Does skill matter in PvP?

Overamera · October 2023

No, just procs and meta classes.

LunaFlora · October 2023

yea it does matter.
not every player is gonna be able to kill you with the meta classes or proc sets

Kikazaru · October 2023

What would be your "Skills matter" build?

i11ionward · October 2023

Yes, skill is the most important thing in pvp. Don't listen to anyone who says procs are playing instead of you. You have to maintain the buff, block, dodge, make good moves, know when to go on defense or attack, know how to do combos, watch the proc timers - all this is a skill. By having the meta build you will only receive the haves meta build.

ArchMikem · October 2023

It really doesn't. You could know the ins and outs of the combat mechanics, but success always boils down to who has better numbers.

Soarora · October 2023

If you don’t like procs… play the no-proc campaign.

OtarTheMad · October 2023

It really depends I think. Do meta sets and classes make it easier for some? Yeah, maybe but I also think that a more skilled player who isn’t wearing meta and maybe even is on a class that people say “suck” could beat that.

ZOS_Icy · October 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

TechMaybeHic · October 2023

Seems like a bit of a rage post here, but they've gone out of their way to try to reduce skill gaps in this game. Simple OP classes and procs are a leveling factor used to that end.

What you are left with is very little room to win against greater numbers short of using LOS to really get your enemies over-extended to even it up more than actually fight outnumbered. Or ball up.

1v1 really has no bearing on the game modes so if you want to do that, you have to run meta. If you just want to run your own build, well; get over the dogma that you're going to just outnumber and even zerg others. And you will get outnumbered and zerged yourself.

That's the game now.

baselesschart · October 2023

It can but it also doesn't in some situations. If you're wearing off meta gear and fighting a fairly average or mediocre player who is using master dw, vateshran, dragon's appetite, they have a good shot at killing you even if you yourself are a really good player.

Also someone who is playing a better class who is worse than you could still kill you if you're playing a bad class.

Waterdesk · October 2023

It does in below 50 PvP. Probably not so much outside of that.

TechMaybeHic · October 2023

Waterdesk wrote: »

It does in below 50 PvP. Probably not so much outside of that.

Yeah, I don't think I'd take credit for more skill in sub 50. More actual playtime cheapens it, as well as twinking. I wouldn't go there

mariuszeb17_ESO5 · October 2023

Kikazaru wrote: »

What would be your "Skills matter" build?

One, in which you heal and make the damage yourself, not procsets make this for you.

Rhaegar75 · October 2023

Absolutely.

Take a BG in the high MMR bracket: some players will perform well no matter whether they stick to the meta or if they use less mainstream set-ups.

Fight someone like Decimus or Fluffy, just to mention 2, and they will perform well no matter what they use….it’s because they are skilled

Veinblood1965 · October 2023

Must, not, reply, dang it I did anyways.

OBJnoob · October 2023

Skill matters and it always will.

The thing is though that knowing how/when to block or dodge or having a decent PvP rotation isn't the end of it. People want it to be but ultimately everybody that cares got good at that years ago.

What's supposed to supplement that skill is the secondary skill of gearing your character well, filling out needed passives, and understanding what skills are most effective.

This secondary skill largely doesn't exist anymore due to the proliferation of information and well, just how old the game is.

So ultimately you've just got a bunch of players with OP heals, cuz they're built properly, knowing when to block and stalemating. And most of them will come to realize they too need to be carried by the currently overperforming arena weapons and proc sets in order to supplement their damage with enough pressure to actually secure a kill.

But the tools to do this are widely known. So voila, everybody is wearing it. And we accuse them of not having skill but honestly it isn't their fault they're probably decent players (only looked down upon by egos that got killed,) and just doing what works.

When the procs that need to be nerfed get nerfed things will be better. Someone will find out a new OP combo and then everybody will start using that. Ironically everybody will also start complaining again for whatever that is to get nerfed because it's removing skill.

The level of skill required to play the game never changes much. Elite players just don't like good players having elite gear. There's nothing wrong with procs. They just need to be balanced to open up diversity. When you see a truly diverse character running amuck securing kills and you've never done it that way before... Then you say "that is skill." But I reckon they push the B button the same way I do.

Ultimately, if two people are of similar skill, you're gonna want higher stats. It's just the way it is. A well built character will beat a poorly built one. That doesn't mean skill doesn't exist. It means you need more than one skill.

Oblivion_Protocol · October 2023

There’s this weird notion about the game that always comes up, which can best be summarized by a single phrase that I’ve heard at least a thousand times now: “proc sets play the game for you”. As if these sets magically auto-pilot your character to victory in every single fight.

Do you know how many people come at me with a Master’s Dual Wield/Maarselok/Vateshran cheese build every time I PvP? At least five. And of those five, I bury three of them every time. People genuinely put on this gear and think they can face roll their keyboard to win, and that couldn’t be further from the truth.

You have to know how to roll dodge. You have to know when to disengage. You have to manage your buffs while mitigating your debuffs. You have to take advantage of burst windows. You have to survive ball groups. Know what all of those things have in common?

None of them are skills that involve proc sets.

ESO players think that proc sets have replaced skill, when all they did was lower the skill ceiling. That can be problematic, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not the same as an instant win button that negates the need for skills.

Proc sets are good. But they don’t fully replace skill. In other words, you still have to play the game 😛

Brakkish · October 2023

If you compare apples to apples sure, skill absolutely matters. (Assuming your definition of "skill" aligns with everyone elses - which in itself is doubtful; but that's another thread, another time)

Two players same exact build square off:

Player A has 10 hours BG experience.
Player B has 1000 hours BG experience.

Outcome: Player B - irrefutable.

Anything else beyond that scenario is apples to oranges and only serves as opinion; and a long thread going nowhere.
Topic might have been better as "Hey, does anyone else feel frustrated when (insert something here)."

Moothos · October 2023

Of course skill matters. ESO is an MMORPG though so class and build will always be very important too. It isn't a properly competitive pvp game.

Also, skill matters less now because of sets that go beyond stat boosting and instead actively do things for the wearer, such as mara's balm which heals and purges negative effects for the wearer without requiring any active input from the wearer. Another example is crimson twilight, which deals damage and heals the wearer for just taking damage.

StaticWave · October 2023

Of course skills matter lol. Have 2 players in the same build fight and the one with better mechanical skill and game knowledge wins.

Now you can make an argument that procs help bridge the gap between a more skilled and a less skilled player, but that also depends entirely on how large that gap is. If I'm low diffing someone without procs, he isn't going to win even with procs. However if I'm mid-diffing someone without procs and he starts slotting them then it will be a high-diff fight or I might even lose.

Udrath · October 2023

Skill kinda doesn’t exist anymore since animation cancelling for ultimates stopped being a thing. Example is like heavy attacking cancelling a dawnbreaker (meaning your heavy attack and dawnbreaker hit at the same time) as shalks go off, and barswapping spin to win just as the stun registered, and you haven’t even got the notification to break free yet. All happens in like a second and half. Too do that consistently while under pressure id say takes skill and some learning

Now a days skill just really comes down to knowing when and who to burst with basic rotation and when to race against time/los/how to kite. Damage is so high now you can’t really stick in a fight too long without kiting a bit when outnumbered so I don’t blame them. The days of blocking abilities and dodging while holding ground don’t matter since they’re not as reliable as LOSing. Too many DOTs and beams, strong AOE ultimates besides dawn breaker and dragon leap now.

xDeusEJRx · October 2023

Skill always matters in games, but some builds allow you to bridge that gap immensely.

Juju_beans · October 2023

Of course skill matters. You could have the BIS gear all slotted out but if you have no clue what you are doing you will die.

OBJnoob · October 2023

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Skill always matters in games, but some builds allow you to bridge that gap immensely.

I disagree. You may bridge the gap towards a better player in lesser gear but you won't bridge the gap against a better player in the same gear. And that's really all the matters. Everything else belongs in a different conversation about balancing.

For example NB is really strong right now. If I'm on my sorc a worse player, on a NB, might kill me. So does that mean NB is bridging the gap between skill levels? No. Because I could always just hop on a NB.

TechMaybeHic · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Skill always matters in games, but some builds allow you to bridge that gap immensely.

I disagree. You may bridge the gap towards a better player in lesser gear but you won't bridge the gap against a better player in the same gear. And that's really all the matters. Everything else belongs in a different conversation about balancing.

For example NB is really strong right now. If I'm on my sorc a worse player, on a NB, might kill me. So does that mean NB is bridging the gap between skill levels? No. Because I could always just hop on a NB.

Yeah but whike you are chosing your sorc; what did playing NB do for the other player?

Ironically; I ran my NB last night for a couple hours. I am unquestionable better on my templar than I am on a NB but as I played longer, I feel I was staying alive longer and delivering bigger combos while knowing I'm missing opportunity still and not playing as fast

Skill or familiarity with one class does not directly translate to another class, yet the class can still cary

tincanman · October 2023

ping.

and d-swing positional desynch.

Those two are fundamental to winning pvp fights - nothing beats on you as badly as blocking clearly well out of range of d-swing but, miraculously, still being smitten with great smiteness (yes, it is a word, honest...) several times with a 2H....then noticing the lag spike at 800+

But lowest ping, as my brother says, at point of contact with all else being equal is always the determinant of winner.

OBJnoob · October 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Skill always matters in games, but some builds allow you to bridge that gap immensely.

I disagree. You may bridge the gap towards a better player in lesser gear but you won't bridge the gap against a better player in the same gear. And that's really all the matters. Everything else belongs in a different conversation about balancing.

For example NB is really strong right now. If I'm on my sorc a worse player, on a NB, might kill me. So does that mean NB is bridging the gap between skill levels? No. Because I could always just hop on a NB.

Yeah but whike you are chosing your sorc; what did playing NB do for the other player?

Ironically; I ran my NB last night for a couple hours. I am unquestionable better on my templar than I am on a NB but as I played longer, I feel I was staying alive longer and delivering bigger combos while knowing I'm missing opportunity still and not playing as fast

Skill or familiarity with one class does not directly translate to another class, yet the class can still cary

I feel like in your haste to respond you didn't give my words much thought. I can basically reply to you by saying the same thing I've already said.

Okay so maybe NB is a carry class. Okay so maybe Vate Destro is a carry weapon. But if I'm a better player and equip Vate Destro then I can beat a worse player using the same thing. Likewise, if I switch to NB then I can kill a worse nightblade.

Nightblade bridging the gap to sorcerer, or whatever, is not the same as skill no longer mattering.

I choose to play sorc because it's what I find fun at the moment. If ever I actually wanted to compete then I'd play something else.

What I would never do is intentionally handicap myself and then complain about being beaten. If you know you were disadvantaged then you're supposed to take solace in that fact. It's not supposed to add on to the complaint. If you're more interested in being ultra competitive than in having fun then I don't see why you aren't using the good stuff.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 2023

Here's the thing.

Are there braindead proc combos that play the game for you? Yes.

Does that mean a lesser skilled opponent will mop the floor with higher skilled opponents? No.

The skill ceiling in this game is still incredibly high, especially when it comes to survivability. A higher skilled player can survive much more than a lesser skilled player. Movement, block weaving, blocking certain ultimates on reaction, positioning, and buff management all make a huge difference. A player that aces all of the above wearing a full stat setup will still wreak havoc in a setting like BGs or small scale PvP.

However, there are some proc setups that can absolutely carry you to a win in a 1v1 or Xv1 situation.

SandandStars · October 2023

it matters more if youre not dk or nb

IZZEFlameLash · October 2023

Grab a Sorc, put on the 'super OP unique, off-meta' build of Maarselok, Coil, Master's DW, Vate and whatever you want for the 5 pieces. Proceed to watch the person get melted if they cannot heal even for a second whether it be due to lag or your Streak. Or you just used Thriving Chaos. Only skill required is for you to be able to press the buttons in right sequences like you are parsing on a PvE boss for your trial tryouts. Oh and yeah, don't forget to Streak away if you weren't able to kill the person immediately. Then return with full health and resource to try again.

Very skilled gameplay indeed.

TechMaybeHic · October 2023

I think we all (those of us who come to the forum) worry about it way too much.

Yes skill matters, if you use the same OP stuff your enemy is using.

No, it doesn't matter; if there is an overwhelming lean between enemies in one direction for OP gear and abilities, or numbers.

The main thing here is balance is what really doesn't matter to ZOS, and really; to their target audience that are more concerned with lore and aesthetics.

Basically, those of us who PvP who come here are going to the Miller Lite distributor and complaining there are no stouts.