Issue With Rajhin

kmfdm · June 2022

The Rajhin Patron ability probably needs some tweaking. Sure, it is very natural and common to have a slog-like ability in a deckbuilding game, but the problem here is that it can be countered with the Treasury Patron so easily. I pay 3 gold to add a slog card Bewilderment to my opponent's deck, and they pay 2 gold to turn it into a Writ of Coin using the Treasury. In the end, we both use our limited Patron ability that turn, I pay 3, my opponent pays 2, and they even get a +2 gold generating card in their deck, which is actually quite beneficial at the beginning of the game. It does seem that the Patron Ability slows me down--as the one who uses it--much more than it slows down my opponent. In other words, I'm actually paying for slowing down myself when I'm using the patron ability.

Skvysh · June 2022

You're only losing something if the opponent has free/cheap Destroy ready on that turn.

Otherwise, they have to spend 2 gold and patron power, on a specific turn, to turn a useless card into a slightly less useless one. You're still adding a card that doesn't necessarily help your opponent in the long run, potentially breaking combos in their hand. You're also then forcing them to respond to it somehow (or just ignore and live with it) - spending resources on Destroying Bewilderment or a patron power usage which could have gone somewhere else.

If anything, it's a bit ridiculous, when a player can pick up two big power generators like Armoury and SWV and then just avoid purchasing anything else, spending any coin they have on Rahjin and slowing you down even further. As you're scrambling to either match their power or somehow put up some defenses, your hand suddenly contains 1-2 worthless cards that you can't even afford to use Treasury power on.

It would be, perhaps, more fair if you could use Destroy on your Cooldown pile as well, allowing you to get rid of Bewilderment and such as soon as they are made (or get rid of cards, in general, not necessarily on turn they were played on).

tatsukenji · June 2022

Your opponent HAS to use the treasure patron to get rid of it. Otherwise, its a guaranteed -1 card at some other turn. Pretty great value.

Jaimeh · June 2022

kmfdm wrote: »

The Rajhin Patron ability probably needs some tweaking. Sure, it is very natural and common to have a slog-like ability in a deckbuilding game, but the problem here is that it can be countered with the Treasury Patron so easily. I pay 3 gold to add a slog card Bewilderment to my opponent's deck, and they pay 2 gold to turn it into a Writ of Coin using the Treasury. In the end, we both use our limited Patron ability that turn, I pay 3, my opponent pays 2, and they even get a +2 gold generating card in their deck, which is actually quite beneficial at the beginning of the game. It does seem that the Patron Ability slows me down--as the one who uses it--much more than it slows down my opponent. In other words, I'm actually paying for slowing down myself when I'm using the patron ability.

They do lose something in that they have 1 less card that turn, and even if they might turn to a writ, so technically not loss, it could be a card that breaks down their combo in that round, so I think that's what signifies the loss.

kmfdm · June 2022

tatsukenji wrote: »

Your opponent HAS to use the treasure patron to get rid of it. Otherwise, its a guaranteed -1 card at some other turn. Pretty great value.

Yes, they lose something, but you lose more. Thats what I meant. You lose 1 Patron use and 3 Gold. They lose 1 Patron use and 2 gold, and the result is a Writ of Coin in their deck. They pay less and get a benefit, you pay more and get nothing.
Situationally, it may--in some very rare scenarios--be beneficial for you. Skvysh is right, the difference is they have to pay 2 gold on a specific turn, while you may use it whenever you have nothing better to use 3 gold and 1 Patron, but how often does that happen? Sure, if you draw Armory early and then just spam Bewilderment, that is a clear win, but drawing Armory early is a clear win anyway in most cases. I think Bewilderment either has to cost 2 gold or it cant be turned into a Writ of Gold by the Treasury Patron.

dmnqwk · June 2022

I actually agree that Rahjin's patron power is a bit ineffectual. The best option isn't to change the activation power for neutral/unfavored, but potentially to change the Favored activation

Something like:
Pay 4 Coin: They gain a Bewilderment Card and you gain 3 Prestige.

Allowing the Patron to turn your large coin into a form of prestige would be quite nice for the deck, especially considering the other 2 coin decks provide prestige alternatives through the Patron power.

Skvysh · June 2022

kmfdm wrote: »

Skvysh is right, the difference is they have to pay 2 gold on a specific turn, while you may use it whenever you have nothing better to use 3 gold and 1 Patron, but how often does that happen?

More often than you think (assuming there's no Orgnum in play) - once you're done turning all your Gold into Writs, there's often nothing better to use your patron power on. And with a lot of cards on the table being either awful for the stage of the game or very situational, that 3 gold is best spent on Bewilderment. It is also, of course, a "win more" patron power when you have 2 power generating cards early on while your opponent struggles to get something good. Much of its power comes from the fact that there's not a whole lot a player can do when they were dealt bad cards and the card design values power as much as all the other, less useful keywords (Hostile Takeover or Jeering Shadow look like the right "value" cards on paper when you put gold numbers on each resource and keyword, but are completely worthless compared to Amoury).

kmfdm wrote: »

I think Bewilderment either has to cost 2 gold or it cant be turned into a Writ of Gold by the Treasury Patron.

It definitely shouldn't cost 2 in its current state, unless it was automatically Destroyed after 1 usage, as it would turn "win more" situations into a slaughter instead, allowing those lucky turn 1/2 Armoury/SWV decks to punish the opponent even more. Not being able to Writ it (or anything else) would be better, ofc, but it's all just a band-aid solution to a much bigger problem - power is valued too low and too infrequent in comparison to other resources/keywords.

You could have a 5 cost card that gives you 8 gold and nothing else, making it as good as Armoury in theory - but everyone would still pick up Armoury every time if they had the choice, because nothing guarantees that you'll be able to buy anything good with those 8 coins, instead being forced to clog up your deck with 2-3 cost cards that won't benefit you much in the later turns, while leaving you out of gold when a good card finally comes up.

kmfdm · June 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

I actually agree that Rahjin's patron power is a bit ineffectual. The best option isn't to change the activation power for neutral/unfavored, but potentially to change the Favored activation

Something like:
Pay 4 Coin: They gain a Bewilderment Card and you gain 3 Prestige.

Allowing the Patron to turn your large coin into a form of prestige would be quite nice for the deck, especially considering the other 2 coin decks provide prestige alternatives through the Patron power.

That is a good option. Rajhin has issues getting prestige, and that would fix both issues.

I was testing Rajhin and played almost 100 games trying to pursue the Slog/Healing strategy with cards like Stubborn Shadow and Prowling (i.e. healing in other deckbuilders is equal to opponent prestige loss in ToT) and I couldnt get it to work, and I tested it with different secondary patrons. While a few games I was able to fully stunlock my opponent, in vast majority of games, the combo took too long to start. While Grand Larcery is one of the strongest cards in game, the remaining cards are way too slow, and the patron ability doesnt support the Slog/Healing strategy sufficiently. The fact that Bewilderment can be turned into a Writ of Gold breaks the entire synergy, imo. As it stands now, Rajhin seems like a secondary and very situationally effective patron good only if you want to fill the tavern with useless cards (for instance when you go for Orgnum rush, tho Celarus is better for that).

tatsukenji · June 2022

kmfdm wrote: »

tatsukenji wrote: »

Your opponent HAS to use the treasure patron to get rid of it. Otherwise, its a guaranteed -1 card at some other turn. Pretty great value.

Yes, they lose something, but you lose more. Thats what I meant. You lose 1 Patron use and 3 Gold. They lose 1 Patron use and 2 gold, and the result is a Writ of Coin in their deck. They pay less and get a benefit, you pay more and get nothing.
Situationally, it may--in some very rare scenarios--be beneficial for you. Skvysh is right, the difference is they have to pay 2 gold on a specific turn, while you may use it whenever you have nothing better to use 3 gold and 1 Patron, but how often does that happen? Sure, if you draw Armory early and then just spam Bewilderment, that is a clear win, but drawing Armory early is a clear win anyway in most cases. I think Bewilderment either has to cost 2 gold or it cant be turned into a Writ of Gold by the Treasury Patron.

"You lose more" is what I fundamentally disagree with. In the end, it fills the opponents deck with noise whether it be Bewilderment or a Writ of Gold. While Writ of Gold is extremely beneficial during early game (and necessary), it still stops combos. By mid game, you'd prefer getting those extra crows or whatever. By end game, you'd wish they were gone.

Hawkeye · June 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

I actually agree that Rahjin's patron power is a bit ineffectual. The best option isn't to change the activation power for neutral/unfavored, but potentially to change the Favored activation

Something like:
Pay 4 Coin: They gain a Bewilderment Card and you gain 3 Prestige.

Allowing the Patron to turn your large coin into a form of prestige would be quite nice for the deck, especially considering the other 2 coin decks provide prestige alternatives through the Patron power.

To much prestige. That would make it to easy to just spam it and get 3 each time. 3 Prestige may no seem like much, but it can change the outcome of a win or a loss.

Heartrage · June 2022

kmfdm wrote: »

tatsukenji wrote: »

Your opponent HAS to use the treasure patron to get rid of it. Otherwise, its a guaranteed -1 card at some other turn. Pretty great value.

Yes, they lose something, but you lose more. Thats what I meant. You lose 1 Patron use and 3 Gold. They lose 1 Patron use and 2 gold, and the result is a Writ of Coin in their deck. They pay less and get a benefit, you pay more and get nothing.
Situationally, it may--in some very rare scenarios--be beneficial for you. Skvysh is right, the difference is they have to pay 2 gold on a specific turn, while you may use it whenever you have nothing better to use 3 gold and 1 Patron, but how often does that happen? Sure, if you draw Armory early and then just spam Bewilderment, that is a clear win, but drawing Armory early is a clear win anyway in most cases. I think Bewilderment either has to cost 2 gold or it cant be turned into a Writ of Gold by the Treasury Patron.

They lose 1 patron use, two gold and a card in their turn. They can’t use the treasury on it until they got it in their hand and lost a card in their hand. For early game, that mean they basically lost 1 gold generation at least to dismiss it (so 1 patron use + 3 gold total). For a late game, it can mean losing +2 gold cards, interrupting combos and forcing them to take one more turn to get rally. If it’s not dismissed, it can also be much worse and incapacitate a player for a whole turn with multiple copies. If you pay attention, it’s even possible to predict the “stun” by counting cards and with some luck.

Of course, it won’t always be good. I played a game that I got an early reach agent that dismisses cards and my opponent spent 9-12 gold on the patron as I was building crow and dismissing him with my agent. However, it is still a good option to really impede another player’s ability to generate power.

Necrotech_Master · June 2022

maybe for more impact it should add 2 bewilderment cards to the opponents deck if rahjin is favored, but at a slightly higher coin cost (4-5 coins)

neutral/unfavored could remain the same

Personofsecrets · June 2022

I'm coming for you @kmfdm

Casdha · June 2022

Best hand I've pulled off with Rajhin

I tried for all 5 but couldn't get them to line up right before the game was over.

Naomi_K · June 2022

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I'm coming for you @kmfdm

that shouldn't slow down your opponent too much

Necrotech_Master · June 2022

Casdha wrote: »

Best hand I've pulled off with Rajhin

I tried for all 5 but couldn't get them to line up right before the game was over.

ive been able to get the opponent to discard all 5 cards from their hand a couple of times

jarring lullaby, the 10 cost card, and the 7 cost contract card stacking together is a good way to do it

Naomi_K · June 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Best hand I've pulled off with Rajhin

I tried for all 5 but couldn't get them to line up right before the game was over.

ive been able to get the opponent to discard all 5 cards from their hand a couple of times

jarring lullaby, the 10 cost card, and the 7 cost contract card stacking together is a good way to do it

Today I got Jarring Lullaby + Twilight Slumber + 2 of the contract cards + a crow contract card. They had to discard 7 cards.

YenYuan · April 18

kmfdm wrote: »

they even get a +2 gold generating card in their deck, which is actually quite beneficial at the beginning of the game.

This is a key point I think. Bewilderment is actually a pretty strong late game patron. Considering it's always available, Reach bonfires cost the same amount and will mostly be used by then, and your opponent may have a much more refined deck. Forcing your opponent to pay 2 and take a treasury card or pay for removal can be a slap in the face if they don't have enough in-deck removal cards.

It's also underrated that this ability isn't too powerful. I don't think anyone would want an ability like this to be overtuned so zos has probably found a nice place for it where you can get stuck but remove and discard neutralize it nicely.

kmfdm wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

the patron ability doesnt support the Slog/Healing strategy sufficiently.

I think this is the other key point. Rajhin has "toxic" mechanics that the majority of deckbuilder players detest, however mercifully those options are extremely weak. You can still create powerful combos with rajhin, however it's rare that your win condition is based on slog cards or healing. Because both players play each deck in tribute, there's a place for a deck like Rajhin which doesn't bring much of a wincon to the table. 3 decks usually allows for multiple wincons already and the slog and healing from rajhin are situational supplements to other strategies. Rajhin's discard wincon being super slow is cool to me bc I'd never play it as a primary deck and it's funny when it occasionally happens.

eg. Druid King loves Rajhin's agents and has cool interactions with its knockouts, and obsessive deck-refiners like myself can enjoy the buffed bonfire of moonlit illusion and the compact economy of Grand Larceny and PnP.

Seraphayel · April 18

For me Rahjin is simply too slow when the opponent picks a power generating deck or Psijic. It’s simply not worth it from my experience. I think the patron ability should act like Orgnum, ranking up in cost and not always costing 3. Or there should be another thing it does when favored. 3 cost for just giving your opponent an additional card is way too expensive and slow to be effective.

I mean some say it‘s a counter for Crow but it really isn’t, you can easily outcrow/i] your opponent because it’s so expensive and slow to get to an amount of Bewilderments that would really change the trajectory. I hardly see anyone in the Top 100 pick Rahjin and if they do it‘s easily countered.

Neoauspex · April 22

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I'm coming for you @kmfdm

One time for no real reason at all I put in quite a bit of work with an NPC to make sure every card in their deck was a Bewilderment:

https://youtu.be/JqfMH9dy-sY?si=Kemb0OQkI2fgcz-3

ZOS_Icy · April 22

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in June 2022. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.