ESO - sadly - is not an MMO

drogon1

Yes, this is slightly misleading. BUT it is no more misleading than claiming that it IS an MMO. Let me explain.

MMOs differ from single player games primarily in the content they offer: MMOs offer a plethora of group content in addition to the single player content offered in a single player title. Traditional triple-A MMOs - for example, WoW, GW2, FF VIX, Rift, Lotro, SWTOR - enable a player to advance their character through single player content (almost exclusively single player content quests) and through group content (dungeons, group quests, pvp). These MMOs enable a player to advance their character viably through all the content (both group and single player content) they offer. The player is free to choose between single player content or group content depending on their individual preferences, and is not penalized in their advancement.

Enter ESO that UNDERMINES this basic MMO experience and expectation.

In ESO, to reach VR levels, the player has only ONE viable route: single-player content, exclusively. The game offers the plethora of MMO group content (dungeons, pvp), but has - astonishly - decided that you CANNOT advance your character by doing it.

In short, ESO is the odd game that offers MMO group content to the player, but prevents him from advancing his character by playing it.

This has a number of negative consequences:

First, there is actually NO reason to play a character specialized for group play. Playing a healer or tank through exclusively single player content can be fun, but for the average MMO player, it will not be done.

Second, grouping is pointless. I am not talking about the phasing mechanics here. The single player content in ESO as in most MMOs is common denominator and fairly faceroll. Grouping to do it makes it even less challenging - and unfun - than it already is.

Third, making an alt in the same faction is pointless, unless you enjoy performing the same quests (designed for the single-player) that you already did.

Fourth, although the xp is marginally better in PvP than in PvE group content, advancing your character in PvP is too onerous to be considered viable (especially as being underleveled you will expect to be facerolled out there).

In sum, it is misleading to advertise ESO as an MMO. Bizarrely, it tells the MMO player - "Look at all this wonderful group content we offer, just DON'T TOUCH!" I bought the Imperial Edition of this game expecting an MMO. You can say I'm pretty angry.

Godless_Heathen

Developers make certain decisions at launch, particularly around XP, that are altered as the game matures. Some of these decisions are intended to "slow" the progress of heavy users, while allowing the more "casual" players to remain in the fat part of the curve of player progression.

This is the main reason you see group XP low, veteran rank mob xp low, etc etc. As the mass of the player base levels, XP for group based activities is modified, this is a fundamental tool at the hands of developers to allow the leveling "gap" between heavy and casual users to remain smaller than it would otherwise.

Yes, there are still those at the very tail of the curve that will play nonstop and achieve V10 in 5 hours; but imagine how many V10s there would have been on day one if all they had to do was group and AE farm mobs.

Regardless, by definition, ESO is an MMO.

grahamz1b14_ESO

It's not an MMO? Does that mean that those guys I grouped with this past evening for 3 dungeons were npcs? What about the Dark Anchors? Those people who helped me take out the bosses for the achievements, they were my imagination? The guys that clog up the bank making it difficult to reach the banker, those were npcs put there by Zenimax to fool me?

To quote "The Princess Bride": 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.'

darthbelanb14_ESO

I beg to differ in regards to Rift, TOR, LOTRO, and GW2. Any meaningful leveling in those games is done through questing. Rift's instant adventures is decent, but not as fast as leveling through questing. I'd say ESO is on par with most MMO's.

dietlime

I gotta say now that the major rush of players is thinned out, the game is a lot more compelling. Yesterday me and my GF did an anchor, and by the time we were done it slowly grew to about ~10 people; but just starting it was a real challenge without help so each player joining made it easier.

Then everyone organically ran off in different directions, and it was neat.

siledre

it's an online game, it's multiplayer, I don't know if it's massive but still enough play it to overlook that so yes, it is an MMO.

dietlime

I mean at this point they're calling Diablo 3 an MMO so this thread really blows OP.

TheBull

PvE guy not wanting to PvP. Nothing to see here.

drogon1

The amount of obtuseness (excepting the first poster) in this thread is ridiculous. If you have no problem calling an online game an MMO if it REQUIRES you to play single player content 99% of the time, then there is nothing to say.

In reply to the intelligent post of the first responder, I hope that they will make adjustments to xp sooner rather than later. Because they are losing my sub and most of my friends' subs sooner rather than later.

Penumbra

LOL at OP. MMO by definition is "A multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously". Nothing less, nothing more.
I could make an MMO that will harbor 10 million people and have it just play single player quests until end game.

In ESO, to reach VR levels, the player has only ONE viable route: single-player content, exclusively. The game offers the plethora of MMO group content (dungeons, pvp), but has - astonishly - decided that you CANNOT advance your character by doing it.

----FALSE---You cannot advance your character by grouping? Seriously? That you have a single player quest AKA Main quest to finish and then go to VR zones its totally a different thing that what you are saying. And Im glad its that way, because like so many others MMO´s letting groups take on main quests for advancement lets higher level players help lower level. (For example in swtor I finished my main storyline at level 37 because I had the help of a level 50 helping me kill the boss.) Which happens in all the games you mentinoned above and I have, and some still play.

In short, ESO is the odd game that offers MMO group content to the player, but prevents him from advancing his character by playing it.

---FALSE---In short stop talking things you don't know nothing about, learn more about the game and then make a reasonable post. And no, I'm not a fan boy by defending TESO. Evething you wrote HAPPENS to all of the other MMO's, with the exception of Lotro which I stopped playing after the first 2 weeks.

First, there is actually NO reason to play a character specialized for group play.

I don't know what to say about this, you clearly have no clue how this game is meant to be played.

Second, grouping is pointless.

---FALSE---If you only knew that group grinding is faster than doing quests.....ya so pointless....and you go do a Public dungeon alone see how well it goes...

Third, making an alt in the same faction is pointless, unless you enjoy performing the same quests (designed for the single-player) that you already did.

Once again...REALLY?? Tell me of any of the games you mentioned above that has different quests if you make an alt on same faction....Are you kidding me? At this point I think you are a TROLL but I will keep writing

Fourth, although the xp is marginally better in PvP than in PvE group content, advancing your character in PvP is too onerous to be considered viable (especially as being underleveled you will expect to be facerolled out there).

Ya, too onerous to be considered viable that it was nerfed the first week because it was actually faster to level than PVE content. Even now, doing non-PVP quests in Cyrodiil and doing some pvp on the side is faster than PVE. If you don't know how then thats another story, and another poorly assumption by you.

So to sum it up, you are either a TROLL or someone who has played the game up to level 10 and clearly made very poor assumptions about the game, and what an MMO is "by definition".

Sleepwalker

drogon1 wrote: »

ESO - sadly - is not the type of MMO I'm used to

drogon1 wrote: »

ESO - sadly - is not the traditional MMO

Fixed your title for you.

And your "percentage" here:

drogon1 wrote: »

...If you have no problem calling an online game an MMO if it REQUIRES you to play single player content 99% of the time, then there is nothing to say...

... is so incorrect, that you're right. There really is nothing to say.

siledre

drogon1 wrote: »

The amount of obtuseness (excepting the first poster) in this thread is ridiculous. If you have no problem calling an online game an MMO if it REQUIRES you to play single player content 99% of the time, then there is nothing to say.

In reply to the intelligent post of the first responder, I hope that they will make adjustments to xp sooner rather than later. Because they are losing my sub and most of my friends' subs sooner rather than later.

it doesn't REQUIRE you to play single player, that is YOUR choice, an incorrect assessment no matter how you argue it, still makes it incorrect.

drogon1

LOL at Penumbra. You sir, need to find a clue.

For you, an "MMO" includes a game that can be played online with lots of people running in the background, but that has ZERO group content. Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, you can use the word that way - hell any way you want - but it will not be the way the word is normally used in gaming circles; nor the way the word is used as applied to the MMOs that I listed (dunno what you're point there was about). Thus, it is misleading as applied to ESO.

Your argument: ESO is not a single player game because 1% of the time to max level you can group with others. (Yeah yeah, maybe I'm exaggerating ... a little; maybe it's more like 5%.) In any event, bad argument.

And then you bring up group grinding. Grinding? LOL, are you serious? I'm talking about games that purport to be AAA.

I spent hours pvp'ing in Cyro as soon as I hit level 10 and barely budged my xp bar. I still go to have fun, but I don't expect to level there. I def don't go to Cyro to do yet more single player quest content, so yeah count me ignorant on the Cyro questing possibilities. But this latter hasn't a thing to do with what I'm saying.

Zepheric

Well actually the most viable route to VR leveling is group content IE world bosses/dungeons/dolmens grinding with minor questing.

So I have no idea what the basis of your point is now?

drogon1

Zepheric wrote: »

Well actually the most viable route to VR leveling is group content IE world bosses/dungeons/dolmens grinding with minor questing.

So I have no idea what the basis of your point is now?

My comments are directed to the pre-VR leveling experience from 1-50.

Zepheric

Snip

aleister

Godless_Heathen wrote: »

Developers make certain decisions at launch...

Yep. They made a lot of really bad ones for ESO.

drogon1

siledre wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

The amount of obtuseness (excepting the first poster) in this thread is ridiculous. If you have no problem calling an online game an MMO if it REQUIRES you to play single player content 99% of the time, then there is nothing to say.

In reply to the intelligent post of the first responder, I hope that they will make adjustments to xp sooner rather than later. Because they are losing my sub and most of my friends' subs sooner rather than later.

it doesn't REQUIRE you to play single player, that is YOUR choice, an incorrect assessment no matter how you argue it, still makes it incorrect.

This is a fine example of obtuseness.

She argues: you don't have to play solo, you can group up anytime.

None of which has anything to do with what I said.

You cannot advance your character in a meaningful way in ESO without doing single player content 95% of the time (yeah 99% was a tad exaggerated).

WTH does this have to do with playing solo or not?

Creslian7

Eso not a MMORPG? hmm let me think.

It is Massive.
It is Multiplayer
It is Online
It has a Role
That you Play
and is a Game

Is it not these things? As a classic NB of dw/bow/medium armor leveling, I found the content to be the opposite of faceroll. It's reminds me of an old school mmo, like Everquest. If i had played a bash monkey as a DK or sorc my view may have been different. As for grouping, I grouped the entire time leveling from 1 to vr10, there are many many fights that the 2 of us (both NB classic rogue builds) would not have been able to complete solo and were difficult with 2 of us.

There are several instanced group dungeons available while leveling. Each zone has a group 1 public dungeon with a group challenged. Each zone has multiple Dolmens that require a group to complete.

Now the difference, you don't need to be in the same party to complete any of the above except the instanced dungeon. Actually, nm.......

After rereading the initial post I will mark it up as troll bait used to kill time while the servers are down.

Zepheric

drogon1 wrote: »

You cannot advance your character in a meaningful way in ESO without doing single player content 95% of the time (yeah 99% was a tad exaggerated).

1-50 is FAR from 95% of the game, what level is your character?

You know they are probably going to raise the cap to VR 20 right?

This is an MMORPG, 90% of the game is at max level....

Edit: I realize that is not exactly what you said, but I still want you to answer, because I feel like most people don't understand this part.

Penumbra

No Drogorn. I made an example that I could make a game with 10 million users and have it played entirely on a single player experience and it would still be an MMO.

Your whole point to say that ESO is not an MMO is by saying that this game penilizes the player in their advancement by not grouping which entirely false. More so when you say that UNDERMINES this basic MMO experience and expectation.

You have set your mind as to what ESO is. Clearly is not meant for you, but stop trying to UNDERMINE the game by your missconceptions about what an MMO should be, when you clearly came here to complain about expectations. You are not pleased? Sorry, Wildstar is around the corner. Perhaps you might have a better luck there? Oh btw you will find out that the whole starting zone before you go out to the wild is designed for single player. Unlike hmmm ESO!!! Oh my!

drogon1

Sleepwalker wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

ESO - sadly - is not the type of MMO I'm used to

drogon1 wrote: »

ESO - sadly - is not the traditional MMO

Fixed your title for you.

And your "percentage" here:

drogon1 wrote: »

...If you have no problem calling an online game an MMO if it REQUIRES you to play single player content 99% of the time, then there is nothing to say...

... is so incorrect, that you're right. There really is nothing to say.

What exactly is your argument that ESO is a traditional MMO? You have none, sir, other than bald assertion, which is worse than having none.

Yes yes, 99% is exaggerated. What, praytell, then is the exact percentage of total xp of a new level 50 that does not come from single player content? 5%?

You don't even make a bald assertion here where it actually is perfectly ok. LOL.

Arreyanne

Zepheric wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

You cannot advance your character in a meaningful way in ESO without doing single player content 95% of the time (yeah 99% was a tad exaggerated).

1-50 is FAR from 95% of the game, what level is your character?

You know they are probably going to raise the cap to VR 20 right?

This is an MMORPG, 90% of the game is at max level....

Edit: I realize that is not exactly what you said, but I still want you to answer, because I feel like most people don't understand this part.

And that's the problem with MMO's once you leave a zone the zone is now worthless for you.

Someday maybe they will make a MMO that will have all zones replayable, maybe someday

drogon1

Creslian7 wrote: »

Eso not a MMORPG? hmm let me think.

It is Massive.
It is Multiplayer
It is Online
It has a Role
That you Play
and is a Game

Is it not these things?

This is a cute counter-argument. But vapid.

Simple question should get a simple answer. What percentage of a new level 50 total xp flows from single player content? What % from group content?

Note: for the more obtuse, whether you were grouped for the single player content does not make it "group content."

drogon1

Zepheric wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

You cannot advance your character in a meaningful way in ESO without doing single player content 95% of the time (yeah 99% was a tad exaggerated).

1-50 is FAR from 95% of the game, what level is your character?

You know they are probably going to raise the cap to VR 20 right?

This is an MMORPG, 90% of the game is at max level....

Edit: I realize that is not exactly what you said, but I still want you to answer, because I feel like most people don't understand this part.

Again, my comments are directed to 1-50.

drogon1

Penumbra wrote: »

No Drogorn. I made an example that I could make a game with 10 million users and have it played entirely on a single player experience and it would still be an MMO.

Your whole point to say that ESO is not an MMO is by saying that this game penilizes the player in their advancement by not grouping which entirely false. More so when you say that UNDERMINES this basic MMO experience and expectation.

You have set your mind as to what ESO is. Clearly is not meant for you, but stop trying to UNDERMINE the game by your missconceptions about what an MMO should be, when you clearly came here to complain about expectations. You are not pleased? Sorry, Wildstar is around the corner. Perhaps you might have a better luck there? Oh btw you will find out that the whole starting zone before you go out to the wild is designed for single player. Unlike hmmm ESO!!! Oh my!

Let's try a different approach for the more challenged.

Say, you need 100 total xp to reach level 50 in ESO. How much of that will realistically come from single player content? How much from group content?

This is something the game devs decide. At the moment, my guess is that 5% of the total xp is designed to come from group content.

Because of this decision, I claimed that calling ESO an MMO in the traditional sense was misleading.

Why? Because in the other triple-A MMOs, the total xp needed to reach max level can be gotten VIABLY from many different sources. In contrast, in ESO you are pidgeon-holed into single player content to advance your character (gain xp).

Does this make it easier?

Zepheric

[/quote]



Simple question should get a simple answer. What percentage of a new level 50 total xp flows from single player content? What % from group content?


[/quote]


So your question is What percentage of a VR 1's level comes from single player content?

The answer to that is up to you

What % is from group content

The answer to that is up to you

What is the most efficient way to level and gain XP as a Fresh VR 1?

Group content

World Bosses

Dolmens

Dungeons

Also, you never answered my question even though you aren't just talking about 1-50 sir, you also act like 1-50 is a majority of the game when in fact it is merely the beginning of the game and shouldn't require as much balancing as you think.

Is WoW famous for its 1-40 content?

It is just kind of ridiculous that because you had a certain experience you proclaim for all that it is that way when in fact you have several people that have contradictory experiences.

You also claim that doing this content prevents you from advancing your character, you need to read the patch notes sir, because they fixed that with gear drops and chests in dolmens and public dungeons /delves which are now officially the best way to advance and earn XP on a 50+ character

As for 1-50, It works just fine, it is not the majority of the game content, and warrants no immediate action as plenty of people seem able to reach level 50.

Also, ESO has no reason to want to act like other MMO's because it is not.

Stop trying to make changes to a game, because you want it to play like other games you used to like..

Maybe you should just get used to something new.

yodased

To dismiss something as not being important or a failure because it doesn't fit into a mold you determined it needs to fit is a good way to keep yourself from experiencing new and fun things.

This game by its purest definition is A MMORPG, in the simple fact that its a video game played by multiple people at the same time and its a role playing game. That's the only definition of a MMORPG that is objective enough to matter imho.

What you are saying is its not the MMORPG that you feel it SHOULD be, which is still fine and acceptable, but should not be presented as fact. (ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ

PhoenixWing

Coming from FFXIV, I can assure you the situation is the same there. Although you can level up with group contents (and those were not even remotely viable until recent patches 3 months ago), you have to clear the main storyline to get to endgame contents and dungeons too.

The main difference is that the quests in FFXIV are a lot easier than in ESO, which is one of the things I liked about ESO more but some people might find quests too hard if they specced their chars for group play, though.

But yeah, I understand your feeling. Questing in this game is quite tedious because there are too many quests to do lol.

drogon1

Zepheric I appreciate your input, but it's not relevant. As I have stated repreatedly, I'm talking about pre-VR content.

I am also surprised at how blithely you dismiss the 1-50 content. It is probably the most important content in this new game at the moment.

I want to see this MMO flourish. There is a lot to like about it.

But fundamental xp re-design is needed to see that happen. This is what I'm arguing.

Zepheric

Why are you suprised, the pre cap content has never been important or emphasized over End game content in any MMO I have ever played, and because they do the same thing here you have a problem?

1-50 is frankly a tiny part of the game, you don't see that now but when the max rank is VR 20 you might understand that.

You know how MMO's work man, it is tough work leveling up it is sometimes monotonous if you really just want max rank but the real work starts when you hit max level. (Or in this case the VR1-20 grind we are starting)

And ZOS made it really tough so you appreciate it, and it works.

I am sorry this may not work for you, but nothing is broken here.

I suggest you give this a chance and not complain for changes when things work a certain way to benefit those who invest a lot of their time into this game.

Which it should, because its a dang MMORPG.

It is MMO for sure

It is an RPG

You play a role

In a game

That is massively multiplayer

Im not sure what else to answer, please continue to discuss this with me and don't give me one line answers, I am trying to understand your logic.