Subclassing is great, thank you ZOS.

MickeyBN · June 5

As a Nightblade main for the last 8 years I've been playing ESO, one of the things about the game that usually forced me to take a break was how jank and boring the combat felt as a core NB. I managed to level up a Templar and Sorc over the years to try a different playstyle but ultimately I always end up back on my NB, not so much because the kit felt more fun to play, but because of the attachment I have to him as my main.

This also prevented me from trying out the Arcanist when Necrom came out despite how much fun the classes kit looked, because I didn't want to make another character just to have access to new spells. Thanks to U46, all my Christmas's have come at once. I can experiment with different class skills and use all my favourite abilities in the game, all on my main without the need to make a new character and for the first time probably since I started playing in 2016, combat in the game feels great.

I've been seeing a fair amount of negativity on the forums from people leading up to subclassing being implemented, the usual complaints are the breaking of "class fantasy" and a forced new meta that high end players feel obligated to follow. Personally I don't care about any of those things, I just care that after all these years I can play the way I want and use what abilities in the game I deem the most fun and interesting.

So I just wanted to say, thanks heaps ZOS, love it

sans-culottes · June 5

MickeyBN wrote: »

As a Nightblade main for the last 8 years I've been playing ESO, one of the things about the game that usually forced me to take a break was how jank and boring the combat felt as a core NB. I managed to level up a Templar and Sorc over the years to try a different playstyle but ultimately I always end up back on my NB, not so much because the kit felt more fun to play, but because of the attachment I have to him as my main.

This also prevented me from trying out the Arcanist when Necrom came out despite how much fun the classes kit looked, because I didn't want to make another character just to have access to new spells. Thanks to U46, all my Christmas's have come at once. I can experiment with different class skills and use all my favourite abilities in the game, all on my main without the need to make a new character and for the first time probably since I started playing in 2016, combat in the game feels great.

I've been seeing a fair amount of negativity on the forums from people leading up to subclassing being implemented, the usual complaints are the breaking of "class fantasy" and a forced new meta that high end players feel obligated to follow. Personally I don't care about any of those things, I just care that after all these years I can play the way I want and use what abilities in the game I deem the most fun and interesting.

So I just wanted to say, thanks heaps ZOS, love it

Thank you for the candid glimpse into how long-standing dissatisfaction can be reframed as progress.

If the core Nightblade experience felt “jank and boring” to you for eight years, then perhaps the more urgent question is not whether subclassing liberates your creativity, but why one of the game’s foundational classes failed to hold up in the first place. Patch 46 does not address that. It circumvents it. While that may feel empowering in the short term, it raises a deeper concern: are we celebrating a solution, or a surrender?

Your enthusiasm for stitching together kits from multiple classes is understandable on a personal level. However, the moment subclassing becomes a workaround for neglected design, the system begins to cannibalize itself. A game that once invited players to choose a path now hands out interchangeable toolboxes, and it hopes no one notices the scaffolding underneath.

If you say, “I don’t care about class identity or fantasy, I just want to play what feels good,” then that is valid as a preference. However, it is not a defense of design integrity. It is the equivalent of praising a novel because you skipped to the end and found the ending satisfying. Subclassing did not fix your class. It simply let you become someone else. That is not fantasy fulfillment. That is role abandonment.

P.S. For those of us who invested in classes that still carry a price tag—like Necromancer—the subclassing system is not liberation. It is liquidation. The class’s defining mechanics are now actively malfunctioning, and the solution on offer is not repair. It is dilution. You can now fix Necro’s problems by ceasing to be one. If that is considered progress, then the category of “class” has lost all meaning.

BretonMage · June 5

Subclassing as it is designed now is only great if you like being an Arcanist tbh.

(Edit: Inb4 - Or if you're a RP'er and you don't really care about DPS).

Heren · June 5

BretonMage wrote: »

(Edit: Inb4 - Or if you're a RP'er and you don't really care about DPS).

As a somewhat rp'er ( or someone that like the concept of some class identity and coherence ), subclassing seems ( also ? ) very disapointing at this lvl.

Anyway, glad Op having fun. Curious what build you're using that improved your gameplay experience on NB ? For me gameplay feel mostly the same accross all classes ( except maybe arcanist, but... ), so, I'm really curious.

Dock01 · June 5

im having fun too !

MickeyBN · June 5

Heren wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

(Edit: Inb4 - Or if you're a RP'er and you don't really care about DPS).

As a somewhat rp'er ( or someone that like the concept of some class identity and coherence ), subclassing seems ( also ? ) very disapointing at this lvl.

Anyway, glad Op having fun. Curious what build you're using that improved your gameplay experience on NB ? For me gameplay feel mostly the same accross all classes ( except maybe arcanist, but... ), so, I'm really curious.

Running 1 bar Oakensoul.

Vigor - Toppling Charge - Fatecarver - Abyssal Reach - Grim Focus - Incap

Mostly a mix of Arc and NB with 1 Aedric Spear ability for the passives which synergize really well, plus I love having a gap closer that isn't Ambush. Fatecarver and Abyssal speak for themselves, they hit like a truck and deal AOE damage. Years of LA weaving Surprise Attack on a stam build got pretty old, so having access to the Arcanist's main damage abilities feels so much better.

Pixiepumpkin · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

@sans-culottes writes extremely descriptive and coherent posts that showcase the crux of an issue. Dismissing his posts as being combative is ludicrous. The fact is, they write well thought and well composed arguments that honestly are so on point that any attempt to argue them just shows a lack of study on the subject.

Secondly, people posting their dislike for subclassing is not "negativity" and dismissing it as such illustrates that you are the one attemping to be combative because you'd rather dismiss their feelings than have an open discussion about them, which is illustrated when you say things like "not interested buddy". There are many MANY well thought out arguments suggesting why subclassing is not fun nor good for the game, regardless of what ZOS thinks/does.

You might be having fun, there are also a large amount of others who are not. I personally find the U46 update to be the worst ZOS has put out yet and I'd argue one of the worst updates in the history of MMORPG's. It literally broke classes, stripped away any form of identity, dilutes the feeling of uniquness and widens the gap between the DPS floor and ceiling, which should be getting narrowed.

So, in reality there are a plethroa of great reasons to critique subclassing and frankly this entire update which is showing to be nothing but assets reused in ways that can only describe that the development for this years content is minimal at best.

Auricle · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

[snip]

Personally, I think subclassing has breathed some new life into the game. It’s how a TES game should feel, not hemmed in by class. Is it currently 100% perfect for that minority of endgame trial groups? No, but (as much as they may be loathe to admit) they’re not the ones keeping the game going, are they?

To so throughly besmirch a feature that draws folks to the game just because the initial launch is not perfect yet is pretty selfish and short-sighted. We want new folks coming to ESO. We want more investment and energy for the game. Think outside your own miserable experience for once, yeah?

[Edit for Bait]

Stamicka · June 5

Auricle wrote: »

Personally, I think subclassing has breathed some new life into the game. It’s how a TES game should feel, not hemmed in by class. Is it currently 100% perfect for that minority of endgame trial groups? No, but (as much as they may be loathe to admit) they’re not the ones keeping the game going, are they?

To so throughly besmirch a feature that draws folks to the game just because the initial launch is not perfect yet is pretty selfish and short-sighted. We want new folks coming to ESO. We want more investment and energy for the game. Think outside your own miserable experience for once, yeah?

Maybe this feature draws some more people into the game, but it's also pushing a lot of people out (like me). It's weird, you're telling people to "think outside their own miserable experience" but in the same post you're not considering how this feature ruined the game for many people who don't think like you.

I'm glad ESO feels more like an Elder Scrolls game to you, but there's people like me who don't actually care about Elder Scrolls. I haven't played a single Elder Scrolls game until ESO and I only picked it up because it was an MMORPG. I think that separate classes with clear themes and mechanics are an important part of MMORPGs, so sacrificing that in order to make the game more Elder Scrolls like sucks for people like me.

This is a common theme with ESO's development. The developers seem so focused on bringing in a new type of player rather than keeping their existing players happy. The game is bleeding veterans just for a shot at getting some new people to play and those new people often don't stick around for one reason or another. I just think ZOS should be releasing features with broad appeal that keeps all types of existing players happy. Instead we get extremely controversial and polarizing decisions every year.

Desiato · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

So you created a new thread just to stand on a soapbox to make a proclamation without any interest in critical discussion? I mean, we can leave feedback to the devs in-game. Forums exist for discussion about topics relevant to the game -- like one of the most controversial and divisive updates the game has seen.

And then respond to someone who politely responded to you with "Cool story bruh" before becoming overtly insulting?

I'm sorry you inexplicably played a class you didn't enjoy for 8 years, but perhaps consider it from another perspective: what if the class you had enjoyed for 8 years was changed to something you could no longer tolerate? Wouldn't that be frustrating?

I'm over subclassing myself, but that doesn't mean I expect everyone else to be over it.

RealLoveBVB · June 5

You could have send your feedback just in-game in the "give feedback"- tab, if you aren't interested in any answers.

sans-culottes · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

If a thread is created for feedback, then feedback—positive or negative—will be posted. That’s how forums work. Demanding that only a certain tone or vocabulary be used is not discussion, it’s gatekeeping. No one is obligated to tailor their language to suit another user’s preferences.

If you want only praise, then there are other venues. Here, feedback means all feedback.

Desiato · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

Well, then perhaps you shouldn't have left your feedback in a discussion area. It's fine that you don't want to discuss your position, but insulting others who fairly respond to your post isn't reasonable.

When one posts their opinion here, it is fair game for others to respond to. Don't take it personally.

xylena_lazarow · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

So? We've been hard obligated to stuff our bars full of boring classless generics for a decade. Flawless Dawnbreaker and Barbed Trap on every single PvE DD bar for years. Flurry over your favorite class spammable. Mage Guild Balance over the iconic Spike Armor on DK tanks. Vigor on every single PvP build, even with subclassing.

I love this patch. I'll gladly play fun new class skills and new skill interactions over the same old generics. My PvP build replaced generic defensive skills with Crit Surge and Cauterize. StamSorc and DK complement each other extremely well in PvP, solving each other's weaknesses, giving rise to all sorts of new interesting Sorc/DK combo builds.

LalMirchi · June 5

Grand-Feather said "Misery loves company" One thinks that doomsayers will cry doom, and... the world keeps turning.

Gaebriel0410 · June 5

In all honesty, the OP basically posted "I love subclasses, now I can combine my fave ESO abilities on my main, which I always wanted."

It's immediately followed by a thorough scientific examination on why the OP is wrong, how he thinks the wrong way and how factually bad the game actually is, immediately turning the topic around to be negative.

In his place I'd be annoyed too.

I bet the system has its faults, and imo it's always good to be critical, but not every topic is the time and place for it and here it just comes across as trying to criticize someone else's enjoyment because reasons.

I haven't checked out subclasses myself yet so I can't really contribute anything at the moment, but I look forward to doing so on the weekend, I have about a million ideas for my characters.

Jaimeh · June 5

I'm in the opposite boat OP, I love how NB plays (in terms of PvE dps) and I hate how the set-ups that push the highest numbers seem to have NB skills on the bar just for passive buffing and not actively using them. It has been my biggest gripe with the game how've they gutted the stam variant in particular for PvE to the point that you never saw them in competitive end-game anymore, and it's a class that was tailor made for damage, imo. So I've been playing around with some subclassing set-ups that use the skills and can still do decent damage, but the rotations become increasingly complex, and given how the arcanist's flail/beam playstyle is so easy, and has so much damage and mitigation baked in, it makes me wonder what's the point. Anyway, I'm glad you're enjoying your NB, and I'm also cautiously optimistic for subclassing in general, but in terms of actively using core class skills, sadly for NB it's not the strongest play at the moment (always speaking with PvE in mind, not PvP).

RealLoveBVB · June 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You did not solve the problem. You sidestepped it. If subclassing means every class must be salvaged by fleeing its core mechanics, then what exactly are we playing? Not an RPG. Not a world. A costume drawer.

So? We've been hard obligated to stuff our bars full of boring classless generics for a decade. Flawless Dawnbreaker and Barbed Trap on every single PvE DD bar for years. Flurry over your favorite class spammable. Mage Guild Balance over the iconic Spike Armor on DK tanks. Vigor on every single PvP build, even with subclassing.

Nobody was forcing you to play any meta.
Except vigor, I never used any of your other skills you mentioned. Unique playstyles were possible with pure classes already. Just find your own build and convince with it.

Vulkunne · June 5

sans-culottes wrote: »

MickeyBN wrote: »

As a Nightblade main for the last 8 years I've been playing ESO, one of the things about the game that usually forced me to take a break was how jank and boring the combat felt as a core NB. I managed to level up a Templar and Sorc over the years to try a different playstyle but ultimately I always end up back on my NB, not so much because the kit felt more fun to play, but because of the attachment I have to him as my main.

This also prevented me from trying out the Arcanist when Necrom came out despite how much fun the classes kit looked, because I didn't want to make another character just to have access to new spells. Thanks to U46, all my Christmas's have come at once. I can experiment with different class skills and use all my favourite abilities in the game, all on my main without the need to make a new character and for the first time probably since I started playing in 2016, combat in the game feels great.

I've been seeing a fair amount of negativity on the forums from people leading up to subclassing being implemented, the usual complaints are the breaking of "class fantasy" and a forced new meta that high end players feel obligated to follow. Personally I don't care about any of those things, I just care that after all these years I can play the way I want and use what abilities in the game I deem the most fun and interesting.

So I just wanted to say, thanks heaps ZOS, love it

Thank you for the candid glimpse into how long-standing dissatisfaction can be reframed as progress.

If the core Nightblade experience felt “jank and boring” to you for eight years, then perhaps the more urgent question is not whether subclassing liberates your creativity, but why one of the game’s foundational classes failed to hold up in the first place. Patch 46 does not address that. It circumvents it. While that may feel empowering in the short term, it raises a deeper concern: are we celebrating a solution, or a surrender?

Your enthusiasm for stitching together kits from multiple classes is understandable on a personal level. However, the moment subclassing becomes a workaround for neglected design, the system begins to cannibalize itself. A game that once invited players to choose a path now hands out interchangeable toolboxes, and it hopes no one notices the scaffolding underneath.

If you say, “I don’t care about class identity or fantasy, I just want to play what feels good,” then that is valid as a preference. However, it is not a defense of design integrity. It is the equivalent of praising a novel because you skipped to the end and found the ending satisfying. Subclassing did not fix your class. It simply let you become someone else. That is not fantasy fulfillment. That is role abandonment.

P.S. For those of us who invested in classes that still carry a price tag—like Necromancer—the subclassing system is not liberation. It is liquidation. The class’s defining mechanics are now actively malfunctioning, and the solution on offer is not repair. It is dilution. You can now fix Necro’s problems by ceasing to be one. If that is considered progress, then the category of “class” has lost all meaning.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I might add however, that just because we have subclass now it should not mean class development itself ends. Although true, class development can't happen independently now or in exact same way as before because subclass will be an inevitable factor going forward yet classes in their native form still hold value.

It does pose a concern that if there were problems with balancing/maint class before subclass, what is the vision going forward then? I would think it would be harder to juggle these two actions, which are distinct yet not necessarily running in competition with one another... more like running in parallel it seems.

ZigoSid · June 5

It's ok to like multi-classing (this name better fit what we got.) , I kinda like it too.

But calling the NB gameplay boring to end up spamming "the broken beam" like everyone else was kinda funny to read

LPapirius · June 5

Subclassing is the worst change to ESO since inception in my opinion. There are no classes now. Power creep is so extreme that the difference between new players and vet players is more extreme than ever. There is no hope and no effort being made to balance PvP with subclassing. At present 3 sweaty try hards can be an invincible mini ball group. Everything that made ESO unique has now been homogenized into oblivion.

This feels like the last significant effort ZOS plans on putting into ESO to me.

Pixiepumpkin · June 5

LPapirius wrote: »

Subclassing is the worst change to ESO since inception in my opinion. There are no classes now. Power creep is so extreme that the difference between new players and vet players is more extreme than ever. There is no hope and no effort being made to balance PvP with subclassing. At present 3 sweaty try hards can be an invincible mini ball group. Everything that made ESO unique has now been homogenized into oblivion.

This feels like the last significant effort ZOS plans on putting into ESO to me.

Agreed and I know exactly what you mean.

Sadly I would have to disagree with the last part of your commentary, I think the last significant effort was Gold Road.

sans-culottes · June 5

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Subclassing is the worst change to ESO since inception in my opinion. There are no classes now. Power creep is so extreme that the difference between new players and vet players is more extreme than ever. There is no hope and no effort being made to balance PvP with subclassing. At present 3 sweaty try hards can be an invincible mini ball group. Everything that made ESO unique has now been homogenized into oblivion.

This feels like the last significant effort ZOS plans on putting into ESO to me.

Agreed and I know exactly what you mean.

Sadly I would have to disagree with the last part of your commentary, I think the last significant effort was Gold Road.

Agreed. Subclassing and the new seasonal content schedule are resignations. When recycled assets and borrowed mechanics are marketed as revitalization, what we’re witnessing isn’t reinvention so much as resource triage.

sans-culottes · June 5

Quoted post has been removed

It’s fine if you’ve chosen not to read the words in the thread. That’s your prerogative. But repeatedly insisting something isn’t there, despite direct quotes and timestamps, doesn’t strengthen your case. It just makes your position harder to take seriously.

If you’re unfamiliar with the forum search function or your browser’s find feature, then there are plenty of guides online. This thread isn’t the ideal place to troubleshoot that, though.

LalMirchi · June 5

sans-culottes wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Subclassing is the worst change to ESO since inception in my opinion. There are no classes now. Power creep is so extreme that the difference between new players and vet players is more extreme than ever. There is no hope and no effort being made to balance PvP with subclassing. At present 3 sweaty try hards can be an invincible mini ball group. Everything that made ESO unique has now been homogenized into oblivion.

This feels like the last significant effort ZOS plans on putting into ESO to me.

Agreed and I know exactly what you mean.

Sadly I would have to disagree with the last part of your commentary, I think the last significant effort was Gold Road.

Agreed. Subclassing and the new seasonal content schedule are resignations. When recycled assets and borrowed mechanics are marketed as revitalization, what we’re witnessing isn’t reinvention so much as resource triage.

So let the doomsayers ring the bells of doom?

sans-culottes · June 5

LalMirchi wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Subclassing is the worst change to ESO since inception in my opinion. There are no classes now. Power creep is so extreme that the difference between new players and vet players is more extreme than ever. There is no hope and no effort being made to balance PvP with subclassing. At present 3 sweaty try hards can be an invincible mini ball group. Everything that made ESO unique has now been homogenized into oblivion.

This feels like the last significant effort ZOS plans on putting into ESO to me.

Agreed and I know exactly what you mean.

Sadly I would have to disagree with the last part of your commentary, I think the last significant effort was Gold Road.

Agreed. Subclassing and the new seasonal content schedule are resignations. When recycled assets and borrowed mechanics are marketed as revitalization, what we’re witnessing isn’t reinvention so much as resource triage.

So let the doomsayers ring the bells of doom?

If pointing out a visible shift in design priorities counts as “ringing the bells of doom,” then the bar for optimism must be remarkably low.

LPapirius · June 5

LalMirchi wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Subclassing is the worst change to ESO since inception in my opinion. There are no classes now. Power creep is so extreme that the difference between new players and vet players is more extreme than ever. There is no hope and no effort being made to balance PvP with subclassing. At present 3 sweaty try hards can be an invincible mini ball group. Everything that made ESO unique has now been homogenized into oblivion.

This feels like the last significant effort ZOS plans on putting into ESO to me.

Agreed and I know exactly what you mean.

Sadly I would have to disagree with the last part of your commentary, I think the last significant effort was Gold Road.

Agreed. Subclassing and the new seasonal content schedule are resignations. When recycled assets and borrowed mechanics are marketed as revitalization, what we’re witnessing isn’t reinvention so much as resource triage.

So let the doomsayers ring the bells of doom?

Negative feedback is not doomsaying. Especially when it's been presented with evidence and polite criticisms and explanations.

LalMirchi · June 5

So let's turn this discussion back on its head?

Let us say the the naysayers have their wishes granted and this rather large and widely encompassing enterprise is abandoned?

What then?

LPapirius · June 5

LalMirchi wrote: »

So let's turn this discussion back on its head?

Let us say the the naysayers have their wishes granted and this rather large and widely encompassing enterprise is abandoned?

What then?

Well, for one thing there would be some degree of class identity returned to the game. And along with that better balance and better PvP experience.

ZOS_GregoryV · June 5

Greetings all,

After removing about an entire page worth of posts, we have decided it best to keep this thread closed. Moving forward, when posting, we ask that all members of the community keep the Community Rules in mind.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-