Suggestions how to make PVP playable, fun and a bit more tactical

Wallar333 · April 5

So this is gonna be my last thread here, im not a forum guy, and im not gonna have much time anyway. I only came on this forum cos i like this game, its not forcing me to do anything, which is something i like, while also most of community are verry friendly. Also PVE content is verry nice, just a bit easier than i actually like, but the games PVE is ok to me.
The problem is, i would like to play a PVP content, cos for me its the main reason im playing MMORPG, if i would like to play just PVE, i would play a single player game. PVP here is just INCREDIBLY BAD, ive been playing this game through years from time to time on a different acc, and i always left after a few hours/days of playing, not coming back to this game for usually like half a year, cos PVP was always bad here. BUT now im playing on a new acc for around a year, cos previous one wasnt my own. I tried PVP when i started, and it was unplayable, as i expected, i left it be and did PVE cos i needed to make builds etc. for it, really hoped it could change, but nope, it was the same **** still. I didnt been playing for like 2-3 years before i started year ago, so i hoped ZOS did something with this games PVP meanwhile, but it feels like the same **** as i always remember, which is shame, cos this game is overally really nice, only that incredibly bad state of PVP is literally killing the whole game.

This games PVP could be saved more-less easily, the question is, why it stayed in this state for so long ? [snip]

People are running away from this game cos of overall PVP state, [snip]

I did few suggestions previously in other threads, argued some people over some changes i would like to see in this game, but its over for me, this is definitely ma last thread. I will leave this here, in case ZOS actually cares, if not, then my time was/is literally wasted.

What i would like to achieve ? Playable PVP which would be fun for MOST of the community, [snip] We seen how many people gathered to play a TEST vengeance campaign ZOS gave us, and its literally an incredible SHAME for this games overall PVP, that even many veteran players had more fun playing such campaign instead of normal ones, while it was just SIMPLIFIED DUMB TEST without literally anything included, just bad simplified test skill lines ment just for performance test. This test showed how many people COULD be playing PVP, if it COULD be actually playable.

I will put all my suggestion here below, and i would be happy if people actually try to be constructive, adding their own suggestions what could be changed for the better. At first, as most important thing to mention, i dont want whole cyrodil to be changed, i suggest to keep the old cyro as well as creating new campaign for the rest of the community. For those who dont like the current state of old content. While also i suggest some other things to be changed OVERALLY in the game.

Lets start what i would change OVERALLY in the games PVP for now:

1. Balancing sorc class by changing ward to scale ONLY with HP and taking heal from its morph, changing it for something else OR making it a much weaker HoT. Also either taking stun from streak giving rather slow to people hit than stun them, OR increasing its cost back to +50% for any consecutive.
2. Removing RoA and rallying cry sets from the game, since those are only incredibly boosting ballgroups making overall PVP just worse than it already is.
3. Giving a cost on jumping cos its also just making this games PVP just worse, OR disabling ANY attacks, normal attacks/spells while in the air. If cost, i suggest to give it a cost like:
First jump: FREE OF COST
Second: 500 stamina
Third and any consecutive +33%
This is because its making PVP easier for range players, non-stop throwing off attackers aim with NO COST, possibly dodging some spells/dmg by this, while they can keep casting which is just nonsense, giving advantage for mostly range players, and also its even annoying and it looks just dumb. Simply another bad game mechanics. Another, and probably even more imporant thing about it, is positioning and tactics. Now people can get to some rocks/hills/cliffs etc. by bad position, they get there with no way to especape, BUT without any cost on jumping, they can jump like crazy getting away at NO COST. People should be punished for bad gameplay/positioning. Another thing about it, is running away, JESUS how many times ive witnessed how someone was jumping like crazy between some textures/rocks or something and been healing himself, while attackers were unable to get to him. This bad mechanics is especially boosting sorc class for obvious reasons.
4. Battlegrounds should also be changed. Level below 50 should have all set and food bonuses BLOCKED, as well as whole world and guild skill lines, to prevent veteran player noobs to play there, making it unfair and impossible to play for new people and ruining their PVP experience right from the start. With this i just suggest to give a bonus of max stats + 2k stam/mag and +3k HP, and also increasing rss recovery by +300 there.
Fow veteran BGs i would change just matchmaking, dividing it to be either completely random, or completely team assembled. I mean if someone joins as random solo player, he should play against ONLY other solo random players. And if someone joins with a group, he should get ONLY into a match with other grouped players.
5. Healing and shielding overally reduced by another 15%, making it 70% reduction. And also IF its possible, then reduce healing/shielding of other players by another 10% atop of overall 70% reducing crazy crosshealing which again helps only ballgroups and no one else. That would also make solo PVP much more playable finally.

Thats everything for overall changes. Now what to do for the whole community, to give EVERYONE a chance to play a balanced pure PVP. As i suggested before, making a new campaign could possibly save this games PVP. It should be simplified and playable for even new players, while im sure even MANY veterans would rather play such campaign. I suggest creating new campaign like this:

1. Weapon and armor skill lines and race passives to be active
2. Food buffs to be active
3. Changing max stats to 2/3 ( maybe not necessary, should be tested)
4. Changing builds to provide their armor, enchants and trait bonuses, but keeping ALL SET bonuses BLOCKED
5. Class skill lines passives to be BLOCKED
6. Champion points to be BLOCKED
7.Mundus stone bonuses to be active
8. Guild and world skill lines to be BLOCKED
9. Increasing reviving speed by 33%
10. Increasing mount speed to maximum for EVERYONE there for obvious reasons
11. Changing joining of players not by their alliance, but by which alliance would need more players, to keep fights balanced in numbers
12. Forward camps to be UNLIMITED

Such campaign would be pure, easy to play for everyone. While it would probably also solve the ballgroups problem, cos without set bonuses and few other group buffs, ballgroups would still have advantage, but they wont be unkillable anymore !

This game desperaly needs this. But sure, only time could show if it would work, but even here on forum, many people would like to have something like this, even veterans, so its definitely worth to try it at least.

In advance, please post only constructive comments, means either say: *AGREE completely* / *AGREE but i would change* / *AGREE but i would add*
OR if you dont disagree: *DISAGREE completely cos (something)* or *DISAGREE cos (something)*.
[snip]

I will read comments, but i wont react anymore, i have enough. I will only react the same way i mentioned above, as AGREE with this, or DISAGREE with that. I have enough of arguing and **** talks.

Thank you for reading guys as well as for your support of this in advance, and i wish you fun and good luck playing PVP if it least SOME of those suggestions comes true, and EVEN MORE luck, if nothing happens (which is possible), cos youll need a LOT of luck playing this games PVP if it stays in current state, as well as for keeping your sanity

.

[edited for baiting]

soelslaev · April 5

My constructive comment is about expository writing.

You should delete your first six paragraphs. In them, you rant and insult, which makes people not want to heed your advice. Worse, you delay the crux of your message too long.

Also, delete the last five paragraphs for similar reasons. You should let your ideas be judged on their own merit. Making pleas to regarding your ideas causes the opposite effect.

valenwood_vegan · April 5

Indeed, I suggest providing clear and detailed feedback to zos, directly, rather than losing focus and spending most of a post lashing out at other players - it's important to remember that they do not determine the future of eso (any more than any of us).

I agree with the suggestion of presenting your ideas and letting them stand on their own - and perhaps direct feedback might be a better way to do that. Whatever the point was, it will likely get lost in all the other TL;DR stuff, which will likely serve only to invite argument.

The post title was interesting, but I read a couple paragraphs and it didn't match the title and I went on to something else. A dev reading the forums for feedback would likely react similarly, as they have a LOT of feedback to look at and limited time.

AngryNecro · April 7

Wallar333 wrote: »

.

Strangely, do you like the game, but you don't like almost the entire combat system? In my opinion, with this attitude, it's better just not to play pvp xD.
For example, I'm ready to leave the game just because of insane rules of behavior, but definitely not because of pvp. On the other hand, if pvp continues go to more casual I will definitely leave. It's more a question of the lack of alternatives for BG at now, no realy good alternative in other game.
ZOS here don't like such questions, but how long, many and successfully have you been playing pvp? It's just that these drastic changes are mostly wanted by those who not werry good in pvp.

as a player who, in the absence of bans, occupies the top 10 4x4 BG, I can say that literally every item you propose is simply unviable and will break the remaining balance and kill the uniqueness of TESO pvp. and your request for constructive comments? Suggestions are not constructive, how can comments be constructive? xD

but it's really funny about jumping.

Heren · April 7

Wallar333 wrote: »

[...] and also its even annoying and it looks just dumb. [...]

All right I'm convinced by this argument, where do I need to sign ?

Credible_Joe · April 8

soelslaev wrote: »

My constructive comment is about expository writing.

You should delete your first six paragraphs. In them, you rant and insult, which makes people not want to heed your advice. Worse, you delay the crux of your message too long.

Also, delete the last five paragraphs for similar reasons. You should let your ideas be judged on their own merit. Making pleas to regarding your ideas causes the opposite effect.

I learned the hard way (and not quickly either), that the more filler you add beside the point you want to convey in any topic, the more likely any response will be to the filler and not to what you're actually writing or suggesting.

El_Borracho · April 8

Lost me at "Nerf Rallying Cry."

There are two constants in PVP: (1) Lag, and (2) People will always be furious with every change in PVP. ZOS could fix the lag. They can't do anything about the second one

ZOS_Icy · April 8

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Major_Mangle · April 9

Quoted post has been removed

As long as BG leaderboards has an accumulative score system it will never depict proper "skill", only the amount of time you invest. Yes it's significantly easier in most cases to end up on the leaderboards playing as a healer since you can abuse the bugged crit heal medals, but that only means you've to spend more time as a non healer. Would be a different story if you lost points/score when losing matches or if ZOS had implemented a proper ranking/mmr system (hell, even the half baked ToT system would've worked as a temporary version) based on multiplw factors.

AngryNecro · April 9

Major_Mangle wrote: »

As long as BG leaderboards has an accumulative score system it will never depict proper "skill", only the amount of time you invest. Yes it's significantly easier in most cases to end up on the leaderboards playing as a healer since you can abuse the bugged crit heal medals, but that only means you've to spend more time as a non healer. Would be a different story if you lost points/score when losing matches or if ZOS had implemented a proper ranking/mmr system (hell, even the half baked ToT system would've worked as a temporary version) based on multiplw factors.

and where is the non-accumulative system and what should it look like in your opinion? If you have high scores per battle, you don't have to play much. To stay in the top 30, it was enough to have 8 fights

TyrantNikolai · April 9

1. Agreed
2. Agreed but make rally a self buff not group
3. It is dumb to watch but not necessarily a good idea to nerf jumping
4. They need to improve matchmaking and better map design
5. nerf cross heals/stacking

As for your campaign ideas I think your missing the point on what makes pvp enjoyable thats customization on builds. All group affecting sets must go in my opinion and get rid of aoe pulls(or at least have them target cc immune) since single target pulls already exist and update sets to be viable for solo players that way more builds to make=more enjoyable.

this message has been preapproved by kimjongzos (lol don't censor me again)

Udrath · April 9

The PvP in this game was a lot better I think before the introduction of hybrid and a whole lot of broken sets after broken sets that followed. And everyone would buy the chapters to acquire the new meta sets.

Everything before greymoore and before the second half of blackwood was very fun. The only thing people wanted was better performance, because the PVP was actually good and each class had very good pros and cons, while also each class had more choices on their builds than today. You couldn’t really have everything like today, but you could play to your classes strengths and do very well.

Stamina and magicka oriented classes played totally different from one another and most sets were designed for either magicka or stamina as well. For example there would be just spell power on gear, and never both weapon and spell, etc etc. Also classes weren’t bloated with tons of buffs and burst heals, or able utilise any skill they wanted because abilities scaled off either magicka, stamina, health, or spell damage or weapon damage — not whatever was highest.

The lag was just absolutely terrible and that was the only major issue before those chapters in my opinion.

Wallar333 · April 10

TyrantNikolai wrote: »

1. Agreed
2. Agreed but make rally a self buff not group
3. It is dumb to watch but not necessarily a good idea to nerf jumping
4. They need to improve matchmaking and better map design
5. nerf cross heals/stacking

As for your campaign ideas I think your missing the point on what makes pvp enjoyable thats customization on builds. All group affecting sets must go in my opinion and get rid of aoe pulls(or at least have them target cc immune) since single target pulls already exist and update sets to be viable for solo players that way more builds to make=more enjoyable.

this message has been preapproved by kimjongzos (lol don't censor me again)

Sure, customization of builds is nice, i like it too, but im not gonna change that, so im a bit confused what you mean. Builds are literally more than 50% of the whole problem of this game, cos this game is simply unbalanced overally, with unbalanced builds atop of it, its literally a disaster we can see in this games PVP. And also it gives CRAZY advantage to veterans, preventing MOST of new players to play PVP here.
This customization also makes not much sense to honest, cos like 80% of the sets in this game are literally completely useless in both PVP / PVE which leads most people to wear usually the same sets, only difference many times is just class/game knowledge/skill and luck.

I dont want to remove sets from the game tho, i said that there should be campaign with set bonuses BLOCKED, which could make PVP much more enjoyable/playable for ANYONE. While those who likes current mechanics WITH set bonuses, could keep playing old cyro, i dont see any problem about it. Everyone could be playing what he likes, no one would be forced to play with/without set bonuses. Blocking set bonuses could fix HALF of the whole PVP problem, while it would also make this games PVP playable for ANYONE, less experienced/new players included. And im saying this, as a player with multiple PVP builds, i would also rather play WITHOUT them, from big part cos i want to play a pure fair-play PVP which is alive, not this current dying nonsense. I dont like having ANY advantage against other players, cos only then you can see who is a really good player.
This games PVP stays dead as it is for years, if ZOS wont make a change, and new campaign similar as im suggesting could be such a change, especially cos it would keep old cyro as it is, for those who like it this way, which i dont understand, but its their choice.

ZOS is *balancing* this games PVP for around a decade now, with results which we can see in this games PVP which is getting worse and worse and still less and less people are playing it. *FIXING* old cyro is a waste of time, if ZOS didnt managed to fix it till now, i really dont expect them to *fix* it now. So this game SHOULD look for a different path also, not keeping on the same one, trying to save the situation. ALSO ballgroups would just cry if ZOS takes their group buffs/heals/shields and makes them VULNERABLE againt others, so it would be easier to keep old cyro for them, keeping them happy playing their own **** there, while the rest of the community could play something they could like. And community WANTS something else than old cyro, as we can see around a feedback about vengeance, which was just performance test lol.
Even dumb performance test has bested current PVP mechanics, that shows exactly how much in deep **** it is. And something should be done about it.

I have no problem with group CCs/dmg, if its balanced, its part of MMORPGs. My problem is rather about defence than offence in this game. Cos this healing/shielding is CRAZY and in combination with group buffs, its just game breaking.

And as for jumping, i still insist on that one, cos it makes no sense in a game like this. This game needs to improve tactical gameplay, which is literally just absent in this game now. Even positioning wont make much difference here now, especially for sorc class, streaking/dodging/jumping through whole map for a comical costs.
BLOCKING attacks/casting while in the air could fix at least PVP advantage aspect of it, but it wont change tactical/positioning problem still. But i would agree with compromise about just blocking attacks/casting while in the air.

Xarc · April 10

AngryNecro wrote: »

Wallar333 wrote: »

.

[...] in the absence of bans, occupies the top 10 4x4 BG, I can say that literally every item you propose is simply unviable and will break the remaining balance and kill the uniqueness of TESO pvp. and your request for constructive comments? Suggestions are not constructive, how can comments be constructive? xD

Just to say i like the way you quoted him

btw I agree
(Maybe we necros understand each other.)

Wallar333 · April 10

Xarc wrote: »

AngryNecro wrote: »

Wallar333 wrote: »

.

[...] in the absence of bans, occupies the top 10 4x4 BG, I can say that literally every item you propose is simply unviable and will break the remaining balance and kill the uniqueness of TESO pvp. and your request for constructive comments? Suggestions are not constructive, how can comments be constructive? xD

Just to say i like the way you quoted him

btw I agree
(Maybe we necros understand each other.)

Which way you mean ? Not understanding what a constructive discussion/comment is ?

... Hes saying about beeing *pro pvp player* giving more worth to his words cos hes one of probably not even 1 000 players who play PVP a bit actively in this game, and hes in some scoreboard which tells literally nothing, its only about time spent, not much about good gameplay.

As for his remaining balance, thats verry funny, cos im only doing/writing this cos i want this games PVP balanced. I gave examples what should be changed and why, constructive comment from his side should be about exact points, and not this kind of nonsense.
Also TESOs PVP is as uniqe now, that people are running away from it, which is obvious enough by just reading threads/comments here on forum. Even many veteran players who are playing this game for many years dont like this *uniqe* PVP.

[snip]

Edited for Baiting

CameraBeardThePirate · April 11

AngryNecro wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

As long as BG leaderboards has an accumulative score system it will never depict proper "skill", only the amount of time you invest. Yes it's significantly easier in most cases to end up on the leaderboards playing as a healer since you can abuse the bugged crit heal medals, but that only means you've to spend more time as a non healer. Would be a different story if you lost points/score when losing matches or if ZOS had implemented a proper ranking/mmr system (hell, even the half baked ToT system would've worked as a temporary version) based on multiplw factors.

and where is the non-accumulative system and what should it look like in your opinion? If you have high scores per battle, you don't have to play much. To stay in the top 30, it was enough to have 8 fights

Basically any game with competitive matchmaking out there should've been the template. Most games, your score goes up if you win and down if you lose. Individual performance then usually impacts the magnitude of said change; if you lose, but you played the best game of your life, your score doesn't go down a lot. If you win, but played really poorly, your score only goes up a little. This prevents people from just being "carried" to higher ranks by teammates, and ensures that skilled players will still have an easier time going up in ranks even if they continue to have bad luck with teammates. Even Tales of Tribute uses a similar system to this.

On the flipside, in ESO you can literally lose a game in blowout fashion but still leapfrog the very people that just whooped you on the leaderboard. In fact, the way medals are calculated this is the case quite often. That's asinine.

AngryNecro · April 12

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Basically any game with competitive matchmaking out there should've been the template. Most games, your score goes up if you win and down if you lose. Individual performance then usually impacts the magnitude of said change; if you lose, but you played the best game of your life, your score doesn't go down a lot. If you win, but played really poorly, your score only goes up a little. This prevents people from just being "carried" to higher ranks by teammates, and ensures that skilled players will still have an easier time going up in ranks even if they continue to have bad luck with teammates. Even Tales of Tribute uses a similar system to this.

On the flipside, in ESO you can literally lose a game in blowout fashion but still leapfrog the very people that just whooped you on the leaderboard. In fact, the way medals are calculated this is the case quite often. That's asinine.

oh you about broken score tablet. that i agree. But it's your choice to use the broken score table or play like a normal gladiator.

Elendir2am · April 12

Hey @ZOS, can you explain to my, why practically everyone and their grandma can fly in Cyro this days. Isn't already time to do anything with this cheaters who hacked their physics or do you waiting for PvP to be totally death?

From year to year, numbers of hacker who can fly (no comment on other form of cheating) is rapidly increasing. With it AvA in Cyro is dying. How many players you lost, because you ignored this hackers? Practically anybody I knock out of tower this days can fly and jump back, because you are ignoring this cheatteting.

It wasn't so extreme few years ago, but your ignorance led to this extreme state we have today. So maby you could do finaly somthing about it.

Rhodghard · April 13

If only ZOS could think and satisfy everyone, they would do the following:

Not make three practically identical campaigns (Greyhost, Blackreach, and Ravenwatch)

-Grayhost (campaign with CP and proc sets activated) fun for group balls

-Blackreach (campaign with CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

-Ravenwatch (campaign with NO CP and NO proc sets) not fun for group balls, and fun for the vast majority of people

Pin this comment because this is what people really want, whether you're new or veteran to this game. These guys have been doing PvP for 10 years, and yes, group balls are boring.