ball grps want players to quit

Rlacoste · August 10

I have asked multiple ball groups why they want to see another population nerf, their answer "we don't care".
Why are they using rush of agony? their answer "cause it is broken"
[snip]
If we have such a small population why on earth are they trying to worsen it????

Tell me one time after an event that our population grew, because I can't think of one.

I watch many players not responding to call outs once they hear it is a ball group. "Let them have the keep" I read in chat. I agree, why give them any satisfaction? They cause super lag and an unhealthy gaming environment. Points isn't a thing anymore, well hasn't been for years, night capping changed the entire game, many do not want to log on while one faction is full pop. Again players making new players quit.

I see 3-6 man groups waiting at resources to 6vs1 new players, so they quit? This is predatorial behavior

[snip]

And stop with this skill thing, this game you don't even need to aim, the killbox is HUUUGE, you have one button builds and groups using rush of agony don't require what you are calling skill.

It is a mobile game!

rant over

[edited for bashing]

SkaraMinoc · August 10

One of the ball groups on PC NA doesn't even like ESO. They stream on Twitch and when viewers ask if ESO is a good game, they say "no" 🤣 They don't care about others outside their group or how much they ruin Cyrodiil for others.

Udrath · August 10

Better be some great game changing news for pvp in Q4, cause it looks like it’s time to quit. PVP was never on the devs mind till the player count drops, might be too late though.

PVP was fun until after Blackwood. Then a few moments here and there when op mythic/meta/proc stuff was nerfed and everyone had to rebuild briefly. Only to to be replaced with something else overtuned that everyone flocks too. Rinse and repeat

SeaGtGruff · August 10

Rlacoste wrote: »

why are they killing the very game they play?

I get the feeling that there is a certain type of gamer who just doesn't care about any of the games they play, by which I mean caring about the health and life of the game. They play so many games that they never seem to form any attachments to any games except on a purely temporary basis. They search for every conceivable way of exploiting or "breaking" whatever game they happen to be playing, and don't give a flip whether they're ruining anyone else's experiences in the game. They bad-mouth the games and game developers even as they're playing those games, and don't care in the slightest whether the games live or die because as far as they're concerned there will always be more games to fill up the spaces left by the dead games.

kookie · August 10

No Ballgroup I play with wants a population nerf?? More people = more killz, bring it.

TechMaybeHic · August 10

Are you sure it's not a snarky response to a player that is clearly already upset with them?

kookie · August 10

Also, I get what you're saying but I think the biggest problem in pvp now is the lag, crashes, and long or broken queues. Ball group behavior is very likely only a small fraction of the overall dwindling pvp population.

Ostonoha · August 10

I have asked multiple 40 man zerg groups why they want to see another population nerf, their answer "we don't care". we want to pve door and take keeps and scrolls without any threat of dying.
Why are they using 40 man soviet swarm tactics? their answer "cause it is broken"
So they join zerg groups to exploit players, this isn't new, but why are they killing the very game they play?
If we have such a small population why on earth are they trying to worsen it????

Tell me one time after an event that our population grew, because I can't think of one.

I watch many players not responding to call outs once they hear it is a 40 man zerg. "Let them have the keep" I read in chat. I agree, why give them any satisfaction? They cause super lag and an unhealthy gaming environment.

I see 40 man zerg guild groups waiting at keeps to 40 v 6 players with cold fire, so they quit? This is predatorial behavior

ZoS is only part of the reason, players are the reason MMOs are in the shape they are today.

We all know ZOS don't care about PVP, but why are YOU ruining it?

And stop with this skill thing, this game you don't even need to aim, the killbox is HUUUGE, you have one button builds and groups using don't require what you are calling skill. Just pull out cold fire and shoot the 6 people while the other 39 players swarm them.

It is a mobile game!

rant over

since im sure ill get called out for it so ill get ahead of that. Yes I do lead a ball group. I wish I never had to as I preferred 6 man groups but the constant massive numbers and siege bots forced my hand. The whole point to this comment of mine is to say that there are multiple issues and ball groups are only a part of the issues in eso pvp.

Jierdanit · August 10

kookie wrote: »

Also, I get what you're saying but I think the biggest problem in pvp now is the lag, crashes, and long or broken queues. Ball group behavior is very likely only a small fraction of the overall dwindling pvp population.

Ball groups are a big reason that Cyro is so laggy and that people crash. Basically every time I am really lagging in Cyro it is because there is a Ball group close by.

Ball groups completely ruin the PvP experience for everyone who is not playing in a Ball Group themselves and its ridiculous to deny that.

SeaGtGruff · August 11

Jierdanit wrote: »

kookie wrote: »

Also, I get what you're saying but I think the biggest problem in pvp now is the lag, crashes, and long or broken queues. Ball group behavior is very likely only a small fraction of the overall dwindling pvp population.

Ball groups are a big reason that Cyro is so laggy and that people crash. Basically every time I am really lagging in Cyro it is because there is a Ball group close by.

Ball groups completely ruin the PvP experience for everyone who is not playing in a Ball Group themselves and its ridiculous to deny that.

I don't know about "ball groups" in general, but it does seem like there are certain groups, or skills, or proc sets-- I really don't know what it is-- which will cause problems for me.

I can be in the middle of a big 3-sided fight without major problems-- some lag, yes, but not huge lag and no disconnects. But then I can ride up to a group from a single faction (not my own) and be instantly disconnected. Case in point, the other night EP had possession of one of DC's keeps-- Aleswell, I think it was-- and I saw that the keep was lit. Thinking that DC was trying to take back our keep, I rode up, only to discover that it was several AD players who were sieging the outer front door. Rather than riding off and heading to Faregyl (where I had a resource capture mission), I decided to try to burn some of AD's siege, so I rode up to a ballista and started to dismount, but was instantly disconnected, literally in mid-dismount. I've seen people in the forums accuse certain guilds of using exploits which supposedly can deliberately cause others to be disconnected, but I don't know if there's any credence to those kinds of claims.

kookie · August 11

Jierdanit wrote: »

kookie wrote: »

Also, I get what you're saying but I think the biggest problem in pvp now is the lag, crashes, and long or broken queues. Ball group behavior is very likely only a small fraction of the overall dwindling pvp population.

Ball groups are a big reason that Cyro is so laggy and that people crash. Basically every time I am really lagging in Cyro it is because there is a Ball group close by.

Ball groups completely ruin the PvP experience for everyone who is not playing in a Ball Group themselves and its ridiculous to deny that.

A group casting anything causes lag, worst lag i get is around zergs and azure blight dorks. Again, Zos issue.

Turtle_Bot · August 11

Ostonoha wrote: »

I have asked multiple 40 man zerg groups why they want to see another population nerf, their answer "we don't care". we want to pve door and take keeps and scrolls without any threat of dying.
Why are they using 40 man soviet swarm tactics? their answer "cause it is broken"
So they join zerg groups to exploit players, this isn't new, but why are they killing the very game they play?
If we have such a small population why on earth are they trying to worsen it????

Tell me one time after an event that our population grew, because I can't think of one.

I watch many players not responding to call outs once they hear it is a 40 man zerg. "Let them have the keep" I read in chat. I agree, why give them any satisfaction? They cause super lag and an unhealthy gaming environment.

I see 40 man zerg guild groups waiting at keeps to 40 v 6 players with cold fire, so they quit? This is predatorial behavior

ZoS is only part of the reason, players are the reason MMOs are in the shape they are today.

We all know ZOS don't care about PVP, but why are YOU ruining it?

And stop with this skill thing, this game you don't even need to aim, the killbox is HUUUGE, you have one button builds and groups using don't require what you are calling skill. Just pull out cold fire and shoot the 6 people while the other 39 players swarm them.

It is a mobile game!

rant over

since im sure ill get called out for it so ill get ahead of that. Yes I do lead a ball group. I wish I never had to as I preferred 6 man groups but the constant massive numbers and siege bots forced my hand. The whole point to this comment of mine is to say that there are multiple issues and ball groups are only a part of the issues in eso pvp.

what do you think forced the 40 man zerg groups in the first place? I'll answer it for you, it's the unkillable balls that blobbed all over cyro, steamrolling everything in their path with zero counterplay.

All the 12 comp ball groups have done is force those same 40 man zergs to either faction stack (60) or just leave the game.

If you want to blame anyone for the zergs being 40+ to kill your 6 man mini-ball then blame the ball groups that came before you forcing the zergs to adapt just like how you adapted from 6 man into 12 man. Stop blaming the "prey" for adapting because the "predators" were left unchecked for too long and became too strong.

Pelanora · August 11

Armies are the natural next evolutionary step I guess.

Lazarus_Rising · August 11

i thought cyro was about huge amount of players fighting each other. Huge battles and sieges.

I dont get why people who want 1vs1 or small scale fights go for laggy cyrodiil. For small scale pvp there is battlegrounds and imperial city.

I do not understand why people do not want adapt and go to IC.

xylena_lazarow · August 11

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

I do not understand why people do not want adapt and go to IC.

I'm all for adapting by avoiding engaging ball groups altogether, but IC is infinitely more toxic than any ball group farming an unflagged keep. You're up against tri faction cartels and literal pro farmers in IC, the rules in IC encourage and reward maliciously shutting down all PvP in the zone so your cartel can farm PvE bosses unopposed, nevermind the random zero risk gankers taking pot shots in the hope of winning the telvar lottery.

In Cyrodiil, all you have to do is stop trying to fight the ball groups. You're not obligated to do so. The off hours reds have already ruined the scoreboard (again), just let the balls PvDoor keeps unopposed and they'll get bored fast. They'll end up forced to spend half their raid evening on PvHorse trying to find a tri faction engagement to crash, it'll get mentally exhausting keeping 12 people doing this. In the absence of mechanical counterplay, use psychological warfare.

Bammlschwamml · August 11

I love fighting ballgroups and i love fighting zergs. Sometimes i even like to chase the tower monkeys. With a few friends who are not afraid of dying, you can have fun in every situation. Cyrodiil is a war zone for groups and big battles, so I wouldn't recommend playing on your own until you are a god tier superman rambo player...

Blaming players for the state of Cyrodiil is funny. Haha. Technical issues are the biggest reason why Cyrodiil can't reach its full potential. Not a couple of trolls... And even with all the performance issues, bugs and exploits, it's still fun and entertaining most of the time.

It's "player vs player"... if you have problems communicating with your enemy, then don't do it. Somehow i always end up making more friends than enemies, even after they call me names. It's just a game. Ignore the zone chat generals. You can find rude people everywhere, not just in eso pvp...

Ostonoha · August 11

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

I have asked multiple 40 man zerg groups why they want to see another population nerf, their answer "we don't care". we want to pve door and take keeps and scrolls without any threat of dying.
Why are they using 40 man soviet swarm tactics? their answer "cause it is broken"
So they join zerg groups to exploit players, this isn't new, but why are they killing the very game they play?
If we have such a small population why on earth are they trying to worsen it????

Tell me one time after an event that our population grew, because I can't think of one.

I watch many players not responding to call outs once they hear it is a 40 man zerg. "Let them have the keep" I read in chat. I agree, why give them any satisfaction? They cause super lag and an unhealthy gaming environment.

I see 40 man zerg guild groups waiting at keeps to 40 v 6 players with cold fire, so they quit? This is predatorial behavior

ZoS is only part of the reason, players are the reason MMOs are in the shape they are today.

We all know ZOS don't care about PVP, but why are YOU ruining it?

And stop with this skill thing, this game you don't even need to aim, the killbox is HUUUGE, you have one button builds and groups using don't require what you are calling skill. Just pull out cold fire and shoot the 6 people while the other 39 players swarm them.

It is a mobile game!

rant over

since im sure ill get called out for it so ill get ahead of that. Yes I do lead a ball group. I wish I never had to as I preferred 6 man groups but the constant massive numbers and siege bots forced my hand. The whole point to this comment of mine is to say that there are multiple issues and ball groups are only a part of the issues in eso pvp.

what do you think forced the 40 man zerg groups in the first place? I'll answer it for you, it's the unkillable balls that blobbed all over cyro, steamrolling everything in their path with zero counterplay.

All the 12 comp ball groups have done is force those same 40 man zergs to either faction stack (60) or just leave the game.

If you want to blame anyone for the zergs being 40+ to kill your 6 man mini-ball then blame the ball groups that came before you forcing the zergs to adapt just like how you adapted from 6 man into 12 man. Stop blaming the "prey" for adapting because the "predators" were left unchecked for too long and became too strong.

there was 6man 12 man and even 24 man ball groups for years. This is not something new. Hell there was even 40 man zergs before even. None of this is new and everyone acting like this just started. How many people remember running into an bat swarm ball groups.

5 years ago you could log in and find 40+ people fighting in a field over and over and over again pushing back and forth between keeps. Now you hardly ever see that. Partly due to the pop caps being so low which I believe is the main issue here. There used to be hour long fights in fields between keeps. Those are almost non existent now. People have decided its better to sit in the keep and shoot siege than it is to run out and engage in the field. There is also not enough of a pop on the map for the factions to even sustain long field fights.

I don't blame anyone, I was being partly sarcastic with my post to show the absurdity of blaming just ball groups and them attempting to "kill the game". It seems the majority of this games pvp that sees any sort of coordinated pvp group, even if its 2 people their first response is to cry foul for someone daring to work as a group or a team. The idea that just removing or nerfing ball groups would fix the game is wrong. Many changes which may be on their end impossible at this point are needed.

Desiato · August 11

Like all Cyrodilic regulars, ball group players are used to criticism about how they play. You are unlikely to get an honest answer from individual players. It is more likely you'll get a sarcastic response.

I don't think it's fair to criticize anyone for using any combination of abilities or sets. Of course in any kind of competitive environment, players will try their best to utilize the tools available to win. I hate pull sets too, but I don't fault groups for using them. This is a hate the game and not the player kind of thing.

I used to play in a several ball groups many years ago, and none of them had the malicious intent of trying to ruin the game for others. Motivations would vary, however. Some wanted to dominate other ball groups. Some wanted to farm AP. Others wanted to control the map. In general, most groups wanted to do some combination of those things.

The most nefarious thing I witnessed up close was an emp trading agreement between the officers of a guild I was a member of and one on another faction. When it came out, it left such a bad taste in everyone's mouth that the guild died soon after.

With that said, I know malicious players exist because malice is part of human nature. In any gathering of humans, we will see a variety of traits including bad ones like narcissism, sadism, sociopathy, misanthropy, nihilism, etc... There are definitely those who play PVP games to enjoy the suffering of their opponents.

Cheating is an unfortunate reality in pretty much every PC game. It's a sign of the times. Because ZOS takes a hands-off approach, it certainly attracts a disproportionate number of bad actors. You're never going to be able to reason with these players.

You say points don't matter, but most players care about AP. Group leaders are particularly conscious of AP because they know if their group isn't rewarding, their members will be less motivated to continue. Particularly after a couple of losses, many group leaders will be motivated to find an easy win.

There are also those who care about the campaign score. A lot of notorious night cappers are obsessed with their faction winning campaigns. There are those who will change their sleep schedules to win campaigns.

LittlePinkDot · August 11

Rlacoste wrote: »

I have asked multiple ball groups why they want to see another population nerf, their answer "we don't care".
Why are they using rush of agony? their answer "cause it is broken"
[snip]
If we have such a small population why on earth are they trying to worsen it????

Tell me one time after an event that our population grew, because I can't think of one.

I watch many players not responding to call outs once they hear it is a ball group. "Let them have the keep" I read in chat. I agree, why give them any satisfaction? They cause super lag and an unhealthy gaming environment. Points isn't a thing anymore, well hasn't been for years, night capping changed the entire game, many do not want to log on while one faction is full pop. Again players making new players quit.

I see 3-6 man groups waiting at resources to 6vs1 new players, so they quit? This is predatorial behavior

[snip]

And stop with this skill thing, this game you don't even need to aim, the killbox is HUUUGE, you have one button builds and groups using rush of agony don't require what you are calling skill.

It is a mobile game!

rant over

There are no one button builds... With the tankyness and healing in this game, that's impossible.

If I see a ball group and I'm alone. I won't engage them. Sneak is your friend.

I think Cyrodiil was meant for mass fights. It wasn't meant for small PvP, that's what battlegrounds are for.
They just need to do something about the low pop caps. The map is just too big for the small caps. Too much horse simulator going on.
There needs to be a way to look at the map and know where you have team mates without having to group.
Too much time is wandering around trying to find the action. There also needs to be more transitus points.

I don't really care about "night capping." It doesn't exist. Different people live in different time zones. The world doesn't revolve around your personal work schedule.

[edited to remove quote]

Stafford197 · August 11

Not sure if this is a hot take, but blaming “ball groups” for ESO’s problems is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard in any video game.

What is a ball group? It’s an organized group of players who are playing the game. Cyrodiil was advertised to support 1800 player campaigns at launch, yet we are angry that maybe 8-12 people are playing together?

Many Item Sets and Abilities provide powerful benefits to you and your nearby grouped allies. Do you expect players to intentionally not use these?

ZOS is responsible for every success and failure within their game. Combat balance, lag, player behaviors, player retention…. ZOS creates the environment we are playing in. I used to PvP a ton in this game and had lots of fun. Now I no longer PvP because the game has deteriorated dramatically due to not being properly managed. It’s beyond bizarre how some PvPers will blame balance and performance issues on their community instead of on the ones who literally created the game.

Dracosin369 · August 11

Ball groups wouldn't be such a problem if the population caps were still 100+. Its that to effectively counter a ball group you need 50=60% of your population to respond, when the cap is only 80. Solos and small groups don't have the coordination to kill them effectively, so it takes numbers, in the 30-50 range. That effectively cripples a faction unless it is poplocked because you don't have the numbers to do anything else. Because of the low populations and low caps, Ball groups have an overlarge effect on the map.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 11

Well, if that is their goal, then at least for me they succeeded. I am no longer PvP-ing.

Bushido2513 · August 12

Generally in PVP players just don't really care about other players they aren't somehow aligned with or have a relationship with. It's not personal, and if you tend to take it too personal you're likely to do a better job frustrating yourself than any player can.

I mostly avoid cyro at this point not because of groups of players but more because of lag and fights that take forever to end where it's hard to have meaningful damage because of players being tanky and having so many off heals.

I wouldn't blame players at all since all of this is really under the control of ZOS. I don't expect a ball group to take it easy on a newbie any more than I can throw a meatball past a hungry dog.

Fix the lag and give heals the pale order/ rallying cry treatment and I'd try cyron again

reiverx · August 12

Ball groups are far more noticeable because of the low population. I don't think the pop cap will ever be raised. Maybe They'll lower it as the population dwindles into BGvBG.

Kartalin · August 12

Used to be organized groups would have to kite to find an advantage when outnumbered, whittling down opponents to achieve a victory. With the ability to pull nearby opponents to a precise location and stack massive coordinated AOE damage on the spot, it’s much easier to find an opening. We still kite around as needed, but more so it’s just to keep on the move so the opposing siege doesn’t get trained in on us.

With scribing, we’ve seen some truly impressive shield stacks on both teammates and opponents. Our healing numbers are down in logs because shields are stacking so well.

At the same time though, I actually took more damage from Azureblight than siege in our raid last night. What we’re seeing is essentially an arms race that had escalated out of control. 12 person groups with massive shields, healing and focused burst, larger zergs stacking dots laced with blight seeds on top of blanket negates and wide spectrum siege, and groups of tanks trying to stand tall and survive amidst the storm. It’s no wonder a wet behind the ears pve player has no chance just wandering into this environment.

cofdeath420 · August 13

What really gets me is that some of the ball groups are just one guy running bots.

xylena_lazarow · August 13

Kartalin wrote: »

At the same time though, I actually took more damage from Azureblight than siege in our raid last night

If anything, Azureblight is doing its job, while siege damage is too easily countered.

ZOS_Icy · August 13

Greetings,

After further review, we have decided it is best to close this thread for being non-constructive. When making threads, we ask that they be civil, constructive, and kept within the Community Guidelines. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

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