Overload heavy attack is cool and fun there’s a lot of players who think this way. And for the first time in forever it actually became somewhat viable.
Please reconsider

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin Can you clarify what this means:
"Fixed an issue where this set’s damage done bonus to Heavy Attacks that did not operate as other damage done bonuses, resulting in it being much higher than intended in certain cases."

Is this an across the board nerf to how voidmantle interacts with HA sets, Weapons Expert and/or empower, or is there some very specific use case you're trying to address. Basically, I'd like to know if "certain cases" is some edge case hardly anyone is aware of, or if "certain cases" means any case were people build using the natural and accessible ways that buff heavy attacks.

I also disagree with not making it work with overload, btw.

Indeed, the explanation is very unclear. Even if it’s in fact some unintended interaction, it does not break the game, it is not that strong in any scenario but is actually very fun. It is not even popular to use.

There is no harm in making it an exception to some rule if it allows players to have fun while bringing no harm.

play the way you want, so long as its the way we want you to play

Fun detected!!

Come on guys - y'all gotta stop.

Its kinda hilarious that this is just another nerf for Sorcs.
As if they haven't been hit hard enough yet.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just for additional follow up, we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.

We have also passed this thread along for additional feedback, but please make sure to add feedback to the itemization feedback thread as well.

Nice to have a quick response on this topic Kevin!

I also strongly agree with others on this, overload as it stands and the way its used it is just in fact channeling a heavy attack and based on that it SHOULD be buffed by Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

Besides that, i think that Overload gives players that love to play heavy attack builds the opportunity to be able to deal a decent amount of single target and cleave damage (compared to other ultimates) while still maintaining their heavy attack playstyle.

Ofcourse if there are issues where the damage bonus isn't working like intended or the way other bonuses do etc. that would be a fair fix, but to me on live server Rakkhats Voidmantle doesnt feel overpowered and its more likely where at should be damagewise compared to other options in my opinion.

I might do some decent testing and comparing with whatever changes the team comes up next week on PTS!


thank you in advance!

Why is it so hard to keep things the players enjoy in the game? The absolute ceiling of Voidmantle is still not in the same dimension as the strongest options, but it's a fun and competitive playstyle.

Give me ONE example of Overload heavy attack being viable in pve with an alternative to Voidmantle.

What use is the cool animation and sound-design if we never get to see it?

MlRAAK wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just for additional follow up, we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.

We have also passed this thread along for additional feedback, but please make sure to add feedback to the itemization feedback thread as well.

Nice to have a quick response on this topic Kevin!

I also strongly agree with others on this, overload as it stands and the way its used it is just in fact channeling a heavy attack and based on that it SHOULD be buffed by Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

Besides that, i think that Overload gives players that love to play heavy attack builds the opportunity to be able to deal a decent amount of single target and cleave damage (compared to other ultimates) while still maintaining their heavy attack playstyle.

Ofcourse if there are issues where the damage bonus isn't working like intended or the way other bonuses do etc. that would be a fair fix, but to me on live server Rakkhats Voidmantle doesnt feel overpowered and its more likely where at should be damagewise compared to other options in my opinion.

I might do some decent testing and comparing with whatever changes the team comes up next week on PTS!


thank you in advance!

I totally agree. On live Voidmantle is in a really good spot both without and with overload. It’s not the best but still quite competitive and enables new fun playstyles. And overload in particular requires a certain amount of effort to make full use of voidmantle too. Like buffing, tracking off-balance, knowing when best to save and when to use overload etc. It is by no means free damage.

Even if it is due to an unintended interaction it is great as it is. Make that interaction this mythic’s feature. There is no need to make all stuff work the same way, does it matter if the end result is good? If all similar stuff works the same way it only makes gameplay more bland.

Diversity can be expanded not only with damage numbers and flavours but with unique mechanics and interactions too.
Please, consider this for future updates as well.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is a contradictory trend. There is nothing unintended about its function and overload not obeying certain rules. Overload is a light and heavy attack. Voidmantle nerfs the light attack portion but buffs the heavy attack portion. It's doing exactly as instructed. Is the overload ultimate a light and heavy attack ability? Why is it now suddenly being treated as an 'outlier' for a specific function of a specific set? What is the analytical or statistical perspective for this "unintended" function? What is it about overload heavy attacks that is not exhibiting the penalty of the set?

I could be wrong, but I believe the Energy Overload morph specifically restores both Stamina and Magicka on both Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks with Overload. So it could be that Energy Overload is ignoring the "Heavy attacks don't restore resources" part of Rakkhat's.

But if that is the case, it sounds more like Energy Overload would need to be changed, rather than Rakkhat's.

@ZOS_Kevin did mention that "we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.", so maybe it's a matter of Rakkhat's not functioning with Overload's heavy attack specifically? Maybe with Overload it's not actively improving the damage, and instead adding a +50% boost to anything else that boosts Overload's damage?

It would be nice if we could receive more clarification on what exactly is going on, though I won't hold my breath on that.

Calibanana wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is a contradictory trend. There is nothing unintended about its function and overload not obeying certain rules. Overload is a light and heavy attack. Voidmantle nerfs the light attack portion but buffs the heavy attack portion. It's doing exactly as instructed. Is the overload ultimate a light and heavy attack ability? Why is it now suddenly being treated as an 'outlier' for a specific function of a specific set? What is the analytical or statistical perspective for this "unintended" function? What is it about overload heavy attacks that is not exhibiting the penalty of the set?

I could be wrong, but I believe the Energy Overload morph specifically restores both Stamina and Magicka on both Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks with Overload. So it could be that Energy Overload is ignoring the "Heavy attacks don't restore resources" part of Rakkhat's.

But if that is the case, it sounds more like Energy Overload would need to be changed, rather than Rakkhat's.

@ZOS_Kevin did mention that "we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.", so maybe it's a matter of Rakkhat's not functioning with Overload's heavy attack specifically? Maybe with Overload it's not actively improving the damage, and instead adding a +50% boost to anything else that boosts Overload's damage?

It would be nice if we could receive more clarification on what exactly is going on, though I won't hold my breath on that.

Kevin’s phrasing suggests that Rakkhat’s bonus is currently multiplicative with other damage done bonuses (as the alternative to additive), and that issue may well apply to Overload but is not the reason for changing that specific interaction. With these changes they are 1) bug-fixing the (presumably) multiplicative nature of the bonus to all heavies and 2) then making a balance change by disabling its interaction with Overload.

There is precedent for a damage done bonus being multiplicative against most other damage done bonuses, but Rakkhat would not be in the right category for it, since Rakkhat applies to damage done against all enemies, while the multiplicative bonuses are specifically to damage done against monsters.

Right now the category of “damage done (to any enemy)” bonuses is additive within itself (Berserks, Slayers, CP % damage stars, Deadly Strike, etc. — I’d think Empower and Banner would be in here too but haven’t tested them). Then there is a category of “damage done vs monsters” that is also additive within itself (Velothi, Ansuul, and probably Tide-Born). But these categories then multiply together, so for example if you have +50% damage bonuses in total from the first category, throwing in Velothi brings that up to +72.5% (1.5 x 1.15 = 1.725), not just +65% (50% + 15%).

Rakkhat may have been put in the monster category by mistake, or even in it own category, in which case it would be multiplying the vast majority of the damage done bonuses in game instead of adding with them. That same initial +50% bonus from generic “damage done” buffs would be brought up to +125% if Rakkhat were multiplicative (1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25) rather than additive (which would result in +100% rather than +125%). In that case it’d be an extra +25% damage done due to the categorization mistake, or 50% over the intended budget (+75% is 1.5 times its intended bonus).

But then imagine stacking, say, Minor Berserk, Deadly Aim, Banner, Deadly Strike, Weapons Expert, and Empower for +117% damage done with heavies, then multiplying that by 1.5 with Rakkhat for +225.5% total (2.17 x 1.5 =3.255) instead of adding Rakkhat’s 50% for +167% (2.17 + 0.5=2.67). In this case Rakkhat would result in an additive +108.5% instead of +50%. It would be adding more than twice the damage it should.

It would do more or less depending on the total of your other “damage done” bonuses, which could explain the reference to Rakkhat’s bonus being “much higher than intended in certain cases” (like that extra +68.5%) — it might be only somewhat higher in other cases (like the extra +25%) or not higher at all (which would be the case if you have no damage done bonuses).

Unfortunately I won’t have time to test this for the next few days due to travel, but this is one possibility that could explain the notes as written.

virtus753 wrote: »

Calibanana wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is a contradictory trend. There is nothing unintended about its function and overload not obeying certain rules. Overload is a light and heavy attack. Voidmantle nerfs the light attack portion but buffs the heavy attack portion. It's doing exactly as instructed. Is the overload ultimate a light and heavy attack ability? Why is it now suddenly being treated as an 'outlier' for a specific function of a specific set? What is the analytical or statistical perspective for this "unintended" function? What is it about overload heavy attacks that is not exhibiting the penalty of the set?

I could be wrong, but I believe the Energy Overload morph specifically restores both Stamina and Magicka on both Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks with Overload. So it could be that Energy Overload is ignoring the "Heavy attacks don't restore resources" part of Rakkhat's.

But if that is the case, it sounds more like Energy Overload would need to be changed, rather than Rakkhat's.

@ZOS_Kevin did mention that "we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.", so maybe it's a matter of Rakkhat's not functioning with Overload's heavy attack specifically? Maybe with Overload it's not actively improving the damage, and instead adding a +50% boost to anything else that boosts Overload's damage?

It would be nice if we could receive more clarification on what exactly is going on, though I won't hold my breath on that.

Kevin’s phrasing suggests that Rakkhat’s bonus is currently multiplicative with other damage done bonuses (as the alternative to additive), and that issue may well apply to Overload but is not the reason for changing that specific interaction. With these changes they are 1) bug-fixing the (presumably) multiplicative nature of the bonus to all heavies and 2) then making a balance change by disabling its interaction with Overload.

There is precedent for a damage done bonus being multiplicative against most other damage done bonuses, but Rakkhat would not be in the right category for it, since Rakkhat applies to damage done against all enemies, while the multiplicative bonuses are specifically to damage done against monsters.

Right now the category of “damage done (to any enemy)” bonuses is additive within itself (Berserks, Slayers, CP % damage stars, Deadly Strike, etc. — I’d think Empower and Banner would be in here too but haven’t tested them). Then there is a category of “damage done vs monsters” that is also additive within itself (Velothi, Ansuul, and probably Tide-Born). But these categories then multiply together, so for example if you have +50% damage bonuses in total from the first category, throwing in Velothi brings that up to +72.5% (1.5 x 1.15 = 1.725), not just +65% (50% + 15%).

Rakkhat may have been put in the monster category by mistake, or even in it own category, in which case it would be multiplying the vast majority of the damage done bonuses in game instead of adding with them. That same initial +50% bonus from generic “damage done” buffs would be brought up to +125% if Rakkhat were multiplicative (1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25) rather than additive (which would result in +100% rather than +125%). In that case it’d be an extra +25% damage done due to the categorization mistake, or 50% over the intended budget (+75% is 1.5 times its intended bonus).

But then imagine stacking, say, Minor Berserk, Deadly Aim, Banner, Deadly Strike, Weapons Expert, and Empower for +117% damage done with heavies, then multiplying that by 1.5 with Rakkhat for +225.5% total (2.17 x 1.5 =3.255) instead of adding Rakkhat’s 50% for +167% (2.17 + 0.5=2.67). In this case Rakkhat would result in an additive +108.5% instead of +50%. It would be adding more than twice the damage it should.

It would do more or less depending on the total of your other “damage done” bonuses, which could explain the reference to Rakkhat’s bonus being “much higher than intended in certain cases” (like that extra +68.5%) — it might be only somewhat higher in other cases (like the extra +25%) or not higher at all (which would be the case if you have no damage done bonuses).

Unfortunately I won’t have time to test this for the next few days due to travel, but this is one possibility that could explain the notes as written.

Any of this doesn’t matter much when we already know the end result. This unintended interaction actually puts voidmantle in a good spot and makes a a dead ultimate fun and somewhat viable. Math for the sake of math, consistency for the sake of consistency isn’t worth anything when in the end it only ruins the fun players have in the game.

As I said in my previous post there is nothing wrong for stuff to have unique mechanics and interactions. It’s a great way to increase build and gameplay diversity. Unfortunately it hasn’t been recognized by devs and instead everything is being homogenized for the sake of consistency alone, greatly harming diversity, making many skills, sets, and ways of gameplay virtually the same, making the game feel bland.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

If you want to know why they´re removing the interaction with overload, here is one of the reasons it´s being adjusted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtjU0C0qbLg

I´m sure there are some PvE reasons behind it as well, but saying there are no "game-breaking" interactions with Rakkhat´s Voidmantel isn´t exactly true (unless you think 25k+ heavy attack ticks from stealth is fine)

Yes, it’s fine. Gank builds have always existed and now they are in fact at their lowest, so I see no reason to suddenly care about one particular build now when they have died out anyway.

Much easier sure-instant-kill builds have been running rampant for a long time until recently, so I fail to see how this one is game breaking when it’s much less reliable and weaker overall. Not to mention that no one uses it because ganking in general is no longer broken as it used to be. I used this build myself for a day, then got bored and never picked it up again. I spend most of my playtime in cyro or IC (pceu) and other than using the build myself I have only encountered it one single time (gank failed btw).

You may occasionally stumble across a vid like this but the only reason players might bother trying such a build out is for the sole reason of making a vid that features overload ha. Because it’s a skill that everyone find fun but has never had any use, so actually utilizing it in any capacity feels unusual and new. No one uses because it’s good because it is not.

You can’t just take a vid and mess with the game without researching anything at all. So this is most definitely irrelevant and not warranting obliterating a whole fun playstyle in pve.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Ganking and subclass abuse of course lol, an easy fix for that. While overload is active you are incapable of going into stealth. Much better and fair balance change instead of ruining the synergy of overload and voidmantle for every other build.

As I said the build isn't particularly strong/fun and no one uses it anyway. One guy made a vid for the sole reason of featuring voidmantle and overload ha. So it can't even be presented as an argument tbh.
Overload is already riddled with bugs and inconveniences while not even being particularly strong, there's no need to add more.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

.

virtus753 wrote: »

Calibanana wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is a contradictory trend. There is nothing unintended about its function and overload not obeying certain rules. Overload is a light and heavy attack. Voidmantle nerfs the light attack portion but buffs the heavy attack portion. It's doing exactly as instructed. Is the overload ultimate a light and heavy attack ability? Why is it now suddenly being treated as an 'outlier' for a specific function of a specific set? What is the analytical or statistical perspective for this "unintended" function? What is it about overload heavy attacks that is not exhibiting the penalty of the set?

I could be wrong, but I believe the Energy Overload morph specifically restores both Stamina and Magicka on both Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks with Overload. So it could be that Energy Overload is ignoring the "Heavy attacks don't restore resources" part of Rakkhat's.

But if that is the case, it sounds more like Energy Overload would need to be changed, rather than Rakkhat's.

@ZOS_Kevin did mention that "we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.", so maybe it's a matter of Rakkhat's not functioning with Overload's heavy attack specifically? Maybe with Overload it's not actively improving the damage, and instead adding a +50% boost to anything else that boosts Overload's damage?

It would be nice if we could receive more clarification on what exactly is going on, though I won't hold my breath on that.

Kevin’s phrasing suggests that Rakkhat’s bonus is currently multiplicative with other damage done bonuses (as the alternative to additive), and that issue may well apply to Overload but is not the reason for changing that specific interaction. With these changes they are 1) bug-fixing the (presumably) multiplicative nature of the bonus to all heavies and 2) then making a balance change by disabling its interaction with Overload.

There is precedent for a damage done bonus being multiplicative against most other damage done bonuses, but Rakkhat would not be in the right category for it, since Rakkhat applies to damage done against all enemies, while the multiplicative bonuses are specifically to damage done against monsters.

Right now the category of “damage done (to any enemy)” bonuses is additive within itself (Berserks, Slayers, CP % damage stars, Deadly Strike, etc. — I’d think Empower and Banner would be in here too but haven’t tested them). Then there is a category of “damage done vs monsters” that is also additive within itself (Velothi, Ansuul, and probably Tide-Born). But these categories then multiply together, so for example if you have +50% damage bonuses in total from the first category, throwing in Velothi brings that up to +72.5% (1.5 x 1.15 = 1.725), not just +65% (50% + 15%).

Rakkhat may have been put in the monster category by mistake, or even in it own category, in which case it would be multiplying the vast majority of the damage done bonuses in game instead of adding with them. That same initial +50% bonus from generic “damage done” buffs would be brought up to +125% if Rakkhat were multiplicative (1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25) rather than additive (which would result in +100% rather than +125%). In that case it’d be an extra +25% damage done due to the categorization mistake, or 50% over the intended budget (+75% is 1.5 times its intended bonus).

But then imagine stacking, say, Minor Berserk, Deadly Aim, Banner, Deadly Strike, Weapons Expert, and Empower for +117% damage done with heavies, then multiplying that by 1.5 with Rakkhat for +225.5% total (2.17 x 1.5 =3.255) instead of adding Rakkhat’s 50% for +167% (2.17 + 0.5=2.67). In this case Rakkhat would result in an additive +108.5% instead of +50%. It would be adding more than twice the damage it should.

It would do more or less depending on the total of your other “damage done” bonuses, which could explain the reference to Rakkhat’s bonus being “much higher than intended in certain cases” (like that extra +68.5%) — it might be only somewhat higher in other cases (like the extra +25%) or not higher at all (which would be the case if you have no damage done bonuses).

Unfortunately I won’t have time to test this for the next few days due to travel, but this is one possibility that could explain the notes as written.

Yes, and this is -all- fair and I'm all for ensuring the math is done in a balanced manner. The issue is their added inclination of completely disabling its functionality with overload, which is by their own design logic - an inconsistency. All that overinflated math just to make it 'viable' in PvP(lol meme) and a strong competitive option in PvE. This mythic actually makes the heavy attack utilization of overload see some serious usage-case scenarios. But no, apparently, we cannot have that? I really want to see the analytical data that was used to determine that overload is so performant without voidmantle in the first place. Even with all that stacking math, it -still- gets gapped by every other [sub-classed-imbalanced] Arcanist rotation outside of very short fights where all 500 ult worth of voidmantle overload can deliver immense burst as a parse.

A niche burst option is being considered "not exhibiting the penalties" therefore it must be exempt from voidmantle, but not ---every other source of heavy attack amplification sources--- Only voidmantle (I'm generalizing here btw, not trying to assume what your opinion or stance on this is outside of explaining the possible math) Committing to the decision of preventing voidmantle from functioning with overload just sends that ultimate right back into the never-used bin again. And that is very unfortunate and a terrible loss for anyone who found enjoyment in engaging with the power fantasy, role-play, and competitive performance of such a unique ultimate in their daily play.

Right, my post certainly wasn’t meant as a comment on the Overload change. It was an attempt to make sense of the fix part of the notes here (which does not seem specific to the Overload interaction) and to explore just how much over the intended budget Rakkhat can get (in general, not just with Overload) if this interaction is multiplicative as implied. I was curious for myself as well as trying to address the questions people had about what that particular note (and Kevin’s follow-up) actually meant in concrete terms.

I’ll leave the judgment on the Overload interaction to those more familiar with how it works and how much power it offers with Rakkhat in content. Sorc does not happen to be a power fantasy of mine, so I appreciate hearing from those for whom it is! I do find it unfortunate that we’re seeing something bugfixed and nerfed at the same time rather than being fixed and then evaluated for whether it needs balance changes as well, especially when the bugfix alone seems pretty significant in magnitude. (Pyrebrand says hi…)

preevious wrote: »

A nerf is always sad.

But indeed, overload is a bit of a mess, anyway, and should be completely overhauled.
I do use rakkhat, but I didn't switch to overload and still do great damage. You can go up to 120k with Rakkhat, without overload.

And the 20k more given on a parse by overload does not really show in content. So, while it's sad, it's not really a game changer. Parses will get lower, but damage in content will roughly stay the same.

Doesn't come close to arcanist beam subclass.

Even the video for pvp ganks with rakhat's + overload is sort of meh. That level of gank damage is already in the game with various subclass build combos. 100% crit rate + 100% or higher critical damage + 100% pen does a lot of damage.

Now if Rakhat's is calculating incorrectly, and ZOS's comments make it seem multiplicative with other bonuses instead of additive, that possibly is a problem. But that would be a math change affecting ALL heavy attacks not just overload.

katorga wrote: »

Now if Rakhat's is calculating incorrectly, and ZOS's comments make it seem multiplicative with other bonuses instead of additive, that possibly is a problem. But that would be a math change affecting ALL heavy attacks not just overload.

Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but this is in fact what is happening. There are at least 3 clear changes to Voidmantle on pts. Each of these changes is completely independent of the other.

1. Fixed an issue where this set’s damage done bonus to Heavy Attacks that did not operate as other damage done bonuses, resulting in it being much higher than intended in certain cases.

2. The Heavy Attack damage bonus no longer works with Overload, as Overload's Heavy Attacks do not exhibit the penalty of the set.

3. The restore from this set is now treated as a Heavy Attack restore, so it can be augmented by more effects.

The impact of 1 affects anyone using the mythic.