ESO PvP (A Red Sun Rises)

mocap · November 28

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

YandereGirlfriend · November 28

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

Though I think by now Yandere you know I do, as I know you're in AOC and have a bias to those groups same as I have a bias against them. We might disagree on style of play but being on DC you probably at least can understand everyone else's frustration... I highly doubt you all want everyone literally in a ball lol, that would pose many issues for everyone involved including you.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

mocap wrote: »

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

People like to win, duh and also reality is most players aren't aware their balls exist, numerous times DC players say that we don't have ballgroups when we have 3 currently, because as I said, usually they're on the opposite end of the map.

People using overpowered sets also usually dont complain but obviously they can be a problem. Its up to zos to balance these aspects of the game. I don't blame ballgroups for existing, I blame them for suggesting everyone should just ball up when thats the last thing they want, and pretending their style of play and inability to more easily counter it, isn't a problem.

We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos.

Ostonoha · November 28

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

BardokRedSnow · November 28

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

If I was AD you'd be correct, PC NA DC does not have the most balls. You also seem to have misunderstood the point, which isnt that EP has the most balls, but that they typically do not fight and make a move without them. AD and DC will fight regardless, meanwhile EP stays in their keeps usually until they've built lockout faction numbers, and a ball has advanced somewhere.

I also fight on my own often. Make whatever assumptions you wish. We both know it is cope.

Cap on the gvg, maybe back in the day but now no they do not, they message at best to do the opposite and avoid killing eachother and messing up eachother's ball farms. Literally seen this happen from one of their discords I won't name here.

Perceive it as bitter as you like if it makes it easier to dismiss, but these threads wouldnt keep popping up on a daily basis if it weren't true.

Ostonoha · November 28

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

Not bitter, they're a problem that zos needs to dismantle, and its a fact that instead of doing that, they've strengthened this sort of play while actively discouraging solo play as best they can.

And while doing so and acting as though grouping up and using constant heals on a bomber and ult dumping is skilled play, these same players act like they're elite when the majority (not all) of them cant stand on their own skill. You can choose to play as you like but the developers literally cater to this brand of play, nerfed everything that could counter it without massive zergs and siege, and is also the main reason greyhost sees instability in pc na at least. And now because of that instability, we may even lose greyhost altogether. All to "solve" a problem they created and enabled in the first place.

Of course they're gonna see criticism, especially when those players wanna act like its not true and gaslight the rest of the fanbase.

wait whose the one acting elite here? You and others actually do seem rather bitter.

I cant quote both threads but you say "and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions."

You do realize the faction you play on has the most ball groups right? There's like 3-4 EP groups that run and they share essentially the same people.

All you are showing here is your sheer ignorance. You and many others are not "solo" players because you run without a group. You are a solo player if you go and fight on your own. Not if you stack inside a faction and are ungrouped. That is what you and many others cant seem to understand.

"We all know it is, case in point most ballgroups avoid fighting eachother majority of the time. They don't want to fight other balls, they want to fight pugs and 12v1 solos".

considering most groups msg one another and meet to fight in a field somewhere. Happens all the time. You do not see so you do not think it happens.

If I was AD you'd be correct, PC NA DC does not have the most balls. I also fight on my own often. Make whatever assumptions you wish.

Cap on the gvg, maybe back in the day but now no they do not, they message at best to do the opposite and avoid killing eachother and messing up eachother's ball farms. Literally seen this happen from one of their discords I won't name here.

Perceive it as bitter as you like if it makes it easier to dismiss, but these threads wouldnt keep popping up on a daily basis if it weren't true.

Assumption not being made

I would disagree on that point about AD having the most. I only ever see 1 group maybe 2 at a time overlapping in schedule since most of the main groups share the same people. Same with EP. But DC during primetime might have 4-5 groups rolling at once. I am not talking 5-7 people in a "ball" im talking full on 10-12 mans.

They might ignore each other in a farm that is true. BUT to say they don't fight? You dont see them ruin a keep farm because they don't want to zerg down people. Example If I see a guild from AD fighting a faction of fellow EP. I could join the 30+ EP with my group and kill the AD group but lets think about this. How fun is it to zerg a group down? That is not a challenge at all for me and my group and therefore not fun for us so why would we do it? I might stand to the side and watch and wait for the EP to die out to get a gvg but I am not going to full zerg them (unless theres something like scrolls/emp/keeps ext to defend which are different circumstances which every guild leader for the most point understands) It is not a matter of not wanting to fight, its that zerging is not fun.

That also has nothing to do with balls respecting one another. The same can be said for groups of 3-8 people. Why zerg em with a faction? Its a waste of time and go out and find a different and more challenging fight.

Vulkunne · 4:30AM

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

The way most ball groups act towards everyone else, as I had said, the abuse, the hostility, unnecessarily, the coveted saddle that has ridden people's PvP efforts into the ground... for years... no its really not hard at all to bash a ball group in any thread.

What should I say. What can we do here, they wasted everyone's time but um were all mighty morphin dressed? Let's see um they killed the entire server so quickly with the same bombs and corner-busters, doing ... the same thing, same tired AOE ult trap attack over and over again, same damage, wiping everyone quickly. You played with your friends, ok well um what about my friends? Which I'll be honest with you, I don't have any friends. But in theory, if I did, what about us? I guess we just need to make some room for the fabrication teams that have made themselves nye unkillable, not by chance but by design resulting from a callous and unsportsmanlike intent.

I'm struggling to say one positive thing. Because even when a Ball Group 'does good' you know what happens? The other side brings one in. If they don't have one, they make one. Violence begets more violence, and the circle is never quite complete. This faction decides to be progressive and now has two ball groups, great, the other factions follow in the tacky and unnecessary Nuclear Arms Race with ball groups both large and small.

Bitter or not... I'm being real about this and am just sick and tired of dealing with both this and people telling me I need to just roll over accept the way things are... because they have said 'so' and offer no explanation when asked otherwise. The way forward for Cyrodiil is going to involve courage and listening to everyone who's a stakeholder in PvP. The truth is bitter sometimes.

Vulkunne · 4:42AM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would not mind seeing HOTs and DOTs limited to one instance per morph. Similarly to how buffs and debuffs do not stack with themselves.

Obviously there is hidden complexity to that "simple" solution (e.g. whose copy takes precedence), though.

Abilities and sets in general could stand to be simplified and de-bloated as well. In PvP and PvE. Like compare the description of Steel Tornado to Cephaliarch's Flail and we can easily see that one of these abilities is NOT like the other and that one is taxing the server much more than the other to cast.

You can make the same observations with something like Vicious Death vs. Azureblight vs. Pariah vs. Hircine's. Vicious Death is extremely performant and only fires once and under very specific circumstances. Meanwhile, Azureblight applies unique "stacks" to targets that all have to be individually tracked with separate cooldowns per target. Plus, it incentivizes mindless sticky DOT spamming, which we already mentioned above as being a source of server calculation spam. Pariah is egregious because it is constantly running in the background, checking the wearer's health and updating their Armor value accordingly. Hircine's is continuously running area checks for group-mates over a vast distance and then dynamically updating their stats.

Which is to say that players often get it twisted when they think about the performance impact of various sets. Vicious Death gets mentioned quite a bit but that is actually a terrible example to use because the set is very low cost in terms of calculations. We should have MORE sets like Vicious Death! But sets that apply persistent effects and/or are continuously updating themselves in the background are where players should really be looking. This is true for other game effects (like Vampire Undeath) and CP as well, where something like Occult Overload as a point event is much lighter to run than Pain's Refuge, etc.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Love how every thread becomes a ball group bash thread by bitter people who mock others for grouping with friends and decided to play not casual but maybe organised & just use whats given by the game

So true. It's fatiguing. Nearly always by folk who have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

Really.

See I'm not going to bother with a reply. People look; we are a joke to them. And by we, what I mean to say is, the regular player is are also a joke to them. Though I have been known to act the fool on more than one occasion, it seems like anyone else who disagrees with them they try and make into a punchline.

They have the ability to make such a strong group, which undoubtedly requires some pretty intuitive understanding of specific in-game fundamentals, including their performance, testing, etc. Like a small factory. They can understand that but can't understand why others have hard feelings towards their methods?

So, then PvP wise, as a solo & casual player, that only really leaves me with ganking and BGs (which of course I don't prefer BGs anymore). No casual group is going to get very far on its own so then I guess don't blame me for the way things are?!?!!

BardokRedSnow · 5:08AM

Ok maybe Yandere had a point lol

Vulkunne · 5:22AM

Ostonoha wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Hello ZOS,

now with all the empty servers. I'm talking about the exclusive power consolidations between things like ball groups, bombers, emps and certain PvP Guilds (who despite what some of them might say) have proven themselves to be almost completely elitist in practice as well as non-inclusive towards other players in same faction(s) at like almost every time I've noticed them login.

I cannot Trust that when I login to Cyrodiil, that my organized group, with comms, with heals and so forth can play the game reasonably against a pre-made ball group, completely fabricated to maximize every single bonus imaginable (and some unconventional) and then for the most part never die. Now, I'm not specifically against ball groups, but I'm using this as an example because the reason PvP is dying is because the casuals, the new folks, the part-time vets, hell even the vets themselves, you know... like solo players? ok they're unable to compete. PvP stops when one of these fabricated 'monstrosities', these abominations, come around. And it's not just ball groups. Do we really need Emp? Why? No one can kill the Emps lol. Emp bombers have been known to wipe entire servers, that includes both factions. Over time, this has become a very visible situation, and it makes people stop and ask what am I logging in for? Is this what I paid for?

It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy.

This is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. As a casual player, as a veteran player even, what tool in my toolkit should I use to have even a 2% chance of taking down this ball group or surviving a bomber? There is virtually none unless its setup thru a complicated and time-consuming process, if that will even work.

. We're sick and tired of the shenanigans and stupid gotchas that come from bombers ending a PvP battle and ball groups doing the like. If one bomber can kill that many people, then why are we there? Just to see how awesome you are right?
That's it. I'm a solo player, I'm a man of my word and I stand my ground. I don't need 8 to 15 people healing me while I PvP. This is immoral and the current situation in Cyrodiil is the results.... death.

.

This seems like a post because 1 random person or hey maybe even 2-3 people out of the 100s of people who are in pvp guilds were mean and so you are blasting all of them as being "toxic" which seems from this post is more to do with you not liking how they play based on how you call it exploiting and essentially painting it as bullying and "Toxic" vs what they actually said or behave as a person. Most if not all of the ball group leaders are actually rather kind people who are willing to take people and train them to learn to group. Sure there's some headcases but that's just life. The majority of them are friendly and don't take themselves too serious.

Complaining about emperor buffs at this stage of ESO? Emperor has been gutted so badly its a joke at this point compared to what it was before.

Rush of Agony has been also gutted to the point if you or really anyone at this point are being pulled by it (unless its behind you and you had no chance to see it) honestly its you who are at fault. Ball groups use it just to keep other groups honest at this point in gvgs. The smug and coy comment by you really does show you are projecting your own angry feelings on other players and its 1 sided affair of anger coming from yourself.

Dying to bombers happen You want to know why its needed? To prevent entire factions from steamrolling smaller factions. I have been in this game since beta. The amount of battles turned because of a few well placed bombs by a solo or a group has saved or taken keeps/scrolls. You worry about having a 2% chance of making a difference, try making a difference when all that matter is how many people and not how many people know what they are doing. That is what vengence is. There is no punishment for just stacking bodies. You want to see mindless pvp? which is what ball grouping gets called, watch what happens when the 50-100 AD steamroll across the server in the vengence camp unopposed. Half the time the only reason today scrolls get retaken or keeps even flipped is due to a ball group or a coordinated group flipping a battle.

You sound very high and mighty yourself saying you dont need 8-15 people heailing you. You must be sooooo good. Fact is you are the one showing your elitist attitude here with comments like that. This is an mmopvp game focused on open world and group play. If you are that upset about people using groups and planning things might I suggest playing a single player game like solitaire?

I do agree some nerfs need to happen to lower the power of ball groups. But some of you need to stop thinking your snipe or poison inject spam is actually an effective counter to groups. It would be a much better game tbh if groups actually knew how to play instead of standing around mindless. Sadly actually attempting to play the game is "elitist" or "sweaty" Which is funny considering most of the people in the "sweaty" groups are 40+ and on something laughing the entire time and not even taking it that serious. Just know that when you die to some of these groups you are dying to drunken grandma.

If you want to actually fix pvp. Increase group sizes back to 24.

Revert the base 1000 wep and spell damage we were given. Heck lower the base damage and healing across the board.

Increase raw damage given from having stat pools like we had years ago. This will make people swap out of high health builds while still having damage.

Bring back bleeds ext having 100% armor and block ignore to kill tanks. Among other things..... movement speed being one of them.

Ok that's fine. I haven't said anything that wasn't true. Many of my experiences have actually happened several times. I understand this is essentially me talking with no vids or ability to reproduce evidence and so you know, you are all welcome to treat what I'm saying in whatever way feels appropriate for you.

At this point, this certainly is not a goodbye thread as I do PvE quite a bit and do small scale PvP. But I am doing this for me because I'm not going to stay silent forever and defend them.

I've had enough. So, they can say what they like as people will do, but you all really need to remember something... this is not just about me. It affects you also. I mean, unless you enjoy PvPing under these conditions, so I really don't. You know? I remember a time when there were only a few bombers and a few ball groups. Not a big deal. But it's like now it's everywhere and who are these people that no one can contradict them?

People are always telling me about what they would have done had they been there and doing the right thing. Ok, I was there and I've done the right thing. If no changes are made and everyone just keeps going along with this stuff, then don't complain about Cyrodiil being empty. It seems like everyone who says something gets rained on or run off the game. For my part, I don't even go to Cyrodiil primetime anymore. If a ball group arrives at a keep or the emp, I just leave. It would be crazy to stay.

Let me leave you with an example.

This is perhaps, one of the meanest things to happen to me yet in Cyrodiil, a ball group's response when trying to run a scroll. At least half the group were DKs, and so this was before subclassing at the time, and I was constantly pulled for roughly 10 to 15 minutes. If you've ever seen a western movie where someone gets lashed to death, that's a close fit to it. I was chased and instead of being killed, just lashed while my own faction sat there and wouldn't help. Just constantly getting pulled in random directions with chains constantly hitting me. It was awesome kinda, but it was also a pretty mean-spirited thing to do. So, pardon me for not having gentle feelings towards bad people.

Gabriel_H · 8:43AM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Im sure you'd like to believe that lol. Fact is I dont enjoy following crown like you so I typically only play with one other person as a duo at most. Occasionally I do join a buddy of mine's group, Jaypou and Chaos that moved here from EU, fantastic healer. Cool dudes, but you can ask them, I'm too solo coded lol. DK solo is very fun for me, I enjoy the freedom.

And if you see my post here in the beginning of the thread, I show a video of this, with an old duo of mine, blowing up one of your precious ballgroups with plaguebreak lol.

You do not have to play the meta to win, meta is defined by people who play well in ways others dont until they are copied, and EP for instance being ran by their balls is why without massive numbers they cant win, it makes their plays on the map obvious and exploitable by the other factions.

On top of the fact that these ballgroups are so arrogant that they rarely actually help their faction and would rather troll with scroll or something before dying in a keep across the map... The only people that hold such importance of ballgroups are ballgroup enjoyers themselves.

Also depends entirely on what you define "winning" as. Cyro isn't PvP, it's AvA.

Ballgroups primary obejective is to kill players, but that isn't the goal of AvA - which is to control the map. Killing players can of course lead to that, but the end-goal is different.

I remember doing a scroll re-capture, where I had to run it across the entire map. I got it out from a blue keep, under the nose of a yellow ball group. I'd got about half-way home, little escort, when the same ballgroup ported into the nearest keep to me, chased me down, killed me and my meager escort, then continued on to hunt others while ignoring there was a scroll right there.

I've seen this sort of thing many times from many ballgroups. Ignoring the actual objective in favour of simply killing players. I'd call that borderline griefing.

If people want to play follow the leader, and I don't know any serious PvPers who do, then by all means let them, but the complaints that their preferred playstyle is then given counters just further shows how un-serious they are as PvPers.

moonio · 10:26AM

mocap wrote: »

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

Because everyone else has actively disengaged at this point.. there is nothing for the non ball group players to do but look on and think. 'well ok we got some keeps' now what.

xR3ACTORx · 11:39AM

I also like to add that on Xbox EU cyro is so dead since subclassing and vengeance that even the ballgroups don't play anymore.
I expect PS servers to have a similar experience.

Even the group i bg with sees no point in fighting an empty map when it's 0/0/0 bars for every alliance during prime time.

BardokRedSnow · 2:16PM

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I also like to add that on Xbox EU cyro is so dead since subclassing and vengeance that even the ballgroups don't play anymore.
I expect PS servers to have a similar experience.

Even the group i bg with sees no point in fighting an empty map when it's 0/0/0 bars for every alliance during prime time.

To be fair, devil's advocate Xbox lost a lot of players because of the game pass changes this year on NA side also apparently. Don't know how popular game pass is or isn't EU side but it probably is part of the issue on consoles in general.

BardokRedSnow · 2:23PM

moonio wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

It's funny when your alliance's ballgroups are tearing enemy apart, zone chat is silent and everyone is happy. All the ballgroup haters instantly shut their mouths xd

Because everyone else has actively disengaged at this point.. there is nothing for the non ball group players to do but look on and think. 'well ok we got some keeps' now what.

Pretty much, I look at it as oh ok the fights over one way or the other, go somewhere else for a real fight. Either the balls there and your fight is done because youre all dead, or the other way around here's your ap congrats. Unless you have a big enough zerg, or I'm in a group that can combat a ball or at least stall it. Which funnily enough only takes one or two good healers vs a 12 man because that's how ridiculous healing is and why the easier to deal with ballgroups 12v1 so hard.

As I said, Ballgroups have a lot of self importance but the only satisfaction I feel is when I know we have a ball that can do to the other factions what they're doing to us. Mutually Assured Destruction, would rather they not exist at all, or at least allow us sets to deal with them again and stop nerfing everything thats useful. Otherwise it really is just avoidance and looking for real fights where you can.

ThoraxtheDark · 2:32PM

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

BardokRedSnow · 2:47PM

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

ShutUpitsRed · 3:27PM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Ostonoha · 3:54PM

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Hello ZOS,

now with all the empty servers. I'm talking about the exclusive power consolidations between things like ball groups, bombers, emps and certain PvP Guilds (who despite what some of them might say) have proven themselves to be almost completely elitist in practice as well as non-inclusive towards other players in same faction(s) at like almost every time I've noticed them login.

I cannot Trust that when I login to Cyrodiil, that my organized group, with comms, with heals and so forth can play the game reasonably against a pre-made ball group, completely fabricated to maximize every single bonus imaginable (and some unconventional) and then for the most part never die. Now, I'm not specifically against ball groups, but I'm using this as an example because the reason PvP is dying is because the casuals, the new folks, the part-time vets, hell even the vets themselves, you know... like solo players? ok they're unable to compete. PvP stops when one of these fabricated 'monstrosities', these abominations, come around. And it's not just ball groups. Do we really need Emp? Why? No one can kill the Emps lol. Emp bombers have been known to wipe entire servers, that includes both factions. Over time, this has become a very visible situation, and it makes people stop and ask what am I logging in for? Is this what I paid for?

It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy.

This is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. As a casual player, as a veteran player even, what tool in my toolkit should I use to have even a 2% chance of taking down this ball group or surviving a bomber? There is virtually none unless its setup thru a complicated and time-consuming process, if that will even work.

. We're sick and tired of the shenanigans and stupid gotchas that come from bombers ending a PvP battle and ball groups doing the like. If one bomber can kill that many people, then why are we there? Just to see how awesome you are right?
That's it. I'm a solo player, I'm a man of my word and I stand my ground. I don't need 8 to 15 people healing me while I PvP. This is immoral and the current situation in Cyrodiil is the results.... death.

.

This seems like a post because 1 random person or hey maybe even 2-3 people out of the 100s of people who are in pvp guilds were mean and so you are blasting all of them as being "toxic" which seems from this post is more to do with you not liking how they play based on how you call it exploiting and essentially painting it as bullying and "Toxic" vs what they actually said or behave as a person. Most if not all of the ball group leaders are actually rather kind people who are willing to take people and train them to learn to group. Sure there's some headcases but that's just life. The majority of them are friendly and don't take themselves too serious.

Complaining about emperor buffs at this stage of ESO? Emperor has been gutted so badly its a joke at this point compared to what it was before.

Rush of Agony has been also gutted to the point if you or really anyone at this point are being pulled by it (unless its behind you and you had no chance to see it) honestly its you who are at fault. Ball groups use it just to keep other groups honest at this point in gvgs. The smug and coy comment by you really does show you are projecting your own angry feelings on other players and its 1 sided affair of anger coming from yourself.

Dying to bombers happen You want to know why its needed? To prevent entire factions from steamrolling smaller factions. I have been in this game since beta. The amount of battles turned because of a few well placed bombs by a solo or a group has saved or taken keeps/scrolls. You worry about having a 2% chance of making a difference, try making a difference when all that matter is how many people and not how many people know what they are doing. That is what vengence is. There is no punishment for just stacking bodies. You want to see mindless pvp? which is what ball grouping gets called, watch what happens when the 50-100 AD steamroll across the server in the vengence camp unopposed. Half the time the only reason today scrolls get retaken or keeps even flipped is due to a ball group or a coordinated group flipping a battle.

You sound very high and mighty yourself saying you dont need 8-15 people heailing you. You must be sooooo good. Fact is you are the one showing your elitist attitude here with comments like that. This is an mmopvp game focused on open world and group play. If you are that upset about people using groups and planning things might I suggest playing a single player game like solitaire?

I do agree some nerfs need to happen to lower the power of ball groups. But some of you need to stop thinking your snipe or poison inject spam is actually an effective counter to groups. It would be a much better game tbh if groups actually knew how to play instead of standing around mindless. Sadly actually attempting to play the game is "elitist" or "sweaty" Which is funny considering most of the people in the "sweaty" groups are 40+ and on something laughing the entire time and not even taking it that serious. Just know that when you die to some of these groups you are dying to drunken grandma.

If you want to actually fix pvp. Increase group sizes back to 24.

Revert the base 1000 wep and spell damage we were given. Heck lower the base damage and healing across the board.

Increase raw damage given from having stat pools like we had years ago. This will make people swap out of high health builds while still having damage.

Bring back bleeds ext having 100% armor and block ignore to kill tanks. Among other things..... movement speed being one of them.

Ok that's fine. I haven't said anything that wasn't true. Many of my experiences have actually happened several times. I understand this is essentially me talking with no vids or ability to reproduce evidence and so you know, you are all welcome to treat what I'm saying in whatever way feels appropriate for you.

At this point, this certainly is not a goodbye thread as I do PvE quite a bit and do small scale PvP. But I am doing this for me because I'm not going to stay silent forever and defend them. I've had enough. So, they can say what they like as people will do, but you all really need to remember something... this is not just about me. It affects you also. I mean, unless you enjoy PvPing under these conditions, so I really don't. You know? I remember a time when there were only a few bombers and a few ball groups. Not a big deal. But it's like now it's everywhere and who are these people that no one can contradict them?

People are always telling me about what they would have done had they been there and doing the right thing. Ok, I was there and I've done the right thing. If no changes are made and everyone just keeps going along with this stuff, then don't complain about Cyrodiil being empty. It seems like everyone who says something gets rained on or run off the game. For my part, I don't even go to Cyrodiil primetime anymore. If a ball group arrives at a keep or the emp, I just leave. It would be crazy to stay.

Let me leave you with an example.

This is perhaps, one of the meanest things to happen to me yet in Cyrodiil, a ball group's response when trying to run a scroll. At least half the group were DKs, and so this was before subclassing at the time, and I was constantly pulled for roughly 10 to 15 minutes. If you've ever seen a western movie where someone gets lashed to death, that's a close fit to it. I was chased and instead of being killed, just lashed while my own faction sat there and wouldn't help. Just constantly getting pulled in random directions with chains constantly hitting me. It was awesome kinda, but it was also a pretty mean-spirited thing to do. So, pardon me for not having gentle feelings towards bad people.

I am still wondering where all these supposed groups even are considering half of them are gone now and there might be 1 group per faction on and only during prime time hours. Well DC might have 2-3 on a friday night.

You are right they should be toned down in power. But I did agree to that.

If half the group were DKs they were not a ball group as you are describing because no ball group would do such a thing as run half a group of DKs as it would provide no benefit at all.

In terms of chains hitting you constantly do you mean they pulled you constantly? Because the CC cooldown is 7 seconds and rush is also 7 seconds. 7 seconds is a long time to get away or at least block to avoid being pulled.

Ostonoha · 3:56PM

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

Sadly this has been a constant issue in this mmo in particular since beta. Nobody wants to group yet they somehow want an online mmo experience. It makes absolutely zero sense.

CatoUnchained · 4:01PM

Vulkunne wrote: »

Hello ZOS,

This letter is being presented on the forums as a response to the recent posts regarding some of the upcoming proposed changes for PvP. Having played ESO for 10+ years (and PvP'd for a large portion of the time) I wanted to add my thoughts to this conversation as well.

First, please allow me to take a moment and congratulate your Teams working on this. While this does not necessarily mean I agree with every change, it does mean I applaud the fact that changes are being made and while there are still issues to be addressed, I think I understand why you're going this route with Vengeance testing. With that said, I do agree with others who have indicated it would be a terrible idea to get rid of (at a minimum) Grayhost Cyrodiil. I agree that Grayhost Cyrodiil should be left in same form, yet, not left without making necessary balance changes to correct some of the more problematic issues commonly mentioned previously on this forum.

Secondly, aside from the mainstream issues with Cyrodiil PvP, as many others have already discussed, and some have done so to great length, I would also like to take this time to interject a reminder of what I have come to accept as a core problem with Cyrodiil PvP. This feedback is based on my shared experience with other players; it is slightly biased but not in a personal way towards anyone else and with all the storms rolling thru the forums I feel this issue really comes as a high priority for the survival of PvP participation & retention. This is important.

Reading thru the forums it comes as no surprise that people aren't happy about the Cyrodiil PvP experience. While there are many reasons for this, I don't want this post to get wasted on everyone's personal reason(s) (including mine) and not highlight the noticeably destructive effects from these same issues, that have existed for years, as there have been complaints and different suggestions offered in pursuit of resolution to the problems which continue to occur daily and whose force is felt now with all the empty servers. I'm talking about the exclusive power consolidations between things like ball groups, bombers, emps and certain PvP Guilds (who despite what some of them might say) have proven themselves to be almost completely elitist in practice as well as non-inclusive towards other players in same faction(s) at like almost every time I've noticed them login.

Let us begin my saying, I'm not against people playing the game... their way. In fact, that's understandable to do so. However, one thing that I have learned when dealing with people, is you cannot have a relationship based on rules if preferential treatment is significantly doled out to one party vs another when there is no justifiable reason for it. Trust is the key to any relationship and Balance is akin to Trust. And let me just say, Trust has been almost completely lost in Cyrodiil PvP. Yes, Trust meaning, if I play someone else in like a game of chess, I can play with the understanding the rules apply to both sides. Rooks won't wipe a pawn line. If I play COD, then no one is going to be behaving in a manner not consistent with what everyone has for the game. In other words, one team will survive based on what they do rather than sitting there exploiting the entire time and being unkillable.

I cannot Trust that when I login to Cyrodiil, that my organized group, with comms, with heals and so forth can play the game reasonably against a pre-made ball group, completely fabricated to maximize every single bonus imaginable (and some unconventional) and then for the most part never die. Now, I'm not specifically against ball groups, but I'm using this as an example because the reason PvP is dying is because the casuals, the new folks, the part-time vets, hell even the vets themselves, you know... like solo players? ok they're unable to compete. PvP stops when one of these fabricated 'monstrosities', these abominations, come around. And it's not just ball groups. Do we really need Emp? Why? No one can kill the Emps lol. Emp bombers have been known to wipe entire servers, that includes both factions. Over time, this has become a very visible situation, and it makes people stop and ask what am I logging in for? Is this what I paid for?

This is why we need Vengeance. I know some don't like Vengeance. They don't like change, I know. It's hard. But I want you all to know one thing. Whatever happens here, I don't blame ZOS. I know what it's like to feel the wrath of a ball group who got denied their scroll, by ... well someone like you who is just playing the game, trying to return the scroll and so now they spite you at every turn ... they act like my dog does when he doesn't get his toy on bath day. I know what it's like to drink from the cup of an angry group of dual-faction grief bombers, trolling your siege group at every Keep from different factions, including sometimes the same one your group is on. I know what it's like have an enjoyable keep battle and then have one guy ... kill everyone by himself or something else like a ball group show up and then PvP just stops. That's it everybody go home - shows over. The bomber has ended the fight and/or the ball groups only care about themselves, we can't touch them, and they can now siege and counter-siege the Keep by themselves. No rezzes, no comms, no uh coordination in zone, no fellowship, no group invites, no nothing. Nothing but problems from these people. No one else required. The bomber wiped the other faction, in some cases quite literally, the ball group is above everyone else. Is it no surprise why the Cyrodiil Servers are empty?

And so, ZOS, I realize this may not be well received by all. I know what people think about me. But I also realize, in spite of everything, we cannot continue to PvP by going down this road without accountability. Is some of it on ZOS, why sure it is. But all of it no. Some of the players are contributing to everyone else who's not uh... on their level... as they have said themselves, both on the forums and in game. Make no mistake and listen close. The reason we are not logging into Cyrodiil PvP anymore is not because of ZOS. It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy. This is why Vengeance is not going away, and it should move forward. Will it end up like Ravenhost Server, will the Grayhost effect draw more people away from it, will it succeed, only time can tell. But this I know, the reason Ravenhost emptied is because the Guild(s) left, wanna know why? It was because no proc/no CP camp doesn't make for good ball groups. That's why. When they left, Grayhost took over as the pop hub, the main attraction for many reasons why, but that's what happened. Vengeance will succeed if the disdain for these power consolidations has sunk in enough for people to want to exclude them from their game. I hope that is true enough to keep Vengeance viable. Vengeance will be under attack, constantly, now more than ever before.

I want everyone to please understand something. If Vengeance doesn't work, not like if it doesn't succeed in perhaps every way, but if this fails, that means PvP in ESO is essentially gone. Remember Pandora's Box? Hope was left inside. People need to know they have a chance to win in order for competitions to work. Right now, there is no chance to win. There is only a coldness that stems from hard truth, an absolute certainty that under current conditions, PvP cannot be played, the battles cannot be won, no matter how hard I theory-craft, chase builds, no matter what I do I cannot overcome this certainty of seamless mathematical precisions that comes from the fabricated groups and bombers. This is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. As a casual player, as a veteran player even, what tool in my toolkit should I use to have even a 2% chance of taking down this ball group or surviving a bomber? There is virtually none unless its setup thru a complicated and time-consuming process, if that will even work.

Something has to give. It has to. Some say well, uh, if I don't get my way I'm leaving. Great guess what? Many already have left. Like lots and lots, oodles and bunches of players ... already have left. I wish ZOS the best of luck trying to bring the casual and general PvP population back. I'm praying for your ZOS, the other solo players and others I know out there who just want to play the game. We're sick and tired of the shenanigans and stupid gotchas that come from bombers ending a PvP battle and ball groups doing the like. If one bomber can kill that many people, then why are we there? Just to see how awesome you are right? Is Cyrodiil PvP still an experience whose results is are based on our choice(s) or is it going to continue to be based on our ultra sets and group exploits. I say ours because I have mine as well, so I am including myself in the problem as far as sets are concerned. Exploiting heal stack and so forth is not PvPing. A ball group is not just an organized group with comms, nice try. It's a group fabricated to exploit group mechanics. That's it. I'm a solo player, I'm a man of my word and I stand my ground. I don't need 8 to 15 people healing me while I PvP. This is immoral and the current situation in Cyrodiil is the results.... death.

And if it takes putting a stop to all this stuff and we can PvP and Trust in the system once again, then I'm for it and look forward to new changes for Cyrodiil. If they don't work out, oh well because how it is now its dead already. I look forward to the day when PvP in this game becomes something that a few clowns can no longer exploit to unjustly, unfairly and unnecessarily troll, burden and otherwise obstruct good, regular people from PvPing who are not there to promote themselves and act out of place thru access to exploits that no one should have.

Thank you for your time,

Vulkunne

Another thing, real quick and this'll be it. You guys know you are not Assassins. Everybody using Assassin skill line, everybody's an Assassin. What is it going on here? I don't know whether I should laugh, should I cry. People posting on here how much they or their companion dislikes/does not approve of the 'lawless' quests. Yet everybody's a NB and a Sorc now just as easy as you please. What a world, what a world.

Nope. Vengeance will be the death of PvP in ESO, and the beginning of the end for ESO all together.

CatoUnchained · 4:03PM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

People fear change.

People don't fear change as much as they hate being lied to and deceived.

Gabriel_H · 4:13PM

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

People fear change.

People don't fear change as much as they hate being lied to and deceived.

Who lied?

Tests provide data. Data informs decisions. Decisions affect outcomes.

Anyone who was being objective knows the underlying way that Cyro works needs to change. Whether Vengeance or some other similar form the issue has always been the server calcs.

It's not the option I would have chosen but ZOS tunnelled in on Vengeance, as they already had the systems built with each test adding more to the framework.

fizzybeef · 4:19PM

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I also like to add that on Xbox EU cyro is so dead since subclassing and vengeance that even the ballgroups don't play anymore.
I expect PS servers to have a similar experience.

Even the group i bg with sees no point in fighting an empty map when it's 0/0/0 bars for every alliance during prime time.

Ps EU is long dead already pvp wise

CatoUnchained · 4:21PM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I really have a hard time understanding why would GH enthusiasts leave the game if Vengeance is enabled alongside GH? Only considering most of the opinions voiced in this forum, we could safely assume that the majority of players will stick to GH and Vengeance will slowly die because of the lack of build diversity? So what’s the issue?

And yes, some of us refuse to play the current Cyro, and are waiting for Vengeance to be added permanently, as an alternative to the GH campaign.

People fear change.

People don't fear change as much as they hate being lied to and deceived.

Who lied?

Tests provide data. Data informs decisions. Decisions affect outcomes.

Anyone who was being objective knows the underlying way that Cyro works needs to change. Whether Vengeance or some other similar form the issue has always been the server calcs.

It's not the option I would have chosen but ZOS tunnelled in on Vengeance, as they already had the systems built with each test adding more to the framework.

never mind, they're not worth it

Gabriel_H · 5:05PM

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

While I'm sure @BardokRedSnow can speak for themselves, I'm getting very bored with the bad faith arguments.

"Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos" - THAT is not the same as "Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others?"

Do. You. Understand. That?

CatoUnchained · 5:16PM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from making a group of your own.

Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos.

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others? Cyrodiil is a group PvP zone. Play a bomber and wait for the ball groups to stand on a resource or something I guess?

While I'm sure @BardokRedSnow can speak for themselves, I'm getting very bored with the bad faith arguments.

"Not everyone wants to log in to run around keeps in their pvp safe space playing follow the leader to 12v1 solos" - THAT is not the same as "Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to group with others?"

Do. You. Understand. That?

If you're bored with bad faith arguments you should stop presenting them.