Elsonso wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

Generally, drop chances are a very interesting topic imo. Has it ever actually been confirmed that item drops are statistically independent events? And do all weapon and armour types share the same drop chances? Intuitively, this should be the case, but some players are convinced that there dark and mysterious forces at play when it comes to item drops. I once got five 1hs drops in a row from vma (including reward mails), that totally freaked me out. ^^

No one really knows how the RNG works in this game. They love the concept, and people can sometimes spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling with things they love. At this point, the RNG could be weighted by a number of different criteria. They may even have a trivial task to change it that can be done at any time, or even managed by some automated tool that monitors actual vs planned drops.

Personally, I think it is "random" in name only.

@Elsonso Yeah, you may well be right. I can totally see ZOS playing around with the fate of us mortals by periodically changing drop chances.^^

And, as far as I know, you are right, drops are definitely not random. In video games they usually use algorithms to generate "pseudorandom numbers", the result is a sequence of seemingly random numbers, but they are all predetermined. To generate "real random numbers", people use weird entropy sources like popcorn machines, avalanches etc. Really interesting stuff, but you'd probably need a degree in physics to even begin to understand that stuff.

Masel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Maybe just do the content with friends and trade gear drops?

If you watched the video, you'd know that that argument doesn't cut it.


You have friends that spend hours just to get you the item without any benefit for themselves? Great for you. That doesn't apply to everyone else, which is why on both EU and NA, queuing for Arx gets you into groups that are pretty much guaranteed to include farmers that want the same item as you do. A system that requires you to have other people spend time for you is a bad one. And you're still not guaranteed to get it in a reasonable amount of time, even with 4 people. Keep in mind that usually, everyone in a farming group looks for the same item, so strictly speaking, you'd just have to beat the chance 4 times.


You also didn't watch the video, because I talk about exactly that in there as well.

I am at work. I can sneak in these texts but I can’t stop and watch YouTube videos.

I kind of get that people may not have a friends list for this stuff. But if you are just a solo player do people really need bis gear then? Is a craftable that gets a player close good enough for nearly all solo play?

The only players I see really impacted by this are solo pvp players. But have you considered that forming groups to get the harder/rarer gear is part of the design of the gears rarity?

Maybe having an easier time to get gear by trading is a subtle reward for “organized” play.

Actually I am not in favor of a token system. I however agreee that weapons are underreprestented in the RNG. I would add some more weapon drops as a better solution however.

Masel wrote: »

I don't want instant gratification.

I just want certainty that at some point, there will be gratification. So I could work at it a little bit per day for example. It could take a month with 2 runs per day, I don't care.

None of us are wanting instant gratification and I just find it hilarious that people think token systems are somehow going to be a "day one" thing. I don't want it day one and it's bold of them to assume that from my statements when none have indicated as such.

Be that as it may though, it'd be nice if they either implemented a token system or started putting weapons and gear that wasn't jewelry or Monster Sets onto the Golden vendor. I'd take either at this point.

The idea of using the undaunted keys to buy specific dungeon drops is frankly a stroke of genius. It encourages people to do all dungeons rather than just one specific dungeon over and over which promotes much more engaging gameplay.

Due to the nature of undaunted keys it also encourages players to beat the dungeons on the harder difficulties rather than just blasting through them at fast as possible on normal with 4 dd's. I think the nature of undaunted keys promotes a much more healthy system than encouraging players to blast through dungeons on normal for gear.

Since you can only get so many keys per day it encourages players to not get burned out due to grinding but rather introduces an incentive for regularly playing dungeons each day rather than burning out on them in a single session.

Since the introduction of the item set collection system, undaunted keys tend to the point of becoming useless since you can have every monster shoulder in your set collection. This would add a new much-needed use for them and encourage players who haven't done pledges in years to run them again. Which I think is great overall for the game. Pledges are a great system that encourages players to do every dungeon and in my opinion, should be encouraged as much as possible.

It would also introduce no additional server load/ storage requirement. It thematically fits and, in my opinion, would be a perfectly intuitive system.

@ZOS_RobGarrett Please consider it.

zelaminator wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Your argument here includes several assumptions.

First, because you think the rewards for the time invested are adequate, that doesn't mean that other people do the same. People that desire a particular item usually don't care about the experience, gold or any other item than the one they want.

Second, you're implying that just because you think that these items aren't needed or desirable, there is no problem to solve.

There are people in this game who take fun out of theorycrafting and testing. People who make build guides need to farm these items so they can test different options.

For them, this is a problem that very much needs fixing.

And again: in what way does it hurt you? I just don't know how you can be against something that doesn't hurt anyone.

Your argumentation seems pretty selfish to me.

You call my words, assumptions? I call yours lies then, if we play that game.. Don't confuse my opinion with assumptions.. I think the rewards are adequate for what you do, even though you might be unhappy.. And yes, I say that the item is not needed, because it is not needed.. It's desired by you, fine, but not needed.. What you do for fun, is up to you, it makes no difference to what I am saying.. What build guides feel the need to do, makes no difference either.. You CHOOSE what you want to do, no once forces you.. You're free to call me selfish, I don't care one bit.. I've got the right to express my opinion, just like everyone else.. And my opinion is that such a system that you clamor for, is not needed in this game

You can voice your opinion as you want sure, but you can't expect everyone to agree with what you say

Again, you didn't answer the main question I asked: how would the token system hurt you?

If it doesn't hurt you (and I assume it doesnt), why do you feel the need to say that it isn't needed?

If it solves a problem for a part of the playerbase and doesn't impact you negatively, I don't understand how you can be against it.

CyberOnEso wrote: »

The idea of using the undaunted keys to buy specific dungeon drops is frankly a stroke of genius. It encourages people to do all dungeons rather than just one specific dungeon over and over which promotes much more engaging gameplay.

Due to the nature of undaunted keys it also encourages players to beat the dungeons on the harder difficulties rather than just blasting through them at fast as possible on normal with 4 dd's. I think the nature of undaunted keys promotes a much more healthy system than encouraging players to blast through dungeons on normal for gear.

Since you can only get so many keys per day it encourages players to not get burned out due to grinding but rather introduces an incentive for regularly playing dungeons each day rather than burning out on them in a single session.

Since the introduction of the item set collection system, undaunted keys tend to the point of becoming useless since you can have every monster shoulder in your set collection. This would add a new much-needed use for them and encourage players who haven't done pledges in years to run them again. Which I think is great overall for the game. Pledges are a great system that encourages players to do every dungeon and in my opinion, should be encouraged as much as possible.

It would also introduce no additional server load/ storage requirement. It thematically fits and, in my opinion, would be a perfectly intuitive system.

@ZOS_RobGarrett Please consider it.

That's why I emphasised the undaunted system here. It's already there, so the only thing they need to do is put in a vendor that sells set weapons for a certain amount of keys.

I wouldn't put all set items on there, because then there would be no reason to run specific dungeons anymore.

So armor & jewelery would stay as is, for weapons you can either rely on rng or just slowly work your way towards the thing you desire.

I really don't see how anyone can see harm in this.

CyberOnEso wrote: »

The idea of using the undaunted keys to buy specific dungeon drops is frankly a stroke of genius. It encourages people to do all dungeons rather than just one specific dungeon over and over which promotes much more engaging gameplay.

Due to the nature of undaunted keys it also encourages players to beat the dungeons on the harder difficulties rather than just blasting through them at fast as possible on normal with 4 dd's. I think the nature of undaunted keys promotes a much more healthy system than encouraging players to blast through dungeons on normal for gear.

Since you can only get so many keys per day it encourages players to not get burned out due to grinding but rather introduces an incentive for regularly playing dungeons each day rather than burning out on them in a single session.

Since the introduction of the item set collection system, undaunted keys tend to the point of becoming useless since you can have every monster shoulder in your set collection. This would add a new much-needed use for them and encourage players who haven't done pledges in years to run them again. Which I think is great overall for the game. Pledges are a great system that encourages players to do every dungeon and in my opinion, should be encouraged as much as possible.

It would also introduce no additional server load/ storage requirement. It thematically fits and, in my opinion, would be a perfectly intuitive system.

@ZOS_RobGarrett Please consider it.

Honestly, it'd get more people running pledges outside of guilds which totally nullifies the whole argument that there'll be nobody in dungeons. Because there'd literally be no change other than an uptick of dailies being ran.

The ONLY thing I could see it hurting are the group farms, which honestly would be a good thing because that means people are in there for the content and not the piece of gear (those that you mention blasting through normals with 4 DDs).

It really is a no brainer.

A couple of points:

You argue that group drops don't count because everyone is there to farm the same thing, which is not true. I want to eventually complete all the sticker books, so I'm going to be running those dungeons long after I've gotten all the "desired" pieces.

You also argue that armor pieces are useless, but you could get away with wearing two heavy armor pieces if you wanted to test things (which you can also do in the PTS, which is where most content creators test their stuff).

And finally, you calculate that 78 runs are required on average to get a specific weapon, and then go on to suggest that you should be able to trade in 30 undaunted keys for a weapon. I don't think that's a realistic expectation. Any system that lets you compensate for bad luck always requires more effort than what the "average" is. So I wouldn't expect anything for less than 100 undaunted keys (or 100 dungeon tokens if they go the way of specific tokens).

What I would like to see is the addition of weapons to all dungeon bosses on a 50% armor/50% weapon drop rate, as well as the rethinking of some of the named weapons.

alberichtano wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

some time ago I needed Draugr Hulk great sword and it took me ONLY 104 runs. No joke. Despite being able to often find chests, it took me way to long than it is necessary. Some kind of token system should be introduced.
Funny thing is that IC dungeons actually have something like that. You have trophy vaults that you can open with special currency (key stones). Also thos "key stones" are tradeable so you could technically "buy" dungeon gear with gold. Other, simpler way would be to simply make all gear in eso tradeable.

That is the difference between a guaranteed drop and a drop that is not guaranteed.

It seems obvious to me that the ESO designers wanted a system where the drops in question were not guaranteed. Instead, roughly half the people would eventually get it in the first "X" attempt while the other half would not. Thus, some number of people attempting would never get the drop. That is RNG.

The token systems tend to be guarantee, in so far as the currency used to buy them does not drop randomly and cannot be shared.

That is a fundamental entitlement issue. Is the player entitled to that drop, and thus the drop should be guaranteed?

Well... considering that there are raid-groups that DEMAND members to wear certain sets, it is very hard to argue that someone is not "entitled" to find a specific drop, seeing as that could lead to being essentially kicked from a group. Now I hope most raid-groups are not THAT obstinate, but considering the toxicity I have seen and heard, I really wouldn't be surprised. :-/

If there wasn't such a hard-drawn META-line, it would be less of an issue, I think.

This is a player created problem and not a game created problem. The players that demand certain gear and the players willing to tolerate players that demand certain gear are the what created your problem. The only groups I have encountered that do this have been two PvP guilds demanding gear and skills for group dynamics and one trial guild for their elite team that looked to get on the leader boards. The trial guild had several runs though that were not a part of the elite team that members could participate in no matter the gear.

I've been looking for the Medusa Inferno staff for a while now. I helped a friend get his necklace saw I didn't have the staff and decided to try and get it. I'm guessing I am well over 200 runs now but the way I do it doesn't seem like a grind to me. I did right about fifty runs last time Arx was the pledge. Even that day it wasn't a grind for me. I got in one group where we found out all of us wanted the staff. So we ran the dungeon 11 times just blazing to the final boss. None of us got the drop. One person needed a ring and we did get that for him.

The rest of the runs were random groups. Sometimes it was players wanting to get to final boss quick as possible. Sometimes it was a group that wanted to do the quest and listen to the dialog. Usually it was a mix. I was on heals and because of the dressing room add-on I can switch builds really quick. With experienced groups I could run all DPS. With the less experienced I needed to slot some heals. The diversity in the groups running kept it interesting. I don't think I would have lasted much past the eleven we did just going full speed to the end if that was all that we did for the whole time. Because each run was a little different it kept it from being so stale. Even had two players that the Arx run was their very first dungeon. Those were fun watching someone get into that content for the first time. We took our time so they could roam around a bit. I can just burn the bosses if I want and sometimes run solo for a couple just for something different but with new and inexperienced players I back off some and let them make an impact.

As I said above I am well above 200 runs but hasn't been a grind for me. If it were I wouldn't do it. I can tell when someone in group does think it is a grind though. No group chat, skip chests, dodge trash and sometimes skip boss and soon as last boss falls they are out. They can't be having fun doing it that way but that is on them.

I wouldn't be opposed to a token system. I do think if it were made to easy it would take away from the long term health of the game. I see people suggest a change would not hurt others personally. This isn't necessarily true. MMOs need players repeating content to thrive. A token system if not done right could take away from the incentive to repeat content. So any token system needs to have its own limitations.
A few ideas come to mind. First pledges give tokens and that would work like the keys. This one would be easy (comparatively) to put in place and could maybe reduce wait times for DPS in queues.

2nd idea, make the first dungeon you run each day give a token. Wouldn't matter if in a group or solo. Problem with this players would probably just run Fungal Grotto each day to get the token so doesn't add anything really positive to the game outside of one token.

If we were to have a token system and I'm not convinced we need one I think something like this might work. Tokens are specific to dungeons. If you want the Medusa staff you would need to run Arx. Once a day running Arx you would get one token specific to Arx. So if you want gear from four different dungeons you could run each one and get one token for each every day. I would tier the token amount needed. Armor drops more readily than weapons so armor would cost less tokens than weapons would. This would probably be a mess to implement but players would then need to do the content for the drop they want.

As much as I would prefer the third if we must have one probably the pledge idea is the way to go. Wouldn't be hard to put in game (I'm guessing) and would help populate the queue.

rootkitronin wrote: »

Nastassiya wrote: »

This game does NOT need a token system. Some items should require grinding and not be easy to obtain.

EverQuest, I spent over 730 active play hours for 1 item for my Shadow Knight Epic.

A Medusa Staff is essentially an epic weapon for spell casters. It should not be easy to obtain and not everyone should be able to easily built out their character with their dream gear.

Except that a Medusa Staff isn't epic at all, or special in any way, it's just a normal dungeon set, and - if you're lucky - it is easy to obtain.

There's no skill or effort involved in getting the staff, it just involves mindless grinding and random draws. You can literally solo Arx on normal and farm it over and over - it's not difficult. But ultimately it's up to the luck of the draw if and when you get the item.

Players putting in 100's of hours into grinding and acting like they've paid the price and earned the item... except they didn't, they didn't earn anything, they didn't do anything special, or build up achievements towards some cumulative goal - they just got bad draws for hundred's of hours before they finally got lucky - that's it. All while other players waltz in and pick it up without ever thinking twice.

What I see is people who had bad luck for 100's of hours, and now want everyone else to go through the same terrible rolls they had for as long as they had - wearing their RNG like some artificial badge of honor. Sounds like a terrible philosophy for the game and gamers alike.

If it requires no skill nor effort to obtain then no change is needed. I think you argued the opposite of what you want the outcome to be. Actually I know you argued the wrong side.

It doesn't need tokens. This is already the least grindy RPG i have played in ...well... ever. It's ok to have to work for some things.