Vengeance starts on the 3rd. So, no Cyrodiil?

SwordOfSagas · December 1

Just go imperial city for a week no big deal

edward_frigidhands · December 1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

On PS NA it is already one bar until sometime in the late afternoon most days.

That's a function of demographics more than anything else. 50% of MMO players are in full time employment, a further 25% are full time students. Average age is around 26, but the largest age groups is 25 - 40.

Also, only 50% play more than 18 hours a week.

I have to ask where you're getting these numbers.

I know how to read studies and use Google.

Can you point the rest of us to these numbers then? Seems rather odd you posted such specific information about this game's playerbase without a link.

I didn't even know there was a study conducted on the playerbase that yielded data someone other than the devs could have access to.

edward_frigidhands · December 1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

while failing to understand people are different, with different preferences, point of views, and experiences.

Not even remotely true. Pointing out that an opinion has no evidence to back it up, or pointing out something isn't remotely true is none of those things. Things such as:

SneaK wrote: »

And we all think it’s neat that they “intimated” theorycrafting might survive on life support for a while longer.

There are dozens of skills and dozens of perks. How can you not theorycraft?

There is a massive difference between options provided through Vengeance mode and those provided with access to the rest of the game.

I understand that you disagree but why not try and disagree with the actual opinions being mentioned as opposed to one no ones mentioned?

Gabriel_H · December 1

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

There is a massive difference between options provided through Vengeance mode and those provided with access to the rest of the game.

There is a massive difference between reduced theorycrafting and no theorycrafting.

Tandor · December 1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

On PS NA it is already one bar until sometime in the late afternoon most days.

That's a function of demographics more than anything else. 50% of MMO players are in full time employment, a further 25% are full time students. Average age is around 26, but the largest age groups is 25 - 40.

Also, only 50% play more than 18 hours a week.

Also, a significant proportion of the off-peak players will be quite a lot older than those age groups, TES having attracted a lot of players who started with the early games 40 odd years ago and came to ESO via Skyrim. My guess is that the oldest age group in the game is unlikely to include as many avid PvPers as the younger ones.

Poss · December 1

We were gaslit for months about Vengeance’s purpose. We were told it was all a test so people flocked into Cyrodiil to help out. ESO recorded its highest ever player count in Cyrodiil during the first test. Little did we know by taking part we were potentially sealing GH’s fate.

I shan’t be contributing to the next test and ZoS’s data game and if you’re passionate about GH and it’s future I urge you to do the same.

If Vengeance replaces GH permanently in the future, it’ll marked as the biggest betrayal in the games history

skinnymini · December 1

Not playing vengeance this time around, didn't play it since the first console test. First test was fun but got stale pretty quickly. If vengeance is the only campaigns to play I'll be done with the game itself, I won't be renewing my Eso sub either. Imo there won't be enough PvE stuff to keep me around and I started cyro at the peak of dark con and Necro triune bombers, as bad as it was I learnt how to counter act those interactions, which turned me into a better pvper alongside other players knowledge of the game, skills etc.
Imo vengeance is for players who have refused to change with the game ie play styles, theory crafting and overall improvement or pvers who expect to be good in cyro without putting in time and effort learning a new play style, a friend put it into simple terms, a pver who can have a dps output of 100k goes into cyrodiil expecting to be good in a borderline 25k hp all divines (realistic) build and going against a 35k hp in reinforced and impen pvper and getting wiped within seconds of stepping foot into that environment, or being used as a proc for bombers which in turn wipes alot of your fraction, and then complains about how unfair cyro is without expecting to die at such a fast rate, and how procs like VD and DC shouldn't exist ect ect.
Vengeance really shouldn't exist as a whole concept of gameplay. Problems would be fixed if server hardware was renewed, cross play for consoles and cutting support for older gen consoles.
But this is just my opinion as I'm just a lowly pvper who enjoys grey host as it is.

The_Meathead · December 1

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I have to ask where you're getting these numbers.

AI...lol

According to DC 100% of EP are unemployed.

Dang it.

You got me. I laughed while drinking coffee.

"Team B and Team C are scumbags who can't win without (insert despicable actions.)" - Team A

SneaK · December 1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

while failing to understand people are different, with different preferences, point of views, and experiences.

Not even remotely true. Pointing out that an opinion has no evidence to back it up, or pointing out something isn't remotely true is none of those things. Things such as:

SneaK wrote: »

And we all think it’s neat that they “intimated” theorycrafting might survive on life support for a while longer.

There are dozens of skills and dozens of perks. How can you not theorycraft?

Please explain how the above has no evidence or isn’t remotely true.

There is more theorycrafting in CoD than in Vengeance.

I don’t know why I keep replying

SaffronCitrusflower · December 1

After reading Jessica's post it's obvious vengeance was never just a test.

I'll be refraining from playing any version of vengeance from here on out. If ZOS can pledge not to do their jobs and make an effort to fix Cyrodiil, then I can pledge not to play their vengeance abomination.

SaffronCitrusflower · December 1

Tandor wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

On PS NA it is already one bar until sometime in the late afternoon most days.

That's a function of demographics more than anything else. 50% of MMO players are in full time employment, a further 25% are full time students. Average age is around 26, but the largest age groups is 25 - 40.

Also, only 50% play more than 18 hours a week.

Also, a significant proportion of the off-peak players will be quite a lot older than those age groups, TES having attracted a lot of players who started with the early games 40 odd years ago and came to ESO via Skyrim. My guess is that the oldest age group in the game is unlikely to include as many avid PvPers as the younger ones.

I think you've got it backwards. It's the older generations that focus on PvP. The younger generations are the ones that tend to want everything handed to them without putting forth much effort or any at all. Being good at PvP takes years of effort and time.

xR3ACTORx · December 1

SneaK wrote: »

I don’t know why I keep replying

You are free to ignore if you have the feeling that you are talking to a bot or a wall.

Just a reminder 😎

BardokRedSnow · December 1

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its a zerg fest that showcases the overhealing issue.

You mean normal build Cyro?

Yes actually, which is why I said it showcases the issue... and as I've said pretty much in every pvp topic ever.

Difference is its ten times worse with Vengeance because the only counter play is to zerg.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Personally, I'm against Vengeance replacing normal Cyrodiil.

I'd rather have Vengeance Cyro than Subclassed Cyro.

Just give us a mode with no hybridization, scribing, or subclassing.
Call it:
Haderus/Scourge

You mean Vengeance?!

Nope.

Notice I didn’t say “no builds, theorycrafting, uniqueness, or playstyles”.

Like I said, you mean Vengeance?!

You have access to all the skill lines, just not hybridized morphs.
You have different perks that are PvP orientated rather than the more general CP.
Between the skills and the perks you can have different playstyles.

Listen dude you're not getting us on board with vengeance, you want it so be it but please stop pretending what he's saying is asking for vengeance. I want to be able to theorycraft and try out new builds, there's no such thing in vengeance. Its a zerg fest that showcases the overhealing issue.

Im not playing a game that takes away all gear grinding progression and tells me what skills I am allowed to use in pvp, there's no argument here, less options in vengeance doesn't = more build diversity. Stop it.

I'm not trying to do anything other than point out the flaws in arguments. Flaws such as "Its a zerg fest that showcases the overhealing issue." - like Cyro isn't that now. I don't particularly like Vengeance. I think there were more elegant solutions to the problems.

And who is taking away the gear grinding progression? The tests aren't finished yet. They have intimated that sets will be re-introduced but with lighter procs, and there will be a new mid-size PvP zone with full access to current everything.

You both are using the same fallacy of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Because current cyrodiil has issues, ones that could be resolved in a day mind you, we should instead nuke the whole campaign in favor of Vengeance? That shouldnt even be an option they're looking at, nor should it be a two week endeavor the rest of us have to suffer through for burned out pvpers like xylena and the pve crowd.

The lies and manipulation of this so called test we knew wasn't just a test from the start is inexcusable, I dont wanna hear "Its just a test bro" when now both options they're looking at make vengeance permanent, and one of those options is no greyhost at all.

olsborg · December 1

Subclassing, certain proccsets and other sets that clearly askews the balance (rallying cry) the amount of blocking and how easy it is to do so with no real cost to sustain all the while you are casting self healing. Creation of burst(kill windows) while being on an extremely tanky build (also thanks to blocking) due to scribed skills(contingency) that all will go off with delayed burst skills(subclassing).
It all creates a stale and unbalanced cyrodiil that require very little to no skill to pull off. And anyone not dipping into this meta...will either feel weakened or will succumb and foreclose the "play as you want" and instead play as the meta dictates. Always has meta been strong, but never has it been this unbalanced vs anything that is not meta.

I welcome Vengeance.

Sidenote: Ballgroups are also ruining the playexperience on normal cyrodiil campaigns.

DoofusMax · December 1

Three Dominion, three Covenant, and two Pact toons will be participating. Well, maybe not the Necro; he's on timeout for bad behavior until he learns to not leave corpses laying in the middle of the floor where others can step on them. Not quite as bad as Legos, but still yucky. They all have a good time with Vengeance.

ShutUpitsRed · December 1

SolarRune wrote: »

The bigger issues created with most skills not firing properly since the animation updates is seriously going to compromise any results they want to get from this 'test'. Don't really see the point in it going ahead until that is resolved.

Gosh I didn't even think of this. This test is going to be even more useless than the one they ran alongside the Undaunted event.

xDeusEJRx · December 1

olsborg wrote: »

Subclassing, certain proccsets and other sets that clearly askews the balance (rallying cry) the amount of blocking and how easy it is to do so with no real cost to sustain all the while you are casting self healing. Creation of burst(kill windows) while being on an extremely tanky build (also thanks to blocking) due to scribed skills(contingency) that all will go off with delayed burst skills(subclassing).
It all creates a stale and unbalanced cyrodiil that require very little to no skill to pull off. And anyone not dipping into this meta...will either feel weakened or will succumb and foreclose the "play as you want" and instead play as the meta dictates. Always has meta been strong, but never has it been this unbalanced vs anything that is not meta.

I welcome Vengeance.

Sidenote: Ballgroups are also ruining the playexperience on normal cyrodiil campaigns.

While I don't disagree with much of what you say, in fact I probably agree 90%.

What really needs to be said is why these problems exist in the first place.

It has always been due to ZOS's negligence and lack of accountability. For years zos has gotten away with "we're working on it" and a constant "year of performance" in regard to performance. I was around to remember the PC AoE test where they tried limitinig AOES, as well as no proc, and now vengeance. This is going on some 6+ years now.

Players need to start holding zos more accountable for a 6+ year negligent endeavor now. Anyone else remember the server re-architecture project after the hardware refresh? That was completely abandoned by ZOS and no one cared.

Regarding subclassing, it's a similar situation of ZOS. People have been complaining about the constant powercreep patch after patch where player stats kept skyrocketing and no meaningful change to address any of it since hybridization.
They still have yet to undo the free stats they gave from CP 2.0 that they claimed was to "ease you into the new cp system". Not to mention the lopsided hybridization changes that benefits some classes more than others.

They all come back to ZOS being negligent with their work, and no one seems to care enough because people quickly stop talking about these problems.

BardokRedSnow · December 1

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Subclassing, certain proccsets and other sets that clearly askews the balance (rallying cry) the amount of blocking and how easy it is to do so with no real cost to sustain all the while you are casting self healing. Creation of burst(kill windows) while being on an extremely tanky build (also thanks to blocking) due to scribed skills(contingency) that all will go off with delayed burst skills(subclassing).
It all creates a stale and unbalanced cyrodiil that require very little to no skill to pull off. And anyone not dipping into this meta...will either feel weakened or will succumb and foreclose the "play as you want" and instead play as the meta dictates. Always has meta been strong, but never has it been this unbalanced vs anything that is not meta.

I welcome Vengeance.

Sidenote: Ballgroups are also ruining the playexperience on normal cyrodiil campaigns.

While I don't disagree with much of what you say, in fact I probably agree 90%.

What really needs to be said is why these problems exist in the first place.

It has always been due to ZOS's negligence and lack of accountability. For years zos has gotten away with "we're working on it" and a constant "year of performance" in regard to performance. I was around to remember the PC AoE test where they tried limitinig AOES, as well as no proc, and now vengeance. This is going on some 6+ years now.

Players need to start holding zos more accountable for a 6+ year negligent endeavor now. Anyone else remember the server re-architecture project after the hardware refresh? That was completely abandoned by ZOS and no one cared.

Regarding subclassing, it's a similar situation of ZOS. People have been complaining about the constant powercreep patch after patch where player stats kept skyrocketing and no meaningful change to address any of it since hybridization.
They still have yet to undo the free stats they gave from CP 2.0 that they claimed was to "ease you into the new cp system". Not to mention the lopsided hybridization changes that benefits some classes more than others.

They all come back to ZOS being negligent with their work, and no one seems to care enough because people quickly stop talking about these problems.

Well said, Zos caused this problem and instead of continuing to address it and listen to the vets' suggestions, their solution is making a game mode they will need less manpower to maintain, in theory, and giving up on greyhost altogether. Maintenance mode pvp.

Four_Fingers · December 1

People are going to be so surprised when the same organized groups beat them in Vengeance.
Why? because we make the effort.
You didn't see groups in the tests because most agreed to sit it out in protest.
So those that return will be just as good if other players don't take the time to use countermeasures.

BardokRedSnow · December 1

Four_Fingers wrote: »

People are going to be so surprised when the same organized groups beat them in Vengeance.
Why? because we make the effort.
You didn't see groups in the tests because most agreed to sit it out in protest.
So those that return will be just as good if other players don't take the time to use countermeasures.

There are no countermeasures in vengeance except zerging.

StihlReign · December 1

Vengeance will suffer from the same issues that plague GH. The devs have already re-introduced heal stacking. Experienced players (by hours played) will master the technique, everyone else will be slaughtered/complain.

ShutUpitsRed · December 1

Four_Fingers wrote: »

People are going to be so surprised when the same organized groups beat them in Vengeance.
Why? because we make the effort.
You didn't see groups in the tests because most agreed to sit it out in protest.
So those that return will be just as good if other players don't take the time to use countermeasures.

So much of this discourse boils down to "I should be able to jump into PvP with no experience or gear or effort and hold my own against an organized group that's been perfecting their setup working together for years" it's not even funny. Every complaint about "ball groups" I've ever seen is just people mad that ape together strong.

loosej · December 1

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

while failing to understand people are different, with different preferences, point of views, and experiences.

Not even remotely true. Pointing out that an opinion has no evidence to back it up, or pointing out something isn't remotely true is none of those things. Things such as:

SneaK wrote: »

And we all think it’s neat that they “intimated” theorycrafting might survive on life support for a while longer.

There are dozens of skills and dozens of perks. How can you not theorycraft?

Please explain how the above has no evidence or isn’t remotely true.

There is more theorycrafting in CoD than in Vengeance.

I don’t know why I keep replying

No reason to waste your time, energy or keyboard, the motivation for the bad faith arguments is crystal clear: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685437/zos-i-need-a-job

BardokRedSnow · December 1

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

People are going to be so surprised when the same organized groups beat them in Vengeance.
Why? because we make the effort.
You didn't see groups in the tests because most agreed to sit it out in protest.
So those that return will be just as good if other players don't take the time to use countermeasures.

So much of this discourse boils down to "I should be able to jump into PvP with no experience or gear or effort and hold my own against an organized group that's been perfecting their setup working together for years" it's not even funny. Every complaint about "ball groups" I've ever seen is just people mad that ape together strong.

Ape together strong always existed, thats not what ballgroups are. Ballgroups were always a big issue when faced, but the difference now is zos have nerfed most of what we had in our kit to combat them. They still farmed people when azura's and plague was strong, for instance. But on occasion we were still able to kill them with these.

Zos caters to ballgroups, nerfs things that we have to fight them, they cause lag, and instead of helping us end the fights with them sooner with these tools, or by nerfing healing, they're forcing vengeance on us for two weeks with the threat of possibly removing them altogether.

Lag balls are the main reason the server melts and people crash, along with hammer, which usually entices lag balls. Its not just the occasional zergling pver that wants vengeance that dislikes ballgroups.

Uristqwerty · December 1

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

After reading Jessica's post it's obvious vengeance was never just a test.
[...]

Seems clear that it was always a test. But rather, the big question is what were they testing?

If their original goal was to gather data on how to improve the servers for regular PvP, clearly the tests showed it wasn't practical. If they knew from the start that they'd only get acceptable performance by making a stripped-down version, then all along they've been testing how much of the game they can safely re-add. Worst case if you're feeling bitter, they were testing what the community will tolerate rather than technical aspects, or how little they can get away with re-adding before enough of the community finds it acceptable.

Skorro · December 1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

On PS NA it is already one bar until sometime in the late afternoon most days.

That's a function of demographics more than anything else. 50% of MMO players are in full time employment, a further 25% are full time students. Average age is around 26, but the largest age groups is 25 - 40.

Also, only 50% play more than 18 hours a week.

I have to ask where you're getting these numbers.

I know how to read studies and use Google.

You know that 90% of statistics on the Internet are made up right 🙃

tomofhyrule · December 1

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

People are going to be so surprised when the same organized groups beat them in Vengeance.
Why? because we make the effort.
You didn't see groups in the tests because most agreed to sit it out in protest.
So those that return will be just as good if other players don't take the time to use countermeasures.

So much of this discourse boils down to "I should be able to jump into PvP with no experience or gear or effort and hold my own against an organized group that's been perfecting their setup working together for years" it's not even funny. Every complaint about "ball groups" I've ever seen is just people mad that ape together strong.

There is nuance in this discussion though.

“Apes together strong” absolutely explains why an organized 12-man group should have the strength of 25 or so zerglings because of organization.

“Apes together strong” should not imply that an organized 12-man group should have the strength of 120 people and require a full faction stack to have a chance.

There comes a point when the benefits of organization go from ‘reasonable’ to ‘unbalanced.’ And it doesn’t help that every “ball-buster” set to counter them has gotten smacked with the nerfhammer or has ended up being used by said ballgroups to be even more effective against zergs.

SneaK · December 1

loosej wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

while failing to understand people are different, with different preferences, point of views, and experiences.

Not even remotely true. Pointing out that an opinion has no evidence to back it up, or pointing out something isn't remotely true is none of those things. Things such as:

SneaK wrote: »

And we all think it’s neat that they “intimated” theorycrafting might survive on life support for a while longer.

There are dozens of skills and dozens of perks. How can you not theorycraft?

Please explain how the above has no evidence or isn’t remotely true.

There is more theorycrafting in CoD than in Vengeance.

I don’t know why I keep replying

No reason to waste your time, energy or keyboard, the motivation for the bad faith arguments is crystal clear: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685437/zos-i-need-a-job

Ohhhhhh Wowzers

ZOS_Icy · December 1

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

edward_frigidhands · December 1

loosej wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

while failing to understand people are different, with different preferences, point of views, and experiences.

Not even remotely true. Pointing out that an opinion has no evidence to back it up, or pointing out something isn't remotely true is none of those things. Things such as:

SneaK wrote: »

And we all think it’s neat that they “intimated” theorycrafting might survive on life support for a while longer.

There are dozens of skills and dozens of perks. How can you not theorycraft?

Please explain how the above has no evidence or isn’t remotely true.

There is more theorycrafting in CoD than in Vengeance.

I don’t know why I keep replying

No reason to waste your time, energy or keyboard, the motivation for the bad faith arguments is crystal clear: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685437/zos-i-need-a-job

Why am I not shocked.