Should we be able to buy furnishing mats at a vendor?

Somber97866 · February 2023

I think we should be able to! One to lower the outrageous prices and second to stimulate more gameplay through building of more housing items for construction of bigger and better housing projects.

[edited for name in thread title]

Paralyse · February 2023

The game does not benefit from removing more ways for players to earn a living and make gold.

For those players who don't want to sell Crowns, sell carry runs, farm writs, or grind out drops for popular set items, node farming for Perfect Roe and to refine for yellow mats and furnishing mats is an important source of income.

One thing that is good to remember is that in many situations, buying pre-crafted furniture can be a lot cheaper than crafting it yourself. I see lots of decent affordable furniture in popular styles posted on the traders fairly often for less than it would cost to make it yourself, especially if you have to buy the pattern first.

Northwold · February 2023

Yes I think we should and I'm not sure endgame trading players and how much gold they can make should *ever* be a consideration, because they simply aren't the majority of players. If anything, the distorted way the trading economy works and excludes players who do not want to use guild traders is simply doing ZOS's monetisation work for them, but people don't seem to see that side of things.

On which note, it's pretty clear that a lot of the design of furnishing recipes, in addition to pushing people to spend very long periods of time playing and to keep coming back, has to do with pushing people subtly (Ivory Clasps, ten thousand mundane runes to make a small bowl) and not so subtly (Ancient Sandstone) to the Crown Store. It's a form of monetisation and sometimes rather glaring. So will we ever actually *get* crafting mats at normal merchants? Unlikely.

kargen27 · February 2023

Northwold wrote: »

Yes I think we should and I'm not sure endgame trading players and how much gold they can make should *ever* be a consideration, because they simply aren't the majority of players. If anything, the distorted way the trading economy works and excludes players who do not want to use guild traders is simply doing ZOS's monetisation work for them, but people don't seem to see that side of things.

On which note, it's pretty clear that a lot of the design of furnishing recipes has to do with pushing people subtly (Ivory Clasps) and not so subtly (Ancient Sandstone) to the Crown Store. It's a form of monetisation and sometimes rather glaring. So will we ever actually *get* crafting mats at normal merchants? Unlikely.

I see it as more an effort to get players to participate in a variety of activities and repeat those activities. It is a way to get players to return to older zones.
Why should players who like and participate in the trading system not be considered when changes are made? They have a niche just like trial runners and PvPrs have and all should be considered.

Northwold · February 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Yes I think we should and I'm not sure endgame trading players and how much gold they can make should *ever* be a consideration, because they simply aren't the majority of players. If anything, the distorted way the trading economy works and excludes players who do not want to use guild traders is simply doing ZOS's monetisation work for them, but people don't seem to see that side of things.

On which note, it's pretty clear that a lot of the design of furnishing recipes has to do with pushing people subtly (Ivory Clasps) and not so subtly (Ancient Sandstone) to the Crown Store. It's a form of monetisation and sometimes rather glaring. So will we ever actually *get* crafting mats at normal merchants? Unlikely.

I see it as more an effort to get players to participate in a variety of activities and repeat those activities. It is a way to get players to return to older zones.
Why should players who like and participate in the trading system not be considered when changes are made? They have a niche just like trial runners and PvPrs have and all should be considered.

I don't think they shouldn't be considered *at all*. The problem is that in these forums, given the very high number of participants who play ESO a *lot* and have done so for a *very* long time, you'd think they were the only players out there, the *only* people whose experience should matter, and that every change in the game that could damage their play style should be blocked -- no matter how much it would make the game more enjoyable for pretty much everyone else (multiple threads even today on seemingly unrelated topics have all derailed into "but what about my gold?" laments). It is very much a niche.

Separately, but related, there is a fundamental problem with the trading system that keeps an awful lot of players completely divorced from it, namely that selling is gated behind membership of a player controlled guild. That point gets dismissed here but it is a real point and a problem with the way the game has been designed that affects all sorts of other activities.

I don't want to go into that here as it will derail the thread, which is about furnishing materials, but people who don't want to touch the current trading system with a bargepole run into problems all over the place, for example in not having enough gold to buy furnishing mats at current prices in the volumes required to fill houses. If you can't sell, it approaches impossible to keep up with guild trader pricing, especially on PC. But, look yonder! A Crown Store!

BlueRaven · February 2023

I don’t think we need a vendor, but I would be ok if surveys dropped furnishing mats.

tincanman · February 2023

Somber97866 wrote: »

I think we should be able to! One to lower the outrageous prices and second to stimulate more gameplay through building of more housing items for construction of bigger and better housing projects.

Price aren't anywhere near outrageous if you farm them for yourself.

Not against the idea as such but these kind of games are, unfortunately, predicated on doing a bunch of other stuff first you maybe don't like as much as the principle activity you really enjoy. I don't really see much chance of a shift in that paradigm.

Grizzbeorn · February 2023

Who is Matt?

Paralyse · February 2023

Presumably Matt Firor

Paralyse · February 2023

Also wanted to add that OP might be forgetting that a boom in popularity of housing (e.g. new furniture styles or patterns, new houses for sale) will cause other prices to rise as demand increases, so even if you could purchase furniture mats from a vendor, the cost savings will eventually be offset by a steady rise in the price of more desirable furnishing patterns, especially those which were already scarce (Dwarven, Ayleid, Velothi, etc.) or which are perennially popular (Elsweyr, Alinor) -- but at least patterns only have to be bought once, unlike mats.

In other words, let's say you put a vendor in game that sells Heartwood and Mundane Runes for 200 gold each, unlimited supply.
Great, you can now afford to craft a lot of things!

But wait -- so can everyone else. And with all the new houses and furnishings being added, people are going to need to buy patterns to craft those things. So now there's a lot more people competing to purchase those patterns from traders -- sellers will be able to get much more gold than they were previously asking, so prices will go up. This is not a problem for patterns you already own, but it is a problem for the ones you don't own, and some of those patterns are VERY limited in their supply.

Worse, there's absolutely nothing stopping ZOS from deciding to greatly increase the mats needed to craft patterns in the future. They could decide to make a pattern take 30 Heartwood instead of 5, etc. This is actually quite plausible since a vendor selling furnishing mats would be an effective gold sink and ZOS is always looking for effective gold sinks.

tl;dr much cheaper mats = much more expensive patterns

spartaxoxo · February 2023

Yes. Or some other way to increase the supply of mays. Some aspect of housing should be cheap. Housing is disproportionately asked to bear the weight of the market and grinding compared to other activities.

kargen27 · February 2023

Northwold wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Yes I think we should and I'm not sure endgame trading players and how much gold they can make should *ever* be a consideration, because they simply aren't the majority of players. If anything, the distorted way the trading economy works and excludes players who do not want to use guild traders is simply doing ZOS's monetisation work for them, but people don't seem to see that side of things.

On which note, it's pretty clear that a lot of the design of furnishing recipes has to do with pushing people subtly (Ivory Clasps) and not so subtly (Ancient Sandstone) to the Crown Store. It's a form of monetisation and sometimes rather glaring. So will we ever actually *get* crafting mats at normal merchants? Unlikely.

I see it as more an effort to get players to participate in a variety of activities and repeat those activities. It is a way to get players to return to older zones.
Why should players who like and participate in the trading system not be considered when changes are made? They have a niche just like trial runners and PvPrs have and all should be considered.

I don't think they shouldn't be considered *at all*. The problem is that in these forums, given the very high number of participants who play ESO a *lot* and have done so for a *very* long time, you'd think they were the only players out there, the *only* people whose experience should matter, and that every change in the game that could damage their play style should be blocked -- no matter how much it would make the game more enjoyable for pretty much everyone else (multiple threads even today on seemingly unrelated topics have all derailed into "but what about my gold?" laments). It is very much a niche.

Separately, but related, there is a fundamental problem with the trading system that keeps an awful lot of players completely divorced from it, namely that selling is gated behind membership of a player controlled guild. That point gets dismissed here but it is a real point and a problem with the way the game has been designed that affects all sorts of other activities.

I don't want to go into that here as it will derail the thread, which is about furnishing materials, but people who don't want to touch the current trading system with a bargepole run into problems all over the place, for example in not having enough gold to buy furnishing mats at current prices in the volumes required to fill houses. If you can't sell, it approaches impossible to keep up with guild trader pricing, especially on PC. But, look yonder! A Crown Store!

yes, a niche just like many others in the game. Entire guilds that are every bit as active as trial guilds are built around trading as end game. Of course they are defensive whenever someone suggests their preferred way to play the game be eliminated or nerfed.
Some players not wanting to participate in the current system is no need to wreck it. Not everybody enjoys every aspect of the game. Some will never touch PvP but we don't need to remove PvP from the game like those wanting a central location based economy want to remove the trade system we have now.
Sure you need to join a guild with a trader to really participate in the economy but same is true of trials. To really get into trials you need to join a trial guild. It is no different. Furnishing materials sell well for people willing to farm them. Those players out farming for materials help populate older zones. That is good for the game. Take away the incentive to farm materials and it can have a negative affect on more than just players gold.
Again I don't think "crown store" is being pushed by ZoS near as much as having players participate in a variety of types of play in many different zones is being pushed. The crown store is (my opinion) over priced because they would rather have players acquire those items in game.

Northwold · February 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Yes I think we should and I'm not sure endgame trading players and how much gold they can make should *ever* be a consideration, because they simply aren't the majority of players. If anything, the distorted way the trading economy works and excludes players who do not want to use guild traders is simply doing ZOS's monetisation work for them, but people don't seem to see that side of things.

On which note, it's pretty clear that a lot of the design of furnishing recipes has to do with pushing people subtly (Ivory Clasps) and not so subtly (Ancient Sandstone) to the Crown Store. It's a form of monetisation and sometimes rather glaring. So will we ever actually *get* crafting mats at normal merchants? Unlikely.

I see it as more an effort to get players to participate in a variety of activities and repeat those activities. It is a way to get players to return to older zones.
Why should players who like and participate in the trading system not be considered when changes are made? They have a niche just like trial runners and PvPrs have and all should be considered.

I don't think they shouldn't be considered *at all*. The problem is that in these forums, given the very high number of participants who play ESO a *lot* and have done so for a *very* long time, you'd think they were the only players out there, the *only* people whose experience should matter, and that every change in the game that could damage their play style should be blocked -- no matter how much it would make the game more enjoyable for pretty much everyone else (multiple threads even today on seemingly unrelated topics have all derailed into "but what about my gold?" laments). It is very much a niche.

Separately, but related, there is a fundamental problem with the trading system that keeps an awful lot of players completely divorced from it, namely that selling is gated behind membership of a player controlled guild. That point gets dismissed here but it is a real point and a problem with the way the game has been designed that affects all sorts of other activities.

I don't want to go into that here as it will derail the thread, which is about furnishing materials, but people who don't want to touch the current trading system with a bargepole run into problems all over the place, for example in not having enough gold to buy furnishing mats at current prices in the volumes required to fill houses. If you can't sell, it approaches impossible to keep up with guild trader pricing, especially on PC. But, look yonder! A Crown Store!

yes, a niche just like many others in the game. Entire guilds that are every bit as active as trial guilds are built around trading as end game. Of course they are defensive whenever someone suggests their preferred way to play the game be eliminated or nerfed.
Some players not wanting to participate in the current system is no need to wreck it. Not everybody enjoys every aspect of the game. Some will never touch PvP but we don't need to remove PvP from the game like those wanting a central location based economy want to remove the trade system we have now.
Sure you need to join a guild with a trader to really participate in the economy but same is true of trials. To really get into trials you need to join a trial guild. It is no different. Furnishing materials sell well for people willing to farm them. Those players out farming for materials help populate older zones. That is good for the game. Take away the incentive to farm materials and it can have a negative affect on more than just players gold.
Again I don't think "crown store" is being pushed by ZoS near as much as having players participate in a variety of types of play in many different zones is being pushed. The crown store is (my opinion) over priced because they would rather have players acquire those items in game.

As I say I don't want to derail this discussion but I will say that trading/the player economy is a fundamental system that links into essentially every other activity in pretty much every MMO out there. Trials are not. They are qualitatively different systems and there is no logic to such comparisons (not having a go at you, just such arguments get trotted out whenever this subject comes up and plain don't make sense).

And nothing prevents you from doing trials without guild membership, whereas for trading the alternative is, er, spamming zone chat until you get banned because you are locked out of the actual trading system.

ZOS *chose* to put the trading system behind guilds. That does not mean trading is equivalent to trials just because they made a fundamental system of an MMO moonlight as a minigame; it means ZOS made a really wrongheaded decision about a base system that *shouldn't* be a minigame and that now plain doesn't work for a large section of the player base.

kargen27 · February 2023

"And nothing prevents you from doing trials without guild membership, whereas for trading the alternative is, er, spamming zone chat until you get banned because you are locked out of the actual trading system."

As opposed to spamming zone chat for a pug? You aren't locked out of the trading system you are refusing to participate in a way that has the potential of generating more profits.

We aren't really hijacking the thread as the suggestion would have a great impact on trading making trading an important part of the discussion. Players put as much time and effort into being a top trader as do players competing for the leader boards.

Trials you start with the base normal trials and pugs work well for those. Then you can either chase DLC normal or vet base trials. Pugs get a little more iffy here. Eventually if you keep going down the trial path you will want to start doing vet DLCs and then hard mode runs. Those take more commitment. Usually a progression group is formed inside a guild and they work towards an end goal.
Trading starts with selling items to vendors. It goes from there to either zone chat or guild stores in social guilds to other guild members. As you progress down the trading path you might join a social guild that gets a trader occasionally or gets one off the beaten path. Then when you get to wanting to really take advantage of what the game has to offer for traders you join a guild that works together to maintain a high traffic trade location each week.

One takes as much time/effort as the other and there is a multitude of tiers to both running trials and trading so players at all levels can participate at a pace they are comfortable with. Entire guilds built around the trading system shows how much better this is than a boring central location.
A few people advocate time and again to get rid of a part of the game that so many people enjoy. That is why those that enjoy trading defend it so vehemently. Even in this thread the original post mentions as one of two goals changing the economy directly impacting those that enjoy the current system.
The 2nd goal mentioned I don't think will be realized if the change were made. I don't see how buying materials at a vendor would stimulate more gameplay.

Northwold · February 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

"And nothing prevents you from doing trials without guild membership, whereas for trading the alternative is, er, spamming zone chat until you get banned because you are locked out of the actual trading system."

As opposed to spamming zone chat for a pug? You aren't locked out of the trading system you are refusing to participate in a way that has the potential of generating more profits.

We aren't really hijacking the thread as the suggestion would have a great impact on trading making trading an important part of the discussion. Players put as much time and effort into being a top trader as do players competing for the leader boards.

Trials you start with the base normal trials and pugs work well for those. Then you can either chase DLC normal or vet base trials. Pugs get a little more iffy here. Eventually if you keep going down the trial path you will want to start doing vet DLCs and then hard mode runs. Those take more commitment. Usually a progression group is formed inside a guild and they work towards an end goal.
Trading starts with selling items to vendors. It goes from there to either zone chat or guild stores in social guilds to other guild members. As you progress down the trading path you might join a social guild that gets a trader occasionally or gets one off the beaten path. Then when you get to wanting to really take advantage of what the game has to offer for traders you join a guild that works together to maintain a high traffic trade location each week.

One takes as much time/effort as the other and there is a multitude of tiers to both running trials and trading so players at all levels can participate at a pace they are comfortable with. Entire guilds built around the trading system shows how much better this is than a boring central location.
A few people advocate time and again to get rid of a part of the game that so many people enjoy. That is why those that enjoy trading defend it so vehemently. Even in this thread the original post mentions as one of two goals changing the economy directly impacting those that enjoy the current system.
The 2nd goal mentioned I don't think will be realized if the change were made. I don't see how buying materials at a vendor would stimulate more gameplay.

Trading is a system that feeds into every gameplay aspect of the game. It affects pretty much every player (including when players decide not to use the system), from how they acquire gear, to food ingredients, to how long it takes them to craft a house or a weapon. Trials are not such a system. Very close to nothing changes for the rest of the game whether you do them or not.

At the end of the day, they are fundamentally different. One relates to substantially all gameplay activity. The other is an isolated *form of* gameplay activity. The comparison doesn't work.

DreamyLu · February 2023

I don't agree on OP's proposal.

As said in other threads already (sorry for the repeat), there are players who farm/collect mats, and players who don't want to do that and pay for the mats instead. One do the effort, the other don't but compensate by paying. It's a balance.
Usually, the mats with high prices are those that needs an extra effort or/and are hot mats due to whatever new sets. Fair enough, that's the result of a normal market economy based on demand.

Now don't forget that at any time, if you don't want to pay, you can start farming yourself and it will cost you nothing apart from your time.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

I don't think housing players should have been to be disproportionately drained of their coin to make the players that are making money off of them happy.

Items that make a good amount of money on traders should be the stuff that SHOULD be scarce for the health of the item, not just the pocket book of the trader.

And I say that as someone in a major trading guild.

Rare recipes, motifs, etc should be rare because having them rare gives the items value outside of just trading. People can go to others houses and be amazed at the all the neat furniture they didn't know about or is hard to find. Etc. Those are things that would be rare in pretty much any game.

The basic mats needed so that you cannot even make a common chair without spending significant coin should not be expensive. The basics are cheap for pretty much every other activity in this game. It is not fair to housing players that basic mats aren't the same for them. We're not talking the rare style materials and the like. We're talking about the basic ingredients, like mundane runes. Mundane runes should be, you know, mundane. Ordinary. Not expensive because they aren't rare.

The game itself treats these items like they are common and demands large quantities of them, but the player isn't actually given them commonly.

Jhava · February 2023

DreamyLu wrote: »

I don't agree on OP's proposal.

Now don't forget that at any time, if you don't want to pay, you can start farming yourself and it will cost you nothing apart from your time.

This is the answer.

Dr_Con · February 2023

I want furnishings to start requiring more style and trait items.

200 gryphon plumes to make a gryphon fixture? yes please.

1000 diamonds, jade, amethyst, etc to make a bejeweled throne? Say less.

LadyLethalla · February 2023

tincanman wrote: »

Price aren't anywhere near outrageous if you farm them for yourself.

It took me 18 months to amass 1600 or so Dec Wax, Mundane Runes and Heartwood each. I bought Moon Sugar Meadow recently to make a wedding reception venue and I have less than 100 Dec Wax and Heartwood left each, and 500 or so Mundane Runes left, with less than 10 furnishing slots remaining. AND I bought a lot of items with gold from both guild traders and furnishing merchants, and also some items from the Crown Store.

Today, like every other day, I have been collecting every rune and wood node I have seen, and I've found less than 10 Mundane Runes and Heartwood.

So yeah... it IS cheaper if you farm them yourself, except it takes a hell of a long time, and it disappears all too quickly.

kargen27 · February 2023

Northwold wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"And nothing prevents you from doing trials without guild membership, whereas for trading the alternative is, er, spamming zone chat until you get banned because you are locked out of the actual trading system."

As opposed to spamming zone chat for a pug? You aren't locked out of the trading system you are refusing to participate in a way that has the potential of generating more profits.

We aren't really hijacking the thread as the suggestion would have a great impact on trading making trading an important part of the discussion. Players put as much time and effort into being a top trader as do players competing for the leader boards.

Trials you start with the base normal trials and pugs work well for those. Then you can either chase DLC normal or vet base trials. Pugs get a little more iffy here. Eventually if you keep going down the trial path you will want to start doing vet DLCs and then hard mode runs. Those take more commitment. Usually a progression group is formed inside a guild and they work towards an end goal.
Trading starts with selling items to vendors. It goes from there to either zone chat or guild stores in social guilds to other guild members. As you progress down the trading path you might join a social guild that gets a trader occasionally or gets one off the beaten path. Then when you get to wanting to really take advantage of what the game has to offer for traders you join a guild that works together to maintain a high traffic trade location each week.

One takes as much time/effort as the other and there is a multitude of tiers to both running trials and trading so players at all levels can participate at a pace they are comfortable with. Entire guilds built around the trading system shows how much better this is than a boring central location.
A few people advocate time and again to get rid of a part of the game that so many people enjoy. That is why those that enjoy trading defend it so vehemently. Even in this thread the original post mentions as one of two goals changing the economy directly impacting those that enjoy the current system.
The 2nd goal mentioned I don't think will be realized if the change were made. I don't see how buying materials at a vendor would stimulate more gameplay.

Trading is a system that feeds into every gameplay aspect of the game. It affects pretty much every player (including when players decide not to use the system), from how they acquire gear, to food ingredients, to how long it takes them to craft a house or a weapon. Trials are not such a system. Very close to nothing changes for the rest of the game whether you do them or not.

At the end of the day, they are fundamentally different. One relates to substantially all gameplay activity. The other is an isolated *form of* gameplay activity. The comparison doesn't work.

They are the same in there being many different levels of participation. Trading is end game for some and trials are end game for some. I am saying the trading system is an important part of the game and your saying it feeds into every aspect of the game shows that to be true. This change would undermine the economy and have negative affects on the game beyond just the economy.

kargen27 · February 2023

"I don't think housing players should have been to be disproportionately drained of their coin to make the players that are making money off of them happy."

Purchasing materials is a choice. The players selling the materials should be able to be compensated for their time. I could see an argument being made for improving drop rates. Selling them through vendors in my opinion would not be good for the game.

Zodiarkslayer · February 2023

In my opinion all crafting materials should be for sale, with prices that reflect their value. All at the respective vendors.
Basic Crafting mats
Upgrade mats (including golden mats!)
Housing mats

We already have the 10 racial style stones for sale at 15 gold each. And yet stacks of them are offered for more than that per piece. I think people underestimate the market. 😉

DivineKitty · February 2023

I've gone on record saying we need Furnishing material vendors before, and I think it would be the best implementation if these mats were sold by the vendors in the Imperial City Sewer Bases.
The reason is 2 fold: Tel var isn't as easy to acquire as gold is, and they can't be traded so there is still an element of having to work for it: You still need to actually farm Something.
And second, It would bring more life to Imperial City, which is usually pretty barren in off-hours, while at the same time giving people in IC something to actually buy with Tel Var other then RNG-dependant Set items, and One-time Cosmetics.

That said, I also wouldn't be opposed to Materials being available for Tickets on the Master Writ vendors either. These might actually be more thematically appropriate, since they already sell Rare furnishing plans, so it makes sense that the materials required to create these furnishings would also be sold here too, right? Some farming would also be required with this solution, mainly for the regular crafting mats for the writs, but that's somewhat less excruciating than the current state of Furnishing Mat farming.

XSTRONG · February 2023

DreamyLu wrote: »

I don't agree on OP's proposal.

Now don't forget that at any time, if you don't want to pay, you can start farming yourself and it will cost you nothing apart from your time.

No i dont think there should be a vendor that sells mats for gold although they should increase drop rate maybe with a farming mythic like i have mention in another thread.

As dreamyLu said you are welcome to farm the mats yourself instead of buying them

johnjetau · February 2023

I think its time ZOS added a new craft that allows us to buy and break down unwanted furniture for mats, just like we can with Armor, Jewelry, Glyphs etc

ZOS_Icy · February 2023

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Housing section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

Northwold · February 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"And nothing prevents you from doing trials without guild membership, whereas for trading the alternative is, er, spamming zone chat until you get banned because you are locked out of the actual trading system."

As opposed to spamming zone chat for a pug? You aren't locked out of the trading system you are refusing to participate in a way that has the potential of generating more profits.

We aren't really hijacking the thread as the suggestion would have a great impact on trading making trading an important part of the discussion. Players put as much time and effort into being a top trader as do players competing for the leader boards.

Trials you start with the base normal trials and pugs work well for those. Then you can either chase DLC normal or vet base trials. Pugs get a little more iffy here. Eventually if you keep going down the trial path you will want to start doing vet DLCs and then hard mode runs. Those take more commitment. Usually a progression group is formed inside a guild and they work towards an end goal.
Trading starts with selling items to vendors. It goes from there to either zone chat or guild stores in social guilds to other guild members. As you progress down the trading path you might join a social guild that gets a trader occasionally or gets one off the beaten path. Then when you get to wanting to really take advantage of what the game has to offer for traders you join a guild that works together to maintain a high traffic trade location each week.

One takes as much time/effort as the other and there is a multitude of tiers to both running trials and trading so players at all levels can participate at a pace they are comfortable with. Entire guilds built around the trading system shows how much better this is than a boring central location.
A few people advocate time and again to get rid of a part of the game that so many people enjoy. That is why those that enjoy trading defend it so vehemently. Even in this thread the original post mentions as one of two goals changing the economy directly impacting those that enjoy the current system.
The 2nd goal mentioned I don't think will be realized if the change were made. I don't see how buying materials at a vendor would stimulate more gameplay.

Trading is a system that feeds into every gameplay aspect of the game. It affects pretty much every player (including when players decide not to use the system), from how they acquire gear, to food ingredients, to how long it takes them to craft a house or a weapon. Trials are not such a system. Very close to nothing changes for the rest of the game whether you do them or not.

At the end of the day, they are fundamentally different. One relates to substantially all gameplay activity. The other is an isolated *form of* gameplay activity. The comparison doesn't work.

They are the same in there being many different levels of participation. Trading is end game for some and trials are end game for some. I am saying the trading system is an important part of the game and your saying it feeds into every aspect of the game shows that to be true. This change would undermine the economy and have negative affects on the game beyond just the economy.

Again, I don't think what you're saying makes sense, no matter how much one might wish it did. It doesn't undermine the economy to make goods that are supposed to be more easily available (see @spartaxoxo 's post) as accessible as they're supposed to be. It just means people who use trading *as a mini game* make slightly less money. Those people are not "the economy" or, at least, basic game design should dictate that, if they are, something has gone wrong because they should not be.

And if you're really going to suggest that either (a) giving NPC vendors crafting mats to sell or (b) removing the guild gate from access to selling will "have negative effects beyond just the economy" (and I would substitute there "the trading game" rather than "the economy"), really you need to name those "negative effects" because, actually, what I see happening is the game getting a proper, functional economy instead of the mess it has at the moment, which would allow people to stop faffing around half the time and actually play the game's *content*.

Liquidity of supply of common items would increase, liquidity of funds to buy them would increase, prices would actually behave like they would in a market that involves all players, rather than a subset of the playerbase with crimped levels of supply.

And I'm afraid the oft-cited point of "gold sink" is not an answer because it is perfectly possible to implement a gold sink with identical impact while revising the trading system or, indeed, while making crafting mats available from NPC vendors. If everyone arguing passionately that the game needs a gold sink whenever it suits them meant what they said, they wouldn't use that same argument simultaneously to argue passionately against every proposal that might have the side effect of reducing the amount of gold they make. Ergo, they wouldn't use the need for gold sinks as a pretext to argue *against* a gold sink.

LadyLethalla wrote: »

So yeah... it IS cheaper if you farm them yourself, except it takes a hell of a long time, and it disappears all too quickly.

Indeed. It took me *two years* to furnish Thieves Oasis, after which I dropped the game for a year, didn't buy the chapters, and unsubscribed from ESO plus thinking "what the hell am I doing with my life". It stopped being entertaining in any way, shape or form.

Far from driving player engagement, this level of grind pushes people away from the game.

Crown Store incentives aside, I'm not sure ZOS have really factored into their game design that some people's primary activity in the game *is* housing, rather than housing being a bonus activity while people do everything else. The balance feels wildly wrong in almost the diametrically opposite direction from the way the trading system has been "balanced".

Ajaxandriel · February 2023

Northwold wrote: »

and that every change in the game that could damage their play style should be blocked -- no matter how much it would make the game more enjoyable for pretty much everyone else (multiple threads even today on seemingly unrelated topics have all derailed into "but what about my gold?" laments). It is very much a niche.

Separately, but related, there is a fundamental problem with the trading system that keeps an awful lot of players completely divorced from it, namely that selling is gated behind membership of a player controlled guild. That point gets dismissed here but it is a real point and a problem with the way the game has been designed that affects all sorts of other activities.

I don't want to go into that here as it will derail the thread, which is about furnishing materials, but people who don't want to touch the current trading system with a bargepole run into problems all over the place, for example in not having enough gold to buy furnishing mats at current prices in the volumes required to fill houses. If you can't sell, it approaches impossible to keep up with guild trader pricing, especially on PC. But, look yonder! A Crown Store!

FACTS

DivineKitty wrote: »

I've gone on record saying we need Furnishing material vendors before, and I think it would be the best implementation if these mats were sold by the vendors in the Imperial City Sewer Bases.
The reason is 2 fold: Tel var isn't as easy to acquire as gold is, and they can't be traded so there is still an element of having to work for it: You still need to actually farm Something.
And second, It would bring more life to Imperial City, which is usually pretty barren in off-hours, while at the same time giving people in IC something to actually buy with Tel Var other then RNG-dependant Set items, and One-time Cosmetics.

That said, I also wouldn't be opposed to Materials being available for Tickets on the Master Writ vendors either. These might actually be more thematically appropriate, since they already sell Rare furnishing plans, so it makes sense that the materials required to create these furnishings would also be sold here too, right? Some farming would also be required with this solution, mainly for the regular crafting mats for the writs, but that's somewhat less excruciating than the current state of Furnishing Mat farming.

Sorry but those suggestion are... not very clever (to stay the less).
First, Tel Var are indeed tradable (negatively) since they are taken from a player by another one after any pvp encounter in pvp zone.

Northwold wrote: »

Indeed. It took me *two years* to furnish Thieves Oasis, after which I dropped the game for a year, didn't buy the chapters, and unsubscribed from ESO plus thinking "what the hell am I doing with my life". It stopped being entertaining in any way, shape or form.

Far from driving player engagement, this level of grind pushes people away from the game.

Crown Store incentives aside, I'm not sure ZOS have really factored into their game design that some people's primary activity in the game *is* housing, rather than housing being a bonus activity while people do everything else. The balance feels wildly wrong in almost the diametrically opposite direction from the way the trading system has been "balanced".

Again, nothing but FACTS here!

I'm not sure the balance is that good for ZoS in terms of monetization, as far as I don't buy crowns to spend in new houses any more because I don't have enough time to grind and furnish them as I would - got discouraged and left.

ThelerisTelvanni · February 2023

Well doing housing for some time now, I have to say that getting the materials is beyond good and evil.

Whyle a vendor selling the materials for gold does not offend me, I'd think there are other options as well. You can add a way to farm those materials more targeted. You can add a way to convert regular crafting materis into housing materials. Or simply enhance the drop rates as mentioned bevore. Lowering the crafting coasts is also an option.

On the other hand I have to say that those players that see games like this as an economics game, at least to some degree, ruin the fun/waste the time of others. Since they are trying to get all the money they can, they naturally buy cheep stuff and sell it for a higher price. That in turn means that the "normal" player does often not get the cheep price one might normally find more often and instead often/only the more expensive one from the economics player. That means the normal player has to pay more to get what he wants/needs. That in return means the player need to spend more time on the gold grind.

To think that the guild traders are a good model is somewhat counterintuitive for me, since there are so few of the traders, that not every guild can have one at a frequently used location. If having one at all! Selling within a small guild is also not realy an option to get a propper audience/buyer bace to sell your stuff to. Beeing only able to propperly sell your stuff only if you are a member of a trading guild, with a vendor at a good locaton, makes me think that the economic system is one of the week points of TESO.

A way to improuve on that topic, might be to add guild traders to guild halls as well. But only if guild halls are visitable by everyone and acceseble from a sort of guildhall hub. Adding the abilety for traders to buy requested items off from players in a certain quantety for a certain price might also help. The buyer might have to place the gold for those purchases at the trader bevorehand.

Well in the end I think we need a better way to get suficient amount of housing materials to furnish our homes. Otherwise it will hurt not only the housing playerbace, but also the sales of the big houses, that cost more than some games. And I think ZOS might want to sell some more of those

Dr_Con · February 2023

DivineKitty wrote: »

I've gone on record saying we need Furnishing material vendors before, and I think it would be the best implementation if these mats were sold by the vendors in the Imperial City Sewer Bases.
The reason is 2 fold: Tel var isn't as easy to acquire as gold is, and they can't be traded so there is still an element of having to work for it: You still need to actually farm Something.
And second, It would bring more life to Imperial City, which is usually pretty barren in off-hours, while at the same time giving people in IC something to actually buy with Tel Var other then RNG-dependant Set items, and One-time Cosmetics.

That said, I also wouldn't be opposed to Materials being available for Tickets on the Master Writ vendors either. These might actually be more thematically appropriate, since they already sell Rare furnishing plans, so it makes sense that the materials required to create these furnishings would also be sold here too, right? Some farming would also be required with this solution, mainly for the regular crafting mats for the writs, but that's somewhat less excruciating than the current state of Furnishing Mat farming.

That city is literally trying to rebuild and you wanna have them make furnishing mats available for exchange? smh

it makes sense for them to sell off furniture, but not the mats that can help them rebuild or fortify defenses.