Alliance War change to Rapid Maneuvers

SnowP · July 2020

Alliance War

Assault
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

[snip] 12 of my 17 active Chars will loose the acces to Rapid Maneuvers which they use frequently. [snip] - On a PvP Server with lags, pop locked at prime time, desyncs and no appropriate gear or CP settings. I will not do this.
Thanks for nothing.

[Edited to remove Demands and Threats]

Kesstryl · July 2020

I'm not happy about this change either as I don't like PvP, and open world PvE is way to tedious to run my mount through without it. My poor new toons and their slow mounts, having that was a saving grace while I leveled up my speed skill line. RIP for non-PvP players.

vgabor · July 2020

Half of the comments on the update27 preview thread (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/536538/update-27-combat-preview) is about leaving rapids as it is now, which should show @ZOS team something if they actually read feedback...

There were way better ideas there, like swapping vigor with siege shield (1st from support line)

Shinni42 · July 2020

This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience.

The game involves a lot of walking and riding. Having Rapid Maneuvers improves the leveling experience for all builds regardless of whether they use magicka or stamina. Moving Vigor to the front of the skill line will only help stamina playstyles.
However, even for my stamina characters this change will actually decrease my enjoyment of leveling the character instead of improving it. There are so many options for healing (eg tons of free potions from login rewards) that healing is not an issue during the leveling process. However, the slower traveling speed from removing Rapids will be really annoying.

Puzzlenuts · July 2020

PVP is also tedious on new characters riding slow ass mounts all over Cyrodiil. I do hope they reconsider this decision. Most people that i know go there to get rapid maneuvers on day 1 of character creation whether its a pvp or pve toon.

Jayne_Doe · July 2020

Yeah, while this will be punishing for all players, regardless of whether they PvP or not, I think it will be esp. punishing to new PvP players and to new PvP alts. Riding a slow mount around Cyro until, what rank 6 (or whatever it is), means that it will take them much longer to get to PvP objectives, and I think, will just make getting to rank 6 more of a slog than it needs to be.

Slowing down the process for all PvPers (and non-PvPers) to gain access to Rapids just so stamina-only players can get access to a heal earlier on? I think it's a bad move, unless their aim is really to slow down all new players and chars in Cyro so they're more vulnerable to more advanced players and take even longer to level their AP rank since it takes longer to get to PvP objectives.

I dislike it because it means all but my main will lose Rapids. I don't generally use it on my alts unless I'm using them to get my tickets during MYM, so it's not a great loss. But, it was really great to have it on my brand new DC necro, as I'd just port him to the fort closest to Chorrol, do the flame atro quest, and then ride back. Will be much slower to do without rapids, but I can do the quest with a fully trained DC char. I just used him to get the extra XP.

Bucky_13 · July 2020

vgabor wrote: »

Half of the comments on the update27 preview thread (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/536538/update-27-combat-preview) is about leaving rapids as it is now, which should show @ZOS team something if they actually read feedback...

There were way better ideas there, like swapping vigor with siege shield (1st from support line)

This 100%, almost no one who PvPs uses siege shield initially anyway. Not to mention siege shield is mostly used while assaulting a keep, while vigor is essentially a defensive ability.

Swap vigor with siege shield, give players access to vigor and rapids first. Which will be a change that most players would actually be happy about, unlike this change which I hate so so much.

Sordidfairytale · July 2020

Put Rapids in a new World Skill Line that is unlocked by visiting a Stable Master.

Pevey · July 2020

This is the result of putting a pretty much essential stam skill (vigor) in an otherwise non-essential-for-95%-of-players pvp skill line. I suggest putting vigor somewhere else, like fighter's guild.

linlilia · July 2020

Terrible idea and a huge quality of life deterioration.

Apox · July 2020

big mistake.

swap rapids and siege shield.

when you use siege shield, youre usually assaulting a keep

when you use vigor, youre usually supporting yourself or an ally.

nobody wants t ogrind assault 5 to unlock rapids. its going to screw over more players than moving vigor to slot 1 will help

at the absolute bare minimum, just reduce the requirement of vigor to assault 3. after doing the cyrodiil into, all you have to do is 1 singular bg to reach assault 3 to unlock vigor.

players should have to do something after all to unlock an ability as strong as vigor.

Red_Feather · July 2020

Yeah put rapids as first skill in support.

Luke_Flamesword · July 2020

You really want people to grind Cyrodill on low level without Rapids, just to have Rapids? And how they supposed to do this when they even can't follow group beacuse horse with 5 speed points and no rapids is slower than running by foot?

This is for torture new players or better sells of speed lessons from crown store? For me this Vigor situation sounds only like excuse because you can make this skill more accessible without touching Rapids.

You can even make a new basic heal in Soul Magic skilline with magicka and stamina versions - easy skill for every new player!

SgtPepperUK · July 2020

My suggestion (if you're absolutely determined to put Vigor at rank 2):

At the moment, doing the Cyrodiil tutorial quests gets one to rank 3 in the Assault / Support skill line.

Have Vigor at rank 2, Rapids at 4 and Warhorn at 5.

Increase the AP on the tutorial quests so that completing them gets you to rank 4.

Still not ideal, and it would mean some people would have to grind another rank potentially to keep Warhorn but, having Rapids defintely helps with that and, if I have to regrind some AP to get back a skill, I'd rather do it for Warhorn than Rapids.

Any characters I have that have Warhorn are generally built up enough to grind that AP in a good time frame. I have characters with Rapids currently that would struggle to get that AP, other than grinding a lot of repairing keeps.

deleted221106-002999 · July 2020

I suspect part of decision is based on slowing us down - I imagine there's less hit in terms of server calculations from those moving slower (without rapids) than those moving faster (using rapids).

Making this change will likely result in a lot of predominantly pve players losing the skill requiring that they slow down or re-farm the necessary ap to reacquire it.

I know the crown store sells mount speed/stamina/inventory upgrades but I don't believe that to be a motivator for this decision and I'm usually quite cynical about these things.

Not sure how I feel about it as it won't really impact me given my eclectic play style but it will affect many I know in game for whom pvp is anathema.

Clearly there are other less controversial ways this could be implemented...perhaps leave the alliance skills as is and introduce a new healing skill into one or more of the guild skill lines(fighters: stamina heal, mages: magicka heal)?

OG_Kaveman · July 2020

SnowP wrote: »

Alliance War

Assault
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

[snip] 12 of my 17 active Chars will loose the acces to Rapid Maneuvers which they use frequently. [snip] - On a PvP Server with lags, pop locked at prime time, desyncs and no appropriate gear or CP settings. I will not do this.
Thanks for nothing.

i guarantee you wont stop playing and will definitely "do this".

Recapitated · July 2020

Why not just give both rapid and vigor from the get-go? There's nothing stopping ZOS.

luen79rwb17_ESO · July 2020

Bad times to make new characters... It a way to push those riding lessons...

DarcyMardin · July 2020

Please make this terrible change go away! Folks have suggested several good alternatives if vigor is to be available earlier (which would be nice for stam characters), but pushing rapids back to level 5 in assault is not the answer. Everybody, both PvP and PvE characters, needs rapids early to make getting around on those painfully-slow horses bearable. I put the skill on my bar on all characters as soon as they reach level 10, and I rarely take it off, unless I’m doing difficult content.

All classes, magicka and stamina, should have a class skill that allows them to heal themselves early in their skill lines. Why this isn’t already the case for all classes, including for those who spec into stamina, is beyond me. But that doesn’t mean we should all have to grind to level 5 in Cyrodiil (particularly those of us who have no interest in PvP) to get a much-needed speed skill like rapids.

And those of us who have characters who have have been using rapids for, literally, years, (6 years in my case) but don’t PvP and thus haven’t reached assault level 5, are going to be absolutely infuriated to lose this skill.

Mayrael · July 2020

As others mentioned. Rapids are very very needed in the beginning of the game to. Move siege shield to current rapids place or instead swap live siege shield with vigor. Both rapids and vigor should be at the first spot.

Kurat · July 2020

Putting vigor first is great idea. As mainly pve player, why should I be forced to pvp to lvl6 every time I'm leveling new toon.

OldManJim · July 2020

Of all the stupid ideas ZoS has ever had...

I only recently got vigor on my main & I've been playing since beta. Why? Because I hate PvP. I do the bare minimum for event tickets & that's it.

But complaining about it is pointless. ZoS doesn't listen to us paying customers. Just look at the recent Maelstrom fiasco.

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2020

Instead of forcing stam builds into Cyrodiil for Vigor, now they're forcing everyone into Cyrodiil for Rapids. A step backwards I think.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2020

SnowP wrote: »

Alliance War

Assault
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

[snip] 12 of my 17 active Chars will loose the acces to Rapid Maneuvers which they use frequently. [snip] - On a PvP Server with lags, pop locked at prime time, desyncs and no appropriate gear or CP settings. I will not do this.
Thanks for nothing.

You can always get to lvl 10 assault and support on one char then buy the upgrade on all the others

ZOS could just adjust the rank requirement for rapids to be lower I think that would be the best solution.

SnowP · July 2020

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

SnowP wrote: »

Alliance War

Assault
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

[snip] 12 of my 17 active Chars will loose the acces to Rapid Maneuvers which they use frequently. [snip] - On a PvP Server with lags, pop locked at prime time, desyncs and no appropriate gear or CP settings. I will not do this.
Thanks for nothing.

i guarantee you wont.

There might be a chance of 20% that you are right and I will still be playing without rapid.

E.g I am not playing my mag sorc since they removed the big shields that lasted 30 seconds long ago.
And when they introduced the pay a chaper each year on top of ESO+ mechanism with Morrowind and all
the Morrowind nerfs I left ESO for some month.

Just do a simple worst case calculation for our Spreadsheet Developers:
Let us take the mag sorc as an example which has finished cadwells gold and is masterctrafter with more than 50 known styles and uses rapid to speed up the daily crafting writs.

Char's AP: 18784
AP's need for Assault Rank 5 (new rapid position) : 98000
PvE town quest in Cyrodiil (not doing any PvP without any Buffs): 250 AP
Town quests needed for rapid: ceil((98000-18784)/250) = 317

So this char needs to do 317 town quests for a skill that was taken away.
For 12 chars I will not do 3804 town quests for a skill taken away.
Most of the other chars have only completed the tutorial to get rapid and will have less AP which increases the count further.
Doing PvE in Cyrodiil does not give you lots of AP and I am totally fine with this. But then don't exchange rapid with vigor.

And I would not bet on the 20% - if you do it like treasure chests in ESO - having a chance of 85% to open a simple chest and failing 4 times in a row.

SnowP · July 2020

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

SnowP wrote: »

Alliance War

Assault
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

[snip] 12 of my 17 active Chars will loose the acces to Rapid Maneuvers which they use frequently. [snip] - On a PvP Server with lags, pop locked at prime time, desyncs and no appropriate gear or CP settings. I will not do this.
Thanks for nothing.

You can always get to lvl 10 assault and support on one char then buy the upgrade on all the others

ZOS could just adjust the rank requirement for rapids to be lower I think that would be the best solution.

Even my main Char does not have level 10 assault and support. And why should I pay for a skill taken away?

Syrusthevirus187 · July 2020

I've said it for years rapids should be an automatic buff whenever you mount and not taking up a combat slot which you cant change once you're stuck in combat for 15 minutes.

BalticBlues · July 2020

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

I've said it for years rapids should be an automatic buff whenever you mount and not taking up a combat slot which you cant change once you're stuck in combat for 15 minutes.

THIS. Would finally be a positive change in Cyrodiil. Changing one of your skills to RAPID every time after a fight to get decent ride speed in Cyro is a micromanaging NIGHTMARE. However, I do not expect ZOS anymore to fix the steady nightmares in Cyro (lag, stuck in combat, getting killed while in loading screen etc. etc.)

ZOS_ConnorG · July 2020

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts in this thread, please ensure when having a discussion to keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. Even if you disapprove of something.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Gundug · July 2020

This is a pretty awful change from my point of view. I have some 60 plus alt characters, many of whom will now have to grind through PVP just to get their speed boost back. I don’t understand the idea of replacing something universally useful to all characters, and not just combat oriented ones, with something useful to only certain characters. I would very much appreciate ZOS backpedaling on this change.

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2020

ZOS puts a battlefield taxi in the crown store.

ZOS creates demand for that battlefield taxi by taking Rapids away from a lot of people.