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ESO Open World Harder? Reality Check

Windy_Player
Windy_Player
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So I recently saw some reports - Youtube where else? - that the ESO devs were, based on User feedback, planning to make the open world harder.

Let's review?
I'm a 50*1000+ [whatever you use for terminology here, but you get the idea. ] I have a dozen or so characters.
All my toons have purple gear in a variety of sets. Some with two sets at the same time. [Although upgrading jewelry is for some unknown reason more expensive to upgrade than other things. Odd that.]
I'm an ESO+ subscriber. I play an hour or more a day and
I have a bunch of houses.
So my contribution to the game is a couple of hundred dollars a year.

As an ESO+ subscriber, I check in on all the new content patches when they come out.

When Infinite Archive came out, I jumped right in and was able to do a few "levels" or Cycles, stages whatever. With my companions [some at level 20].
I do the endeavors each day / week and then spend more time collecting shards and sometimes doing the zone stories, although I've done most at least once by now.
I have a friend who can only play 2 days a week, so we spend 1-2 hours on the days that she can play with me. Open World, Endeavours, public dungs as part of Endeavors etc.

So, what do you call that Casual?
Well you have made Infinite Archive harder and now we cannot participate.
PVP / Cirodil content is not available to us since the mobs and players insta-kill us there.
Dungeons are not fun since we either get dumped into dungeons that are too hard or why wait when we can just go play open world content.
Public dungeons are fun when endeavors point lots of players there so we can tag along.

So if you make stuff TOO HARD in the parts of the game we CAN STILL PLAY, then we will drop our ESO+ memberships and play other games - that we are already subscribed to.
So I suggest you do some database research and find out how many of us NON VOCAL FOLKS there are that you will be turning out when you make the remaining parts of the game "HARDER" to satisfy the vocal folks that have their META BUILDS and their META GEAR and want all the game features to be TOO HARD FOR CASUAL PLAYERS.

Just a suggestion.
Let the hateing begin.
Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:45
  • mocap
    mocap
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    It will be optional anyway. No one is going to force you to use new difficulty.
  • SerafinaWaterstar
    SerafinaWaterstar
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    You are not casual. You are probably a normal player.

    I am a bit wary about their plans as whilst I like harder content when I choose, I don’t want to have to engage in endless mob fights when doing surveys.

    They need to be quite careful how they do this, as I can see it annoying both sides!

    And may I suggest finding a pvp guild? A good one can really help open up this part of the game. Worked for me!
  • Windy_Player
    Windy_Player
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    mocap wrote: »
    It will be optional anyway. No one is going to force you to use new difficulty.

    I've not seen any details so far that indicate one way or the other. I've heard "Open World" mentioned. I hope you're right.

    The change to Infinite Archive was not "Optional". It was just deal breaking for a lot of us. Some how, having the higher level turns be harder was not enough. And now I can't even finish one turn- cycle, whatever.
  • Jierdanit
    Jierdanit
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    Casual should not be the same as bad.

    [snip]
    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:32
    PC/EU, StamSorc Main
  • BagOfBadgers
    BagOfBadgers
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    I would hope that the difficulty increase was togglable. I'm someone who would use a higher difficulty for overworld BUT I don't want it to be at the detriment of others enjoyment if ZOS makes everything tougher with no choice of difficulty!

    I know I'm in a minority that clears Vet HM Dungeons & Vet HM Trials, so with that my skills and understanding of the game are higher than most (not trying to show off) and what I want should not determine overworld for the majority of players.

    ZOS has a problem of not teaching players how to improve their skills and that is 100% on ZOS, as having to go to sources outside of the game to learn is not good.

    The only worry I have is that ZOS will do another AWA/U35/etc, etc again and not listen to their player base.
    Proud member of the "One shot boss, wipe on trash" club.
    Believe in the KISS priceable "Keep It Simple Stupid".
  • Northwold
    Northwold
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    Given that ZOS seem, belatedly, really to have woken up to just how bad, bad, bad ESO is as an experience for new players, whatever they intend it's likely they will still keep new player experience in mind. New player = player with lower skills who can't kill every single creature in the open world with a couple of mouse clicks and a shrug.

    I can't see them doing as much work as the end of year letter suggests to make things better for new players, only to throw it all away by allowing lower skill players to die the moment they meet a rat.
    Edited by Northwold on 22 December 2024 12:57
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    Jierdanit wrote: »
    Casual should not be the same as bad.

    [snip]

    A lot of the DLC dungeons have mobs that can one-shot players that aren't expecting certain mechanics, or who don't have dedicated healers healing the group/tank taunting everything.

    Normal dungeons. Basic mobs.

    (Looking at you Falkreath Hold)

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:33
  • Windy_Player
    Windy_Player
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    Jierdanit wrote: »
    Casual should not be the same as bad.

    [snip]

    Thanks for your support. LOL

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:34
  • nbksaske
    nbksaske
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    If they make overland harder, it will only be more health (bullet sponges) and things hit harder.
    Unless they change the AI of enemies, won't make a difference, and no one wants to fight mudcrabs with 20m health with one shot mechanics...while fishing.
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Northwold wrote: »
    Given that ZOS seem, belatedly, really to have woken up to just how bad, bad, bad ESO is as an experience for new players, whatever they intend it's likely they will still keep new player experience in mind. New player = player with lower skills who can't kill every single creature in the open world with a couple of mouse clicks and a shrug.

    I can't see them doing as much work as the end of year letter suggests to make things better for new players, only to throw it all away by allowing lower skill players to die the moment they meet a rat.

    You realize ESO has pushed away many new players because they find their first impressions of the game, aka the overland content, to be easy and dull? New player doesn't mean new to video games, and since they haven't shared any information on how they would go about doing this, wait until they actually share their plans before calling for doom.
  • Vulsahdaal
    Vulsahdaal
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    Jierdanit wrote: »
    Casual should not be the same as bad.

    [snip]

    A lot of the DLC dungeons have mobs that can one-shot players that aren't expecting certain mechanics, or who don't have dedicated healers healing the group/tank taunting everything.

    Normal dungeons. Basic mobs.

    (Looking at you Falkreath Hold)


    Falkreath Hold really isnt public dungeon.

    That said, its not too bad when you know a few mechanics (it doesnt really have that many). My friend and I often duo it. TBH I never tried it alone.

    But yeah, there are other DLC dungeons we wouldnt attempt without at least one more player (preferably two).

    This said, a question for OP? Forgive me, its early morning and the caffeine hasnt kicked in yet, but what changes were made to Infinite Archive? I been running it since it came out (it was exactly the thing I was looking for in the game that I didnt know I was looking for until it was there, if that makes any sense lol) and I cant remember any significant changes?

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:34
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    Vulsahdaal wrote: »
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    Jierdanit wrote: »
    Casual should not be the same as bad.

    [snip]

    A lot of the DLC dungeons have mobs that can one-shot players that aren't expecting certain mechanics, or who don't have dedicated healers healing the group/tank taunting everything.

    Normal dungeons. Basic mobs.

    (Looking at you Falkreath Hold)


    Falkreath Hold really isnt public dungeon.

    That said, its not too bad when you know a few mechanics (it doesnt really have that many). My friend and I often duo it. TBH I never tried it alone.

    But yeah, there are other DLC dungeons we wouldnt attempt without at least one more player (preferably two).

    This said, a question for OP? Forgive me, its early morning and the caffeine hasnt kicked in yet, but what changes were made to Infinite Archive? I been running it since it came out (it was exactly the thing I was looking for in the game that I didnt know I was looking for until it was there, if that makes any sense lol) and I cant remember any significant changes?

    It's part of the random normal dungeons. Which is what OP is a talking about. since they distinguish between overworld and being "dumped into a dungeon", like random normal.

    Slight mix-up int terminology I think. You think they're talking about Delves.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:35
  • Northwold
    Northwold
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    CP5 wrote: »
    Northwold wrote: »
    Given that ZOS seem, belatedly, really to have woken up to just how bad, bad, bad ESO is as an experience for new players, whatever they intend it's likely they will still keep new player experience in mind. New player = player with lower skills who can't kill every single creature in the open world with a couple of mouse clicks and a shrug.

    I can't see them doing as much work as the end of year letter suggests to make things better for new players, only to throw it all away by allowing lower skill players to die the moment they meet a rat.

    You realize ESO has pushed away many new players because they find their first impressions of the game, aka the overland content, to be easy and dull? New player doesn't mean new to video games, and since they haven't shared any information on how they would go about doing this, wait until they actually share their plans before calling for doom.

    I imagine they're pushed away far more for the much more basic reason that the new player experience was completely incomprehensible with about ten games' worth of content playable in random order, including playing specific stories completely out of sequence. It played like a broken game.

    I dropped the game *twice*, each time for six months at a time and within days of trying, because I couldn't understand what was going on. It was only when I raised it on steam (and met the usual gamer bro hostility of "duh, use Google" -- why on earth would a player new to the game expect to have to Google it to know how to play?? And what exactly would I be searching for? "Google, how do I find the main quest in ESO that I don't know exists because the game doesn't tell me but I'm making a guess that this game plays bad because I've missed something I don't know is there"?) that I figured out what was going on. And by that stage the game only had Morrowind! I can only imagine how much more confusing it became thereafter.
    Edited by Northwold on 22 December 2024 13:35
  • Ugrak
    Ugrak
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    The capabilites of the playerbase spans ranges too broadly for a single thing to be a good fit.

    A story-mode difficulty option is an easy fix other games have made use of to help the players who struggle to complete content.

    Personally I play fairly casually. The closest thing to a meta build I have is a standard oakensorc, and I also have a toughened version of it with lower damage output. Those two things let me solo stuff such as harrowstorms, bastion nymics, chewy apocrypha world bosses such as libram cathedral and deepreave quag, gorne and silorn public dungeon group events, some DLC dungeons like coral arie and cradle of shadows, base game veteran hardmodes. I'm not even a good player. I'm slow and fumble a lot, but have a decent understanding of the fundamentals.

    Got an arcanist too, but lazily just kitted it up in the 12-piece crafted set: shattered fate with bows and called it good. Still able to solo stuff like the toad-tounge war camp world boss in Blackwood if I mind the barrel mechanic.

    That kind of play is feels very engaging to me and where ESO combat shines. Complexity arising from the combination of many simpler enemies and impactful mechanics. Especially where I've got a weaker build and have to work for success. Sometimes dying several times and letting that teach me about mechanics I'm ignoring. For example the high isle serpent caller and wildhorn world bosses killed me a lot until I understood the mechanics, then they became fairly straightforward.

    Even made a tanky build and spend way too much time chipping away alone at the massive health pool of a dragon, but that was only halfway engaging whenever the dragon spawned adds, because not a lot else is going on in dragon fights. It's just chipping away at a bullet sponge while trying not to be one shotted. Which is why just altering the stats of the overland won't be enough. It also needs larger packs of enemies. Perfect example vs dragons are harrowstorms. Those are great solo fights as long as you can out-DPS the ghosts healing the pikes.

    Anyway my nightblade main crafter is mostly just casually running around in the overland. Not really doing anything challenging. Wearing crafted training gear and a mythic. Heartland conqueror, telvanni efficiency and mora's whispers. Just harvesting while listening to a podcast or watching a video, killing whatever I meet to level the companions and get those passives. Still two or three shotting almost everything I meet. Also that's also the only character I do quests on.

    Kind of relaxing running around mindlessly harvesting stuff, but the harvesting of enemies can hardly be called combat. This level of difficulty in quests also robs it of any engagement value. I tend to do the quests as new content drops just to complete it, and I suspend disbelief and pay attention to the story even though I feel it gets imperfectly told, as I just enjoy mulling over ES lore. But it's not a good experience to have story overexplained, only interrupted by having to slap harmless enemies to death every now and then, including the quest boss. It's like reading a children's book based mostly on big crayon pictures. ESO wasn't always like that.

    In the overland, aside from some WB's and WE's, I know with certainty that I will always succeed without effort. It will just take a few seconds, even on a bad build.

    Yet some people report struggling with it. I find that bizarre, but I don't doubt it. Some players just perform really badly, others have disabilities, or maybe just bad internet. Meanwhile, others are speedrunning solo DLC veteran dungeon hardmode trifecta achievements. So one approach just cannot fit them all.

    I think it's easier to make an engaging combat environment first and then boost underperforming players power.

    Death carries so little consequence for the vestige that it's actual immortality feels majorly underutilized. Compare it to soul reaver where dying in the living world was often a requirement to go do something in the ghost world. That's an aside though, but might be a way to implement a story mode system when I think about it. i.e., maybe if you die, you can keep fighting as an immortal ghost and with greatly increased damage output, and your companion becomes almost like a city guard. Obviously there would have to be some limitations around that kind of power, but if you wanted to guarantee that bad players could complete content, it would do it.
  • xclassgaming
    xclassgaming
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    i seriously hope its a toggle and not forced new diffuculty; i like being a god in the open world.
    Give us clannfear mounts!
  • I_killed_Vivec
    I_killed_Vivec
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    The problem with harder overland that I have is that nobody seems to agree (or is prepared to specify) exactly what it means.

    Does it mean meaner mobs, and more of them, like Craglorn? I'm all in favour of having a more challenging zone, you can choose to go there or not.

    Does it mean a switch, which means that when you look at a wolf it has 30k HP, when someone on "normal" sees 20K?

    Does it mean a switch that puts you in a separate instance, where everything is a bit harder, but the population is split?

    Does it mean that there's just a toggle on bosses?

    Clearly it has to be different from vet/normal dungeons, where every one in the same instance sees the same difficulty (apart from the split world, which I don't think they will do for the very reason why they brought in 1T - to bring people together, not separate them). But if you aren't in split instances then how do they calculate the relative contributions to downing the mob? I see a wolf at 20k, I do 19k damage, you arrive late, in hard mode. Do you see 1k HP left? or 11k? If you do 1k damage do I see it as dead and you see it having 10k left? The devil is in the detail...

    And, most contentious of all to me, does greater challenge = greater reward?

    I say it is contentious because while you might see a wolf at 30k and I only see it at 20k, who's to say that I'm not soloing while you have a bunch of friends (and companions).

    To take the challenge = rewards argument to its logical conclusion, shouldn't I get a greater reward when solo than when with a friend (or friends) or a companion? To put it another way, soloing a wolf at 20K is more challenging than two people killing a wolf at 30k "hard mode". Who should get the greater reward?

    But then if people really just crave the challenge of greater difficulty then I'd expect the level of rewards to be inconsequential... ;)
  • Vulsahdaal
    Vulsahdaal
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    Vulsahdaal wrote: »
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    Jierdanit wrote: »
    Casual should not be the same as bad.

    [snip]

    A lot of the DLC dungeons have mobs that can one-shot players that aren't expecting certain mechanics, or who don't have dedicated healers healing the group/tank taunting everything.

    Normal dungeons. Basic mobs.

    (Looking at you Falkreath Hold)


    Falkreath Hold really isnt public dungeon.

    That said, its not too bad when you know a few mechanics (it doesnt really have that many). My friend and I often duo it. TBH I never tried it alone.

    But yeah, there are other DLC dungeons we wouldnt attempt without at least one more player (preferably two).

    This said, a question for OP? Forgive me, its early morning and the caffeine hasnt kicked in yet, but what changes were made to Infinite Archive? I been running it since it came out (it was exactly the thing I was looking for in the game that I didnt know I was looking for until it was there, if that makes any sense lol) and I cant remember any significant changes?

    It's part of the random normal dungeons. Which is what OP is a talking about. since they distinguish between overworld and being "dumped into a dungeon", like random normal.

    Slight mix-up int terminology I think. You think they're talking about Delves.

    There is a mix up somewhere. Probably because I was directing at 2 people in the same post, I usually dont do that but again, its early for me lol

    I dont believe I mentioned delves at all. The part about the public dungeon was in response to the 2 posts quoted in mine.

    The OP did mention public dungeons as well, as needing to have others there to 'tag along' with (I believe thats what Jierdanit was referring to). But my only response to the OP was to ask about Infinite Archive. Sorry for the confusion *swallows another caffeine pill*

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 22 December 2024 15:36
  • xclassgaming
    xclassgaming
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    they should just copy LOTRO's zone/level scaling diffuculty thing tbh. It works well
    Give us clannfear mounts!
  • Sakiri
    Sakiri
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    I just find it funny they want to do this because Craglorn was so successful they had to gut it, scrap the adventure zones idea, and VR were so popular they had to nerf it.

    Yeah. It was too hard and when one tamriel came they nerfed it.

    I think a lot of folks are in for a rude awakening.
  • Treeshka
    Treeshka
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    I think they will not touch older zones. They will still be for people to enjoy story in very relaxed environment and feel like hero.

    What i am expecting is that they will probably make a new Craglorn like zone. Maybe a fairly large zone and add stuff to it from time to time. Like new delves. New public dungeons.
  • OsUfi
    OsUfi
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    There is a huge difference between Dark Souls and Barney the Dinosaurs Colour Adventure.

    Much though I really don't want Dark Souls in my ESO, everything being at Barney's first colouring book level is equally as bad. No story, whatever the stakes, is interesting when you can pretty much afk an end of story boss.

    Difficulty lands on a sliding scale, and I'm eager to see what ZoS do to address the dullness of overland content.
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    With there already being a thread opened on this subject here, we're going to go ahead and close this one down.

    Thank you for understanding.
    Staff Post
This discussion has been closed.