Taril wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I'm actually inclined to wish that ZOS would remove certain information, such as the ability to see your opponent's cards, or see which cards you've got in your draw pile, because to me that kind of ability in a card game seems an awful lot like cheating.)

For a regular CCG/TCG, yes. That would be the case.

But for a deckbuilding card game like ToT, it's not cheating. It's literally information you'd have anyway by using your eyes.

You know what both players starting decks are. You know what cards each player buys. You know what cards each player plays (Or tosses, because graveyards/cooldown piles are freely available for anyone to look at - As is standard because it's necessary to avoid cheating). Ergo, you know what cards are remaining in each players decks.

The only thing you don't know, is the order of the cards. Which is where things like Psijic cards "Toss" ability comes in, to let you scry the next few cards.

Yes, I already understand that logic. But I think it's akin to counting cards in Blackjack, which as far as I know casinos do not like. Not everyone has the memory and know-how needed to count cards effectively, but giving players the ability to look at the cards in their opponents' decks is basically giving them instant access to a card-counting ability, which I think is akin to cheating. When I see streamers playing Tales of Tribute, most of them spend more time looking at the cards in their decks and in their opponents' decks, and even in the draw pile for the Tavern, than they spend looking at the cards in play.

I get that players really like that ability and would probably riot if it were ever taken away, but I still think it smells like blatant cheating. Just my opinion, and no one else's opinions about it are going to change mine.

"Tales of Tribute - game is TERRIBLE"

You could have left the whole first comment as just that.

This feature is not me. Too complex, like this game, if want to be a good dps a good helaer or tank, need to learn lots of thing always and again and again. This is not a job for me, just a caual game. Thus I just skip this game mode. The rewards the progress is nothing, no motivation to do. IA I do it 3-4 times a week only act 1, but there is reward, there are motivation, and some progress. In this card game nothing.

because zerith-var quest
i try do tot
i only12.5% win rate for newplayer npc...

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In ToT, you are either paying attention or your not.

I won't discourage the idea of additional features that offer more information. At the same time, knowing exactly what happened to your Bankorai Sentry probably wasn't going to help you. It died. It became a sunk cost. At that point, you can easily evaluate the information that you do have at your fingertips, such as the contents of both players decks, and move on.

I'm actually inclined to wish that ZOS would remove certain information, such as the ability to see your opponent's cards, or see which cards you've got in your draw pile, because to me that kind of ability in a card game seems an awful lot like cheating. But I know that a lot of ToT players use that ability constantly, and would riot if it were removed. It's just that it feels "dirty" to me.

Players start with all the same cards, and the cards being played and acquired are also clearly visible. All the information is already there anyways, but without that feature, it would be locked behind an unfun memorization minigame, available to only the most diehard of players at levels of card-counting nigh unheard of.

Peeking at opponent cards is a very valid strategy. Top players employ it all the time in regular play to prioritize and deny cards from the shop and also to set up surprise prestige wins that the opponent cannot counter.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

If we are going to make up, from thin air, things that are cheating, then I think it's cheating when the opponent picks Mora. I don't like Mora. I don't like what the deck does. I perceive it as giving players who have low chances of beating me another 1% or 2% odds. It's cheating and obviously shouldn't be allowed.

I did not say it was cheating, I said it smells like cheating to me. I even use it, myself-- but I do so very rarely, because I prefer to focus on the game and not sit there using the "look at cards" feature to look at my cards, look at their cards, look at my cards, look at their cards, look at my cards, look at their cards, over and over and over again, constantly, spending 99.9% of my time doing that, the way I see other players doing when they're playing ToT while streaming.

As for what you call cheating, anyone who reads the ToT forum is probably familiar with your frequent criticisms of certain patrons and some of their cards. This needs to be nerfed, that needs to be buffed, lower the cost of this card, increase the cost of that card, etc. I get that you really enjoy this card game (so do I), and that you enjoy sharing your thoughts sometimes (so do I), but sometimes this forum reads like the PvP forum where players frequently complain about certain classes and their skills, or demand that the devs balance PvP separately from PvE, etc.

My point being, if you want to feel free to gripe about certain patrons and their decks without other forum members griping at you for expressing your opinions, then what's wrong with me expressing my opinions? If other players want to spend 99.9% of their ToT matches going back and forth between peeking at their cards and then at their opponent's cards-- oh, and peeking at the Tavern's draw pile, I forgot to include that-- then great for them, they're playing the card game the way they want. But FOR ME and the way I enjoy playing, it's something I want to fall back on only about 5% of the time, partly because I prefer to focus on the board and not psyche myself out trying to over-analyze what my opponent MIGHT be able to do this turn or the next or the next after that, and partly because TO ME it smells like cheating, similar to counting cards or looking at your opponent's cards in the mirror or whatever. I get that it technically is NOT cheating, but I think the players I see streaming ToT overuse it instead of just playing the dang game and reacting to what the other player actually does instead of fretting about what they might do. But I don't hop into their stream chat to accuse them of cheating or ask them to stop peeking at the cards, because they are free to play the game how they wish.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

If we are going to make up, from thin air, things that are cheating, then I think it's cheating when the opponent picks Mora. I don't like Mora. I don't like what the deck does. I perceive it as giving players who have low chances of beating me another 1% or 2% odds. It's cheating and obviously shouldn't be allowed.

I did not say it was cheating, I said it smells like cheating to me. I even use it, myself-- but I do so very rarely, because I prefer to focus on the game and not sit there using the "look at cards" feature to look at my cards, look at their cards, look at my cards, look at their cards, look at my cards, look at their cards, over and over and over again, constantly, spending 99.9% of my time doing that, the way I see other players doing when they're playing ToT while streaming.

Your examples of people spending their time card peeking only shows that those players are simply learning how to peek at cards and strategize, and are doing so only on their owns turns.

Any top player will be card peeking when it is the opponent's turn, and when their turn comes around, they slam their cards down, signal next turn, then go back to peeking and strategizing while waiting for their opponent.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

As for what you call cheating, anyone who reads the ToT forum is probably familiar with your frequent criticisms of certain patrons and some of their cards. This needs to be nerfed, that needs to be buffed, lower the cost of this card, increase the cost of that card, etc. I get that you really enjoy this card game (so do I), and that you enjoy sharing your thoughts sometimes (so do I), but sometimes this forum reads like the PvP forum where players frequently complain about certain classes and their skills, or demand that the devs balance PvP separately from PvE, etc.

My point being, if you want to feel free to gripe about certain patrons and their decks without other forum members griping at you for expressing your opinions, then what's wrong with me expressing my opinions?

There will always be game mechanics and strategies that feel unfair to play against; of course people can, will, and are allowed to complain about those. But to allege that performing an in-game mechanic or using a common strategy is "cheating" is simply absurd.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If other players want to spend 99.9% of their ToT matches going back and forth between peeking at their cards and then at their opponent's cards-- oh, and peeking at the Tavern's draw pile, I forgot to include that-- then great for them, they're playing the card game the way they want. But FOR ME and the way I enjoy playing, it's something I want to fall back on only about 5% of the time, partly because I prefer to focus on the board and not psyche myself out trying to over-analyze what my opponent MIGHT be able to do this turn or the next or the next after that, and partly because TO ME it smells like cheating, similar to counting cards or looking at your opponent's cards in the mirror or whatever. I get that it technically is NOT cheating, but I think the players I see streaming ToT overuse it instead of just playing the dang game and reacting to what the other player actually does instead of fretting about what they might do. But I don't hop into their stream chat to accuse them of cheating or ask them to stop peeking at the cards, because they are free to play the game how they wish.

Well, unlike you, many people play to win. It's kind of the whole point of zero-sum games like Tales of Tribute.

To put it simply, Tales of Tribute is a game of optimizing outcomes. It is about developing strategies for possible upcoming draws or increasing the chances of you getting a good draw in your upcoming turns. It's about risk versus reward, and then minimizing risk to attain that same reward.

It's all mathematics, and I'm Asian.

P.S. Counting cards is not cheating. Casinos ban it because it is a skill that flips the house odds and that hurts their income. It is also irrelevant to the conversation at hand because Tales of Tribute is not blackjack.

The best thing to do is take initiative and learn what the cards, patrons, etc. do, and understand how the game works, which things like watching tutorials, getting a friend to play with/teach you, and even reading what the cards do in the collections UI.

I remember when High Isle came out, and I had zero clue how to do things. It was frustrating, and I lost more games than won any, but like anything new, it takes time, patience, and practice to get good at.

Most of the time having outside info helped me get a grasp on the basics, and playing a specific deck multiple times even when losing alot taught me how to utilize it fully. The devks also have specific 'gimmicks' and themes that make each unique, and once you understand how each plays, you can find other decks to combo with a few chosen favorites, and which ones are better to choose to counter what your opponnent picks.

Again, this, like learning and mastering anything else in the game (looking at you dungeon and trial savvy people), and I'd recommend patience when working it out for the first time.


You'll end up either loving it or finding it's not your style, and honestly, you aren't obligated to love everythibg ESO has to offer.

I think patron bonuses need nerfs. Delmene Hlaalu and Red Eagle need the Crow treatment: or at least give Red Eagle a higher cost. I would take a closer look at Rahjin too. I don’t mind the curse cards but they are abusable. Perhaps increase cost or change the Favored to something else, maybe a 4 Gold for a 3 Break.