ESO PvP (A Red Sun Rises)

mocap · November 28

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

YandereGirlfriend · November 28

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

Though I think by now Yandere you know I do, as I know you're in AOC and have a bias to those groups same as I have a bias against them. We might disagree on style of play but being on DC you probably at least can understand everyone else's frustration... I highly doubt you all want everyone literally in a ball lol, that would pose many issues for everyone involved including you.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

mocap wrote: »

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

People like to win, duh and also reality is most players aren't aware their balls exist, numerous times DC players say that we don't have ballgroups when we have 3 currently, because as I said, usually they're on the opposite end of the map.

People using overpowered sets also usually dont complain but obviously they can be a problem. Its up to zos to balance these aspects of the game. I don't blame ballgroups for existing, I blame them for suggesting everyone should just ball up when thats the last thing they want, and pretending their style of play and inability to more easily counter it, isn't a problem.

We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos.

Ostonoha · November 28

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

If I was AD you'd be correct, PC NA DC does not have the most balls. You also seem to have misunderstood the point, which isnt that EP has the most balls, but that they typically do not fight and make a move without them. AD and DC will fight regardless, meanwhile EP stays in their keeps usually until they've built lockout faction numbers, and a ball has advanced somewhere.

I also fight on my own often. Make whatever assumptions you wish. We both know it is cope.

Cap on the gvg, maybe back in the day but now no they do not, they message at best to do the opposite and avoid killing eachother and messing up eachother's ball farms. Literally seen this happen from one of their discords I won't name here.

Perceive it as bitter as you like if it makes it easier to dismiss, but these threads wouldnt keep popping up on a daily basis if it weren't true.

Ostonoha · November 28

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

If I was AD you'd be correct, PC NA DC does not have the most balls. I also fight on my own often. Make whatever assumptions you wish.

Cap on the gvg, maybe back in the day but now no they do not, they message at best to do the opposite and avoid killing eachother and messing up eachother's ball farms. Literally seen this happen from one of their discords I won't name here.

Perceive it as bitter as you like if it makes it easier to dismiss, but these threads wouldnt keep popping up on a daily basis if it weren't true.

Assumption not being made

I would disagree on that point about AD having the most. I only ever see 1 group maybe 2 at a time overlapping in schedule since most of the main groups share the same people. Same with EP. But DC during primetime might have 4-5 groups rolling at once. I am not talking 5-7 people in a "ball" im talking full on 10-12 mans.

They might ignore each other in a farm that is true. BUT to say they don't fight? You dont see them ruin a keep farm because they don't want to zerg down people. Example If I see a guild from AD fighting a faction of fellow EP. I could join the 30+ EP with my group and kill the AD group but lets think about this. How fun is it to zerg a group down? That is not a challenge at all for me and my group and therefore not fun for us so why would we do it? I might stand to the side and watch and wait for the EP to die out to get a gvg but I am not going to full zerg them (unless theres something like scrolls/emp/keeps ext to defend which are different circumstances which every guild leader for the most point understands) It is not a matter of not wanting to fight, its that zerging is not fun.

That also has nothing to do with balls respecting one another. The same can be said for groups of 3-8 people. Why zerg em with a faction? Its a waste of time and go out and find a different and more challenging fight.

Vulkunne · 4:30AM

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

The way most ball groups act towards everyone else, as I had said, the abuse, the hostility, unnecessarily, the coveted saddle that has ridden people's PvP efforts into the ground... for years... no its really not hard at all to bash a ball group in any thread.

What should I say. What can we do here, they wasted everyone's time but um were all mighty morphin dressed? Let's see um they killed the entire server so quickly with the same bombs and corner-busters, doing ... the same thing, same tired AOE ult trap attack over and over again, same damage, wiping everyone quickly. You played with your friends, ok well um what about my friends? Which I'll be honest with you, I don't have any friends. But in theory, if I did, what about us? I guess we just need to make some room for the fabrication teams that have made themselves nye unkillable, not by chance but by design resulting from a callous and unsportsmanlike intent.

I'm struggling to say one positive thing. Because even when a Ball Group 'does good' you know what happens? The other side brings one in. If they don't have one, they make one. Violence begets more violence, and the circle is never quite complete. This faction decides to be progressive and now has two ball groups, great, the other factions follow in the tacky and unnecessary Nuclear Arms Race with ball groups both large and small.

Bitter or not... I'm being real about this and am just sick and tired of dealing with both this and people telling me I need to just roll over accept the way things are... because they have said 'so' and offer no explanation when asked otherwise. The way forward for Cyrodiil is going to involve courage and listening to everyone who's a stakeholder in PvP. The truth is bitter sometimes.

Vulkunne · 4:42AM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

Really.

See I'm not going to bother with a reply. People look; we are a joke to them. And by we, what I mean to say is, you are also a joke to them. Though I have been known to act the fool on more than one occasion, it seems like anyone else who disagrees with them they try and make into a punchline.

They have the ability to make such a strong group, which undoubtedly requires some pretty intuitive understanding of specific in-game fundamentals, including their performance, testing, etc. Like a small factory. They can understand that but can't understand why others have hard feelings towards their methods?

So, when I decide to go gawking don't get mad at me either?

BardokRedSnow · 5:08AM

Ok maybe Yandere had a point lol

Vulkunne · 5:22AM

Ostonoha wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Hello ZOS,

now with all the empty servers. I'm talking about the exclusive power consolidations between things like ball groups, bombers, emps and certain PvP Guilds (who despite what some of them might say) have proven themselves to be almost completely elitist in practice as well as non-inclusive towards other players in same faction(s) at like almost every time I've noticed them login.

I cannot Trust that when I login to Cyrodiil, that my organized group, with comms, with heals and so forth can play the game reasonably against a pre-made ball group, completely fabricated to maximize every single bonus imaginable (and some unconventional) and then for the most part never die. Now, I'm not specifically against ball groups, but I'm using this as an example because the reason PvP is dying is because the casuals, the new folks, the part-time vets, hell even the vets themselves, you know... like solo players? ok they're unable to compete. PvP stops when one of these fabricated 'monstrosities', these abominations, come around. And it's not just ball groups. Do we really need Emp? Why? No one can kill the Emps lol. Emp bombers have been known to wipe entire servers, that includes both factions. Over time, this has become a very visible situation, and it makes people stop and ask what am I logging in for? Is this what I paid for?

It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy.

This is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. As a casual player, as a veteran player even, what tool in my toolkit should I use to have even a 2% chance of taking down this ball group or surviving a bomber? There is virtually none unless its setup thru a complicated and time-consuming process, if that will even work.

. We're sick and tired of the shenanigans and stupid gotchas that come from bombers ending a PvP battle and ball groups doing the like. If one bomber can kill that many people, then why are we there? Just to see how awesome you are right?
That's it. I'm a solo player, I'm a man of my word and I stand my ground. I don't need 8 to 15 people healing me while I PvP. This is immoral and the current situation in Cyrodiil is the results.... death.

.

This seems like a post because 1 random person or hey maybe even 2-3 people out of the 100s of people who are in pvp guilds were mean and so you are blasting all of them as being "toxic" which seems from this post is more to do with you not liking how they play based on how you call it exploiting and essentially painting it as bullying and "Toxic" vs what they actually said or behave as a person. Most if not all of the ball group leaders are actually rather kind people who are willing to take people and train them to learn to group. Sure there's some headcases but that's just life. The majority of them are friendly and don't take themselves too serious.

Complaining about emperor buffs at this stage of ESO? Emperor has been gutted so badly its a joke at this point compared to what it was before.

Rush of Agony has been also gutted to the point if you or really anyone at this point are being pulled by it (unless its behind you and you had no chance to see it) honestly its you who are at fault. Ball groups use it just to keep other groups honest at this point in gvgs. The smug and coy comment by you really does show you are projecting your own angry feelings on other players and its 1 sided affair of anger coming from yourself.

Dying to bombers happen You want to know why its needed? To prevent entire factions from steamrolling smaller factions. I have been in this game since beta. The amount of battles turned because of a few well placed bombs by a solo or a group has saved or taken keeps/scrolls. You worry about having a 2% chance of making a difference, try making a difference when all that matter is how many people and not how many people know what they are doing. That is what vengence is. There is no punishment for just stacking bodies. You want to see mindless pvp? which is what ball grouping gets called, watch what happens when the 50-100 AD steamroll across the server in the vengence camp unopposed. Half the time the only reason today scrolls get retaken or keeps even flipped is due to a ball group or a coordinated group flipping a battle.

You sound very high and mighty yourself saying you dont need 8-15 people heailing you. You must be sooooo good. Fact is you are the one showing your elitist attitude here with comments like that. This is an mmopvp game focused on open world and group play. If you are that upset about people using groups and planning things might I suggest playing a single player game like solitaire?

I do agree some nerfs need to happen to lower the power of ball groups. But some of you need to stop thinking your snipe or poison inject spam is actually an effective counter to groups. It would be a much better game tbh if groups actually knew how to play instead of standing around mindless. Sadly actually attempting to play the game is "elitist" or "sweaty" Which is funny considering most of the people in the "sweaty" groups are 40+ and on something laughing the entire time and not even taking it that serious. Just know that when you die to some of these groups you are dying to drunken grandma.

If you want to actually fix pvp. Increase group sizes back to 24.

Revert the base 1000 wep and spell damage we were given. Heck lower the base damage and healing across the board.

Increase raw damage given from having stat pools like we had years ago. This will make people swap out of high health builds while still having damage.

Bring back bleeds ext having 100% armor and block ignore to kill tanks. Among other things..... movement speed being one of them.

Ok that's fine. I haven't said anything that wasn't true. Many of my experiences have actually happened several times. I understand this is essentially me talking with no vids or ability to reproduce evidence and so you know, you are all welcome to treat what I'm saying in whatever way feels appropriate for you.

At this point, this certainly is not a goodbye thread as I do PvE quite a bit and do small scale PvP. But I am doing this for me because I'm not going to stay silent forever and defend them.

I've had enough. So, they can say what they like as people will do, but you all really need to remember something... this is not just about me. It affects you also. I mean, unless you enjoy PvPing under these conditions, so I really don't. You know? I remember a time when there were only a few bombers and a few ball groups. Not a big deal. But it's like now it's everywhere and who are these people that no one can contradict them?

People are always telling me about what they would have done had they been there and doing the right thing. Ok, I was there and I've done the right thing. If no changes are made and everyone just keeps going along with this stuff, then don't complain about Cyrodiil being empty. It seems like everyone who says something gets rained on or run off the game. For my part, I don't even go to Cyrodiil primetime anymore. If a ball group arrives at a keep or the emp, I just leave. It would be crazy to stay.

Let me leave you with an example.

This is perhaps, one of the meanest things to happen to me yet in Cyrodiil, a ball group's response when trying to run a scroll. At least half the group were DKs, and so this was before subclassing at the time, and I was constantly pulled for roughly 10 to 15 minutes. If you've ever seen a western movie where someone gets lashed to death, that's a close fit to it. I was chased and instead of being killed, just lashed while my own faction sat there and wouldn't help. Just constantly getting pulled in random directions with chains constantly hitting me. It was awesome kinda, but it was also a pretty mean-spirited thing to do. So, pardon me for not having gentle feelings towards bad people.

Gabriel_H · 8:43AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Im sure you'd like to believe that lol. Fact is I dont enjoy following crown like you so I typically only play with one other person as a duo at most. Occasionally I do join a buddy of mine's group, Jaypou and Chaos that moved here from EU, fantastic healer. Cool dudes, but you can ask them, I'm too solo coded lol. DK solo is very fun for me, I enjoy the freedom.

And if you see my post here in the beginning of the thread, I show a video of this, with an old duo of mine, blowing up one of your precious ballgroups with plaguebreak lol.

You do not have to play the meta to win, meta is defined by people who play well in ways others dont until they are copied, and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions.

On top of the fact that these ballgroups are so arrogant that they rarely actually help their faction and would rather troll with scroll or something before dying in a keep across the map... The only people that hold such importance of ballgroups are ballgroup enjoyers themselves.

Also depends entirely on what you define "winning" as. Cyro isn't PvP, it's AvA.

Ballgroups primary obejective is to kill players, but that isn't the goal of AvA - which is to control the map. Killing players can of course lead to that, but the end-goal is different.

I remember doing a scroll re-capture, where I had to run it across the entire map. I got it out from a blue keep, under the nose of a yellow ball group. I'd got about half-way home, little escort, when the same ballgroup ported into the nearest keep to me, chased me down, killed me and my meager escort, then continued on to hunt others while ignoring there was a scroll right there.

I've seen this sort of thing many times from many ballgroups. Ignoring the actual objective in favour of simply killing players. I'd call that borderline griefing.

If people want to play follow the leader, and I don't know any serious PvPers who do, then by all means let them, but the complaints that their preferred playstyle is then given counters just further shows how un-serious they are as PvPers.

moonio · 10:26AM

mocap wrote: »

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

Because everyone else has actively disengaged at this point.. there is nothing for the non ball group players to do but look on and think. 'well ok we got some keeps' now what.