of them will return when they're done with Craglorn. Then there's the incoming wave of players who haven't reached VR yet - that's a lot of people, I'm currently playing in the final alliance zones and they're quite busy. I guess for now try to group with friends or guildmates?

Melian

No. The game is plenty linear enough as it is.

Rev Rielle

No, in my opinion Craglorn should have been for players VR1 to VR10, with no 'cap' increase. Giving them an alternative to questing through the other factions' areas.

Eiregirl

Rosveen wrote: »

No. People complained about endless quest grind in veteran zones - I don't think they'd want to be forced to reach the max level just to access new content. It would screw everyone who isn't a fast leveler. Personally I see Craglorn as a nice alternative way of gaining veteran ranks.

Endless quest grind? I guess the people complaining about that are the ones who don't understand that 90% or more of the content in any MMO is questing or quest related. I always laugh when I see people say that.
With craglorn the max level was increased to 12 so craglorn could have been a level 10 to 12 area or even a level 8 or 9 to 12 area.

I am not complaining about it because I am more of a quester than anything so this really does not affect me at all. I just thought the discussion in zone chat was interesting and would make for an interesting discussion.

Mablung

Yes. It has killed the other content which in turn is killing this game. It went from forcing you to play one style to another.

mips_winnt

Eiregirl wrote: »

Should craglorn have been made VR10 + only?

IMHO It should have been a VR10-12 zone with solo-able quests & story line (just like all the other zones) and raid instance(s)/group dungeon(s)/world bosses so that people aren't forced to find groups to progress beyond VR10.

Rosveen

Eiregirl wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

No. People complained about endless quest grind in veteran zones - I don't think they'd want to be forced to reach the max level just to access new content. It would screw everyone who isn't a fast leveler. Personally I see Craglorn as a nice alternative way of gaining veteran ranks.

Endless quest grind? I guess the people complaining about that are the ones who don't understand that 90% or more of the content in any MMO is questing or quest related. I always laugh when I see people say that.

I don't. There should always be alternatives: PvP, dungeons, whatever. I don't know if they're viable now after the patches because as I said, I'm not in VR yet. But regardless of available levelling methods, you still need to pour a lot of time into getting to VR10. It's effectively another 100 normal levels. The majority of players haven't reached it yet; would you really want to completely lock them out of the new zone? What about the next content update, another zone inaccessible until you're at or near the ever-increasing level cap? IMO the more open this game is, the better. I'm not entirely happy with Craglorn being group only after a whole game of soloing, but this is another matter.

Snowstrider

Wait what? You can play craglorn even if you are not vr10+ ? thats cool,May give it a try.

wrlifeboil

Eiregirl wrote: »

Since this last patch that came out introducing trials most of the vet ranked zones seem empty and under populated. There are a few dolmen, world boss and dungeon groups once in a while but nothing like before...the zones just seem almost dead. Has everyone run off to craglorn or have they just all of a sudden stopped playing?

Earlier today in zone chat two people were talking (yes there were only 2 people talking) and they were talking about this very subject and how either craglorn being available so early for VR1 + players that it made getting groups in zones to do things almost impossible.

From my own experience I would have to agree with them because before craglorn if you mentioned a world boss or a dolmen being available within two minutes there would be 6 to 10 people there ready to pounce but now you can spam zone chat for 10 minutes and be lucky to get 1 or 2 people.

The end result of their discussion was that making craglorn available to VR1 and up was a mistake and it should have been VR10 + only.

In some regards I agree with them but only because it would make doing dolmens and world bosses quicker and easier and their would be more dungeon groups forming in zone chat but other than that the questing is just as good as it was before.

What do all of you think?

Should craglorn have been made VR10 + only?

I would have agreed pre-launch that only VR10 characters should be allowed in Craglorn.

But seeing how the game has progressed over the past two months, Craglorn should be open to all VR. This is necessary or I think sub numbers will drop even more as the level 40s get into VR zones.

The scaling of damage and healing done by characters as they progress past 49 is not aligned well with the scaling of the damage done by mobs in the VR zones, at least for solo players. Somebody's math was off or their read of the current generation of gamer missed the mark. They'll have to nerf the VR zone mobs sooner or later. Don't know if ZOS thought they could create a new generation of mmo gamers by forcing players to group if they made it nearly impossible for the average solo player. They are probably finding out that they can't force too many to do things they don't want to do in an mmo. Unhappy mmo gamers just unsub. There are too many other alternatives around.

dennissomb16_ESO

It was a no win choice for them. Personally I would have liked to see it restricted to VR10+

Snowstrider

But isnt everything in craglorn designed for vr10+ characters? is it scaled? Will i have much trouble as a vr4 to go in craglorn?

Fissh

I do believe that Craglorn should have been v10+. This rush to end-game is whats game killing to me. Accommodating the "got to have it now" generation is doom. With the V1 option to Craglorn, other content gets neglected. For instance, your point about VR areas population drops. It makes perfect since for the next content patch, i.e. Craglorn, to be level progressive. Sure, I hear that people want "options", and there are options, PvP or dungeoning, the same options almost all mmos give. Craglorn as ANOTHER option is just a simple accommodation to the whiney bunch.
As for the "grind" in VR....so what? It's ES guys. It's story driven, and well written story to boot. Enjoying a game for what it is seems to be a lost art. And for the difficulty of VR....I do fine. Yes, it is a bit hard, but again....so what? I only need a group for public dungeons, anchors, and world bosses. Things that were intended to need a group for. As for solo questing, yeah, I get my 'arse' handed to me, but I learn the fight and keep at it till I conquer it. Hmmm, suppose this would make for a good raiding community at end-game? Hmmm, suppose this would refine your mmo skills beyond keyboard face rolling? Hmmm, suppose nothing is worth getting that is easy? My point is...2 months people, and your screaming for "options" and "easy". Wtf? Calling it a grind...2 months in...wtf? God forbid you actually have to play a game for a bit to get to the 'end'.....
It seems people just want to log in at launch, go straight to pvp or raiding, and bypass the entire point/story of the game.
I leave you with this:

Baby Bull: "Hey dad, lets RUN down the hill and sex A cow"
Dad Bull: "Son, lets WALK down the hill and sex them ALL"
Patience is a virtue and comes with more reward.....

Darrett

No. It's important to have content that feel more epic; when my wife hit VR1 she immediately wanted to stop playing because she felt like she had spent all this time working up to hitting 50, then getting to go fight Skeevers and Mudcrabs scaled to her level in someone else's backyard. Craglorn gave her something to do that wasn't just more of the same recycled content.

People don't want to have to solve some other annoying people's problems at VR1+. Give them options to break up the monotony.

Saet

Craglorn is killing any semblance of value to items in this game IMO. You can easily go run back and forth between two bosses right next to one another and open chests all day long and have a steady stream of blues and purples. You dont even have to fight really. Just show up in time. People want to hit max level as fast as they can and Craglorn is the fastest exp by far. Its why vet zones are empty. They need to kill the boss farming issues in Craglorn. The game doesnt need to be so damned easy. Its already got more hand holding than any other mmo I've played. You dont have to actually search for a single thing. Nice little arrows point directly to everything you need. The hardest part of this game is navigating the guild stores.

harnessedyeti9

Rev Rielle wrote: »

No, in my opinion Craglorn should have been for players VR1 to VR10, with no 'cap' increase. Giving them an alternative to questing through the other factions' areas.

This. I have been trying to get people to wake up to this fact since Craglorn was announced as VR 10.

Eiregirl

Fissh wrote: »

I do believe that Craglorn should have been v10+. This rush to end-game is whats game killing to me. Accommodating the "got to have it now" generation is doom. With the V1 option to Craglorn, other content gets neglected. For instance, your point about VR areas population drops. It makes perfect since for the next content patch, i.e. Craglorn, to be level progressive. Sure, I hear that people want "options", and there are options, PvP or dungeoning, the same options almost all mmos give. Craglorn as ANOTHER option is just a simple accommodation to the whiney bunch.
As for the "grind" in VR....so what? It's ES guys. It's story driven, and well written story to boot. Enjoying a game for what it is seems to be a lost art. And for the difficulty of VR....I do fine. Yes, it is a bit hard, but again....so what? I only need a group for public dungeons, anchors, and world bosses. Things that were intended to need a group for. As for solo questing, yeah, I get my 'arse' handed to me, but I learn the fight and keep at it till I conquer it. Hmmm, suppose this would make for a good raiding community at end-game? Hmmm, suppose this would refine your mmo skills beyond keyboard face rolling? Hmmm, suppose nothing is worth getting that is easy? My point is...2 months people, and your screaming for "options" and "easy". Wtf? Calling it a grind...2 months in...wtf? God forbid you actually have to play a game for a bit to get to the 'end'.....
It seems people just want to log in at launch, go straight to pvp or raiding, and bypass the entire point/story of the game.
I leave you with this:

Baby Bull: "Hey dad, lets RUN down the hill and sex A cow"
Dad Bull: "Son, lets WALK down the hill and sex them ALL"
Patience is a virtue and comes with more reward.....

Fissh...I cannot disagree with anything you said and you kind of sum it up pretty good.

Well I might could disagree with one thing because I like what Rev Rielle and harnessedyeti9 said about not adding the extra 2 vet levels

Crisscross

Eiregirl wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

No. People complained about endless quest grind in veteran zones - I don't think they'd want to be forced to reach the max level just to access new content. It would screw everyone who isn't a fast leveler. Personally I see Craglorn as a nice alternative way of gaining veteran ranks.

Endless quest grind? I guess the people complaining about that are the ones who don't understand that 90% or more of the content in any MMO is questing or quest related. I always laugh when I see people say that.

And some of us hate that. Personally in other MMOs I always split my time almost evenly between questing, pvp, and dungeons while I level. The only reason I could bear doing nothing but quests here was because they're just so well written and designed, but seriously enough is enough. I already know what happens in the other factions' quests because I have alts, so veteran content is just a pure, needless grind.

Fissh wrote: »

Patience is a virtue and comes with more reward.....

I don't think PVP or raiding miraculously gets better just because you took 3 months grinding to that point instead of 3 days.

Asawasa

this would have made a good poll imo.

my vote is no because leveling through the vet areas is such a pain compared to Craglorn anomaly or burials grinding. i'm usually not a fan of grinding but the good thing this does is let the less MMO experienced folks get a taste for how things were back about 10+ years ago when you had to group up and grind monsters to level. even better you get lots of loot as well.

KerinKor

Rev Rielle wrote: »

No, in my opinion Craglorn should have been for players VR1 to VR10, with no 'cap' increase. Giving them an alternative to questing through the other factions' areas.

Agreed, the game didn't need 2 more VR levels at this time .. and it shouldn't be 'group up to be able to play in it' either, forced-grouping should have been confined to instances.

Pewpie

Saet wrote: »

Craglorn is killing any semblance of value to items in this game IMO. You can easily go run back and forth between two bosses right next to one another and open chests all day long and have a steady stream of blues and purples. You dont even have to fight really. Just show up in time. People want to hit max level as fast as they can and Craglorn is the fastest exp by far. Its why vet zones are empty. They need to kill the boss farming issues in Craglorn. The game doesnt need to be so damned easy. Its already got more hand holding than any other mmo I've played. You dont have to actually search for a single thing. Nice little arrows point directly to everything you need. The hardest part of this game is navigating the guild stores.

Farming the anomalies in craglorn is sick. Just stand around 1 single spawn and kill the same mob over and over for a chest. You get your bag filled up with purple items and 1 vet level in like 1-2 hours... And with the tedious vet leveling in the alliance zones... i too farm anomalies to get some nice gear and free exp.

AngryNord

Craglorn should've been the Daggerfall Covenant's Veteran content, scaled from VR1 upwards, With a mix of solo and Group stuff. Then they could've released similar zones for the other two alliances as well.

Kypho

i hate lvl restrictions. all should have access everywhere exept dungeons.

Kypho

Pewpie wrote: »

Saet wrote: »

Craglorn is killing any semblance of value to items in this game IMO. You can easily go run back and forth between two bosses right next to one another and open chests all day long and have a steady stream of blues and purples. You dont even have to fight really. Just show up in time. People want to hit max level as fast as they can and Craglorn is the fastest exp by far. Its why vet zones are empty. They need to kill the boss farming issues in Craglorn. The game doesnt need to be so damned easy. Its already got more hand holding than any other mmo I've played. You dont have to actually search for a single thing. Nice little arrows point directly to everything you need. The hardest part of this game is navigating the guild stores.

Farming the anomalies in craglorn is sick. Just stand around 1 single spawn and kill the same mob over and over for a chest. You get your bag filled up with purple items and 1 vet level in like 1-2 hours... And with the tedious vet leveling in the alliance zones... i too farm anomalies to get some nice gear and free exp.

Farming purple items sux. It hurts the economy and make items worthless. Not like those purples worth any money for me.... but still...

Rosveen

Fissh wrote: »

As for the "grind" in VR....so what? It's ES guys. It's story driven, and well written story to boot. Enjoying a game for what it is seems to be a lost art.

If you want to use "it's ES" argument, you should remember what other ES games are actually like. They never required quests to level up. Quite the opposite, they don't give any exp for completing quests. I know a person who could play for hundreds of hours without doing a single quest.

For many of us TES games have never been about the story told by the devs, but rather about creating our own. Don't get me wrong, I love ESO's quests. I'm having a lot of fun playing it, I never expected it to be exactly like the single player games. But saying that TES is about quests and pre-made stories is nonsense.

Maotti

Personally, i prefer to just walk around in the normal zones now instead of being in Craglorn.

If i have to hear "The shadows take you!" one more time, :P

vyndral13preub18_ESO

The game needs more options not less. It will take me a while to get them done, most of the game content should work for it. Be it Craglorn, faction questing, or pvp. All should be valid ways for people to get through the vr levels.

Although i didnt experience the problem of no people around. But being vr1 it may be that we just havent got tired of questing yet so there are still bunches of people for bosses and what not. Any time i asked for help i shortly had 5-10 players there to help.

kitsinni

Eiregirl wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

No. People complained about endless quest grind in veteran zones - I don't think they'd want to be forced to reach the max level just to access new content. It would screw everyone who isn't a fast leveler. Personally I see Craglorn as a nice alternative way of gaining veteran ranks.

Endless quest grind? I guess the people complaining about that are the ones who don't understand that 90% or more of the content in any MMO is questing or quest related. I always laugh when I see people say that.
With craglorn the max level was increased to 12 so craglorn could have been a level 10 to 12 area or even a level 8 or 9 to 12 area.

I am not complaining about it because I am more of a quester than anything so this really does not affect me at all. I just thought the discussion in zone chat was interesting and would make for an interesting discussion.

I have been playing MMO's since 2001 and I have probably done more quests in this game than all of the others combined. I don't hate questing but that is by far the majority of what this game has to offer. It would be very nice to have some options other than questing. I was one of the ones who took time and tired to clear out every quest in every zone while I was leveling then when I hit VR content it was like a punch in the face. If I wanted to do every quest in every realm it would have been far more fun just to level an alt in those realms. I think the current sytem destroys the lore of the game. I am AD and doing VR quests that try to stop the AD??? Why would I help my enemy try to stop me?

Sallakat

The huge amounts of exp gained in craglorn when below vr10 is quite tempting and we did make a run for it with some guildies (3 x vr8 + 1 x vr4) and we managed to do one dungeon quite nicely. The bosses/mobs were vr10-11 I think. It was about 47k vr exp per boss in there. But the second dungeon we hit the wall and decided to come back later on, probably lacking dps. But was fun to see at least a bit.
+ Personally it doesn't bother me that lower vet levels can get in there.

ShADoW0s

I dont get why its such an issue, if people want to grind let them, if they want to quest let them. Let people decide what they want to do with the game and their time, dont force them to do one thing.