Stop Raising the Level Cap

Gimick

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

Except for the fact that when you step into PvP you are, currently, raised to vet level 5. So, as intended, you can PvP at level 10, when Cyridil opens up to you.

They've stated that they will continue to raise the PvP level as the level cap increases.

darthbelanb14_ESO

Maverick827 wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

Please do not listen to OP. This is his first MMORPG

What other AAA MMORPG increases the level cap every few months?

Again, level cap is 50, these are bonus ranks as part of the 50+ and 50++ part of the game. There has been no level cap raise.

Sakiri

DeLindsay wrote: »

They haven't increased the level cap at all, it's still 50. For those of you who STILL don't get it, Veteran Ranks are the same as tiered gear progression from other MMO's. The difference in ESO is the devs made it less of a gear "grind" like other MMO's.

For example, in most MMO's you hit level cap and craft half of your epic gear (welfare epics) then spend a few days grinding the highest level dungeon for the last few drops you need to access the Expert dungeons. You then grind expert dungeons for days to weeks until you finally have enough gear to progress to T1 - 10man Raids, where you spend SEVERAL weeks grinding gear to progress to the next higher tier of Raids, etc for MONTHS.

ESO has that same concept but in a single Veteran Rank, each time you rank up you get access to better gear to help you progress to the next better gear, etc. There is no need to "grind" anything since it's absurdly easy to blow through Veteran Ranks to current cap.

Grinding out gear in the next tier shouldnt involve grinding out levels to do it.

You know what happens in other games when a new tier came kut? MY GUILD RAN THE RAID. We looted the boss and gear was equippable immediately. None of this "go level twice to wear it lol" crap.

Phantorang

Thalmar wrote: »

They simply shouldn't arrange the pace of the content, Veteran Rank extension with the pace of exploiters or end-game rushers. The biggest amount of players will feel that they will never catch up with the content release speed and this will turn out most of the players, but hey isn't the MMOs biggest aim to satisfy the unsatisfied end-game consumers.

Facing a VR12 with your level 38 was not a fun experience. I stopped playing a couple of days ago because i know i will never be competitive in PvP again, there will always be stronger higher VR players as they increase level cap every month or so, maybe humor it is i heard they are planning to increase level cap to VR15 very soon.

I somewhat agree with this, cuz I too think its more important to take care of the content for the vast majority of the players. Problem for ZOS is that the vr12s also are the most vocal ones, raging and screaming cuz they got nothing left to do. Alot wouldnt even appreciate horizontal game content, its secondary to their need to be on top of everyone else.

I wish ZOS could do it different than other MMOs.

Still I like higher levels cap, like its never going to end. In for example Anarchy Online where it was 220 levels and tons of character customization.

Phaedryn

Gimick wrote: »

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

Except for the fact that when you step into PvP you are, currently, raised to vet level 5. So, as intended, you can PvP at level 10, when Cyridil opens up to you.

They've stated that they will continue to raise the PvP level as the level cap increases.

Yes, because a level 10, bumped to VR5 for PvP purposes, is competitive with an actually VR5...

RvR based PvP games should *not* have level cap increases. There is a very good reason why DAoC never raised the level cap above 50. All these game trying to emulate DAoC, but playing the "jack of all trades" MMO game are failing because the development studios making them are trying to piecemeal together aspects of RvR without fully understanding the ramifications. Steadily raising the level cap, especially this early/often, will kill PvP long term (although, at the rate they are going the boneheaded short term changes might actually kill it long before changes to the level cap do).

Thalmar

Gimick wrote: »

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

Except for the fact that when you step into PvP you are, currently, raised to vet level 5. So, as intended, you can PvP at level 10, when Cyridil opens up to you.

They've stated that they will continue to raise the PvP level as the level cap increases.

And you honestly believe a level 10 with 2-3 skills to use with 3 passives will be competitive against full geared VR12 with nearly 300 skill points and filled up all passive skills? I don't mention that they should be equal at all, don't missinterpret my comment but i believe there is no way they give a fair game as the level cap raised. Even some people wil disagree adding 1 or 2 dedicated level 1-49 campaigns will be filled with players who enjoys slow paced leveling or leveling in PvP. I still think the reason most of the campaigns are low on all times now is the unfair play and VR10s now 12s ruling Cyrodiil.

NerfEverything

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

They will do something to offset that. 50% exp bonus for console players, or let them start out at level 50. It is fairly common practice in these situations.

NordJitsu

@Jeremy‌

The point isn't that leveling should be taken out of RPGs, which your posts seem to argue against. It also isn't that the level cap should never be raised.

I simply wanted to convey that the level cap was raised too quickly for my tastes, if this is indicative of a trend. Again, I'm not upset with it this time. I just don't want to see it continue.

Raising the level cap is vertical progression, which is easy and lazy for the devs. All you do is keep everything in the game exactly as is but increase the numbers.

Horizontal progression actually gives us more to do. Adding skill lines, adding new forms of game play (dueling, Arenas, horse racing, spell crafting) take more effort from the devs but they're also a lot more enjoyable to consume.

That's not to say I don't enjoy leveling in the first place so you can keep your "go to another genre" comments. And its not to say that over the life cycle of the game you shouldn't have both vertical and linear progression.

The question here is about degrees. Turning it into a false dichotomy does nothing but simplify the issue and stifle discussion.

DeLindsay

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

Except Consoles will NEVER play against PC users, we will both be on a separate server so your comment is moot.

NordJitsu

@DeLindsay‌

You're wrong.

PC players will have the option to transfer their characters to console if they pre-ordered the console version prior to June something or other.

That means there will be plenty of catching up to do for exclusive console players.

And what about new entries into the game? Does ZOS want to actually grow their subscriber base?

Horizontal progression allows Veterans and newbies alike to keep busy. Vertical progression benefits only vets while newbies fall further and further behind, feeling like they can never catch up and (thus) never compete in PvP.

Jeremy

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Jeremy‌

The point isn't that leveling should be taken out of RPGs, which your posts seem to argue against. It also isn't that the level cap should never be raised.

I simply wanted to convey that the level cap was raised too quickly for my tastes, if this is indicative of a trend. Again, I'm not upset with it this time. I just don't want to see it continue.

Raising the level cap is vertical progression, which is easy and lazy for the devs. All you do is keep everything in the game exactly as is but increase the numbers.

Horizontal progression actually gives us more to do. Adding skill lines, adding new forms of game play (dueling, Arenas, horse racing, spell crafting) take more effort from the devs but they're also a lot more enjoyable to consume.

That's not to say I don't enjoy leveling in the first place so you can keep your "go to another genre" comments. And its not to say that over the life cycle of the game you shouldn't have both vertical and linear progression.

The question here is about degrees. Turning it into a false dichotomy does nothing but simplify the issue and stifle discussion.

I prefer level increases to be accompanied by new skill options and content to explore as well. So we aren't in disagreement about that.

My go to another genre comments are aimed at those who consider leveling up their characters generally to be a grind and don't enjoy it. Not those players who would like to see more complex options to become available as they level up.

Obscure

Oh level cap progression, how you arbitrarily constrain content and needlessly bottle neck end game populations into one zone.

Linear progression systems only get you from point A to point B, and once the player arrives at point B literally every stitch of content they went through to get there is valueless to them. Absence of engaging repeatability of content devalues the product forcing the development scope to add a new point B frequently to maintain asset value. In simple terms players that have gotten to the end don't ever feel the desire to go back to the middle. Doing some scavenger hunt stuff like sky shards and lore books? Yeah, you'll probably see less than 5% of players do that more than once. VR10, VR12, VR50, it won't matter. Linear progression makes all those long hard days spent voice acting, level designing, and quest writing less and less worth having done one player who out levels it at a time. Craglorn will be a ghost town as soon as the next little end game raid nugget is tossed in that raises the cap again, it's inevitable. The ramifications of this self destructive game design have been seen and felt for well over a decade, yet ZOS seems to ignore it as if the rules do not apply to their game.

This is just going to be another unheeded thread, warning the Dev's against what I'm certain they're already doing with no thought paid to altering course. It's not going to lose them my sub, hell I'll be here till they turn off the servers years from now, but the majority of subscribers? Yeah it's not going to end well. But hey live and learn right? Maybe they'll do better with an ESO2?

Indarqeen

yep stupid decision!!! this is way too fast

Nomadh_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Jeremy‌

The point isn't that leveling should be taken out of RPGs, which your posts seem to argue against. It also isn't that the level cap should never be raised.

I simply wanted to convey that the level cap was raised too quickly for my tastes, if this is indicative of a trend. Again, I'm not upset with it this time. I just don't want to see it continue.

Raising the level cap is vertical progression, which is easy and lazy for the devs. All you do is keep everything in the game exactly as is but increase the numbers.

Horizontal progression actually gives us more to do. Adding skill lines, adding new forms of game play (dueling, Arenas, horse racing, spell crafting) take more effort from the devs but they're also a lot more enjoyable to consume.

That's not to say I don't enjoy leveling in the first place so you can keep your "go to another genre" comments. And its not to say that over the life cycle of the game you shouldn't have both vertical and linear progression.

The question here is about degrees. Turning it into a false dichotomy does nothing but simplify the issue and stifle discussion.

I prefer level increases to be accompanied by new skill options and content to explore as well. So we aren't in disagreement about that.

My go to another genre comments are aimed at those who consider leveling up their characters generally to be a grind and don't enjoy it. Not those players who would like to see more complex options to become available as they level up.

The biggest issue here is the time laps between one increase and other. Not the fact if rasing the level cap should be implemented or not. If you had experience in MMORPGS you would probably know that (and am not trying to be rude).

It is desireble to have an increase in cap from time to time, 1 year into the game maybe? The OP started this topic within the context of having after not even 2 months since the game launched the increase in cap with ingame items already refering to VR 14. You dont have all your abilities maxed to 50 right? And by what mean you associate new skills with level cap? By playing SWTOR?

Phantorang

nm

Jeremy

magellib16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Jeremy‌

The point isn't that leveling should be taken out of RPGs, which your posts seem to argue against. It also isn't that the level cap should never be raised.

I simply wanted to convey that the level cap was raised too quickly for my tastes, if this is indicative of a trend. Again, I'm not upset with it this time. I just don't want to see it continue.

Raising the level cap is vertical progression, which is easy and lazy for the devs. All you do is keep everything in the game exactly as is but increase the numbers.

Horizontal progression actually gives us more to do. Adding skill lines, adding new forms of game play (dueling, Arenas, horse racing, spell crafting) take more effort from the devs but they're also a lot more enjoyable to consume.

That's not to say I don't enjoy leveling in the first place so you can keep your "go to another genre" comments. And its not to say that over the life cycle of the game you shouldn't have both vertical and linear progression.

The question here is about degrees. Turning it into a false dichotomy does nothing but simplify the issue and stifle discussion.

I prefer level increases to be accompanied by new skill options and content to explore as well. So we aren't in disagreement about that.

My go to another genre comments are aimed at those who consider leveling up their characters generally to be a grind and don't enjoy it. Not those players who would like to see more complex options to become available as they level up.

The biggest issue here is the time laps between one increase and other. Not the fact if rasing the level cap should be implemented or not. If you had experience in MMORPGS you would probably know that (and am not trying to be rude).

It is desireble to have an increase in cap from time to time, 1 year into the game maybe? The OP started this topic within the context of having after not even 2 months since the game launched the increase in cap with ingame items already refering to VR 14. You dont have all your abilities maxed to 50 right? And by what mean you associate new skills with level cap? By playing SWTOR?

I've been playing MMORPGs since Final Fantasy 11 was first released well over a decade ago magellib and level cap increases have never bothered me. As far as I'm concerned, all they do is increase the life of the game and I look forward to obtaining them. So I would prefer they come as often as possible.

As far as your reference to SWTOR I don't understand what you mean. You'll have to explain that in more detail if you want me to comment about that.

Nomadh_ESO

I just want to test a theory and forgive me for being redundant.

Situation one: Raise level cap and put VR12-14 content back to you original starting area. Meaning VR16-18 or 20-25 would put you linearly back to todays VR area. Would you like that? If you say no it means you're more worried about the content then level cap.

Situation two: No increase in level cap but have new areas to explore (Expansions, DLC's, whatever) and at the same time having opening up to new Guild abilities or World abilities etc. An increase in level cap after a new expansion in one year.

Situation three: Having both new areas and increased level cap every month/2 months so that you are VR24 in one year, VR36 in two, VR48 in 3 and VR 165(or whatever) in a 10 year laps? You do realize that an mmo to survive must be playable even for people who start 4 years from now? I dont think its even possible to add that much content every 2 months, it would be a suicide strategy.

Please comment.

Maverick827

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

Please do not listen to OP. This is his first MMORPG

What other AAA MMORPG increases the level cap every few months?

Again, level cap is 50, these are bonus ranks as part of the 50+ and 50++ part of the game. There has been no level cap raise.

This is a ridiculous argument. Veteran ranks are the exact same thing as levels under a different name.

If attributes and gear stopped at level 50 then you'd have a point.

Phaedryn

NerfEverything wrote: »

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

They will do something to offset that. 50% exp bonus for console players, or let them start out at level 50. It is fairly common practice in these situations.

Actually...console will not be playing on the same servers as PCs so the argument is irrelevant.

Gimick

Thalmar wrote: »

Gimick wrote: »

kasain wrote: »

Hey if they make it Vet 25, by the time console comes out, my guess is those players will lose interest fast. They would have six months to climb a mountain to even compete against people in PvP.

Except for the fact that when you step into PvP you are, currently, raised to vet level 5. So, as intended, you can PvP at level 10, when Cyridil opens up to you.

They've stated that they will continue to raise the PvP level as the level cap increases.

And you honestly believe a level 10 with 2-3 skills to use with 3 passives will be competitive against full geared VR12 with nearly 300 skill points and filled up all passive skills? I don't mention that they should be equal at all, don't missinterpret my comment but i believe there is no way they give a fair game as the level cap raised. Even some people wil disagree adding 1 or 2 dedicated level 1-49 campaigns will be filled with players who enjoys slow paced leveling or leveling in PvP. I still think the reason most of the campaigns are low on all times now is the unfair play and VR10s now 12s ruling Cyrodiil.

I didn't say anything about being competitive, but now that you bring it up...

The comment I was responding to was concerned about people "catching up" after starting the game fresh. Since the game has a mechanic in it that automatically "catches you up" when you enter the PvP area, then it's a moot point. So you everyone is caught up as soon as they hit level 10, regardless of the level cap being Vet 12 or Vet 10000.

Being competitive once you are "caught up" is a different argument. But I will say that I am Vet 12. I currently have about 20 unspent skill points and I had all of my viable PvP skills and passives, leveled, morphed and being used on a regular basis by the time I was in my 40-ish levels. Every skill point after that has been gravy, gone into crafting, or rotting.

So combine my two points and you shall see, that new people can go PvP and get a taste for it at level 10 and then as they level up over the next 30 or so levels, they will reach their potential. Doesn't seem like the "months of mountain climbing" that the quoted poster was worried about. And in the current game design it won't matter what the max level is, as it is designed to even the players out eventually.

Artemiisia

Gisgo wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

Please DO NOT stop raising the level cap! Leveling a character is what brings some of us the most joy.

I dont want to flame you i dont mind different playstyles from mine, but isnt the fun clearing dungeons, killing stuff, getting gear... rather than just leveling up?

the fun is cleaing dungeons, killing stuff, getting gear and leveling up, getting new and better gear, its called progression

Desdemonte

Kalman wrote: »

HaHa they will probably do this for each new zone they add. Look at the Map see all the zones that don't exist. Final cap will end up like VR50.

Rumor has it VR100

Desdemonte

Haxer wrote: »

I completely agree with horizontal expansion. Right now there isn't much to do except hop on and grind quests. I understand the need to add end-game content quickly to address the characters that are there already, but they need to add horizontal content to enjoy all the way up the tree, not just at the end.

-Guild halls/players housing (instanced not static)
-Guild functionality
-cosmetic gear options (why is 100% of light armor a gryffindor robe?)
-Thieves Guild/Dark brotherhood

Some of these are already in the works, but you get the idea. They need to add sideways content for all, and not only keep throwing vertical content at the end, pushing it farther back.

+1

Bars

[quote="Desdemonte

Rumor has it VR100[/quote]

lol I was hoping 2 catch up in this life lime xD

FunkyBudda

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Thalmar‌

I hope you don't quit playing. If ZOS gets enough constructive feedback on why this is a bad idea, they might hold off on increasing the VR for a while. Say what you want about these devs, but they do a good job of listening to feedback (much of the time at least.)

If they leave it at VR12 for a good long while, people like yourself might be able to catch up (or nearly catch up.)

There may be less of a difference between VR1 and VR10 than there is between level 49 and VR1 in PvP. As soon as you hit VR1, PvP will be much more fun.

the point is less about catch up, it's about able to reach that point and maintain it for a while. Right now, casual players havent even caught up to VR10 yet, and now they just added 2 more VR levels. At some point all type of players should have an relatively even playing ground before grind starts again... Or better yet, make VR12 the last of the increase on VR levels and focus on bug fixing.

Desdemonte

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

Please do not listen to OP. This is his first MMORPG

What other AAA MMORPG increases the level cap every few months?

Again, level cap is 50, these are bonus ranks as part of the 50+ and 50++ part of the game. There has been no level cap raise.

Call it what you want- we all know that 50 is not the level cap. It's when you leave the daycare.

NordJitsu

FunkyBudda wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Thalmar‌

I hope you don't quit playing. If ZOS gets enough constructive feedback on why this is a bad idea, they might hold off on increasing the VR for a while. Say what you want about these devs, but they do a good job of listening to feedback (much of the time at least.)

If they leave it at VR12 for a good long while, people like yourself might be able to catch up (or nearly catch up.)

There may be less of a difference between VR1 and VR10 than there is between level 49 and VR1 in PvP. As soon as you hit VR1, PvP will be much more fun.

the point is less about catch up, it's about able to reach that point and maintain it for a while. Right now, casual players havent even caught up to VR10 yet, and now they just added 2 more VR levels. At some point all type of players should have an relatively even playing ground before grind starts again... Or better yet, make VR12 the last of the increase on VR levels and focus on bug fixing.

I completely agree. You should be able to get to level cap and sit there, while still having things to do.

Desdemonte

I see a couple problems with "end game" right now.

One is that level cap is increasing too quickly. This makes me wonder when they're going to actually say "OK, that's it guys. This is the highest you can go". I play a lot and am not even VR4 yet. I feel I will always be playing catch up and never will be competitive in PvP or end game PvE.

Plus the changes in gear quality from level to level is so marginal, I have no interest in it. It's not worth the work. Especially since it will be outdated so quickly if there are constant level increases. Maybe that's why the quality jump is so minute- so people don't feel a dire need to upgrade for maybe 5 VR levels or so. Even still, I look at the bonuses on the new VR 12 stuff and it seems very "meh" even when compared to VR1 stuff that's out there.

As it is now, I can't imagine many new people wanting to join this game and it's only 2 months in! The uphill battle is daunting, then add all the crap the game has been dealing with since release.... Ouch.

I guess lastly is the survivability of PvP in this game. The bigger the level spread, the less likely the low level players will want to get involved.

TicToc

Yes, keep increasing the level cap and keep and ever widening divide between newer/casual players and the endgame content.

The purpose of having a cap is to have a final destination where everyone will eventually be even and be able to participate together in endgame content. Once there is a realization that the carrot cannot be caught, it ceases to be an incentive, and interest is lost.

By all means, raise the cap once in a while, when the majority of the people are ready for it, but don't keep moving the carrot farther and farther away, just for the sake of doing it.

McDoogs

veteran leveling is horrid. don't make players do it every couple of months.