Proposition to keep vampirism viable while nerfing it your way zenimax please read this tread

ElliottXO · May 2014

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

I absolutely don't want to be a vampire anymore, even considered quitting, but I won't I still enjoy the game and I will enjoy it without being a vampire, but it totally ruins the feel for me, I understand the ulti nerf, I understand the elusive mist nerf, but I don't understand the drain essence nerf, we can still only use it once perf target, and it still can't be used on enemy immune to stuns, it still only lasts 3 seconds, and now it's had a 3x cost increase, why should I have this ability on my bar when I could get more effective health regen and stamina regen from siphoning attacks? Everything that made being a vampire despite the debuffs has been nerfed so it's virtually useless now, so now my character looks ugly, has 2 useless skills( I never used Mist Form anyways.) is 50% weaker to fire and has 75% reduced health regen. What are the awesome plus sides of becoming an immortal blood sucker again?

A whole skill line. Increased magicka/stamina regeneration. Damage reduction. Sneak bonus. Did I forget something?

Funny how everyone here calculated a starving level 4 vampire into their build. I guess ZOS didn't really caught the essence of a vampire. Vampires don't like sun and vampires need to feed.

PS: health regeneration is the least important stat of the whole character sheet.

It is still beneficial to be vamp, especially for pve.

Yeah 5% increased stam/magicka regen that's soooo good, it's not even noticeable, oh you mean the damage mitigation below 50% health(which scales as you lose more health so at about 50% health I believe you get about 10% damage mitigation and by the time you're at about 10% health you have 50% damage mitigation, how is this useful?), where I'm already dying and soon to be dead anyways? What sneak bonus, we don't get a sneak bonus, we get dark stalker which lets us enter sneak quicker ONLY at night, and increasing our stealthed movement speed comparable to that of concealed weapon and it's debatable whether or not that last part is also only supposed to work at night. Oh yeah you forgot all of the above are BROKEN, and DON'T WORK unless you relog every single time you die, or change instances. And I will argue that the 75% health regen is VERY noticeable, whenever I get ressed by, say a soul stone, or by my own soul magic passive, I res and by the end of the affect, other players have full health, I'm missing a good quarter of my health pool. That's noticeable. Vampires didn't need these nerfs, and nerfing our cost reduction of abilities down to 21% is over kill. Yeah let's nerf vampires even further into the ground, not give them anything to make up for these massive nerfs and on top of it, let's ignore all their broken passives, because bad pvp'ers don't know how to stay at range when fighting a vampire.

It's 10% to magicka and stamina recovery according to my knowledge. The damage mitigation you are describing is superb. You need about +1500 armor to get the same effect without being vampire. Do you even know how low the damage mitigation in this game by armor is? Health regeneration is useless. I am also missing a quarter of health without being vampire, besides it's out of combat anyway. No idea where you get that info from, but health regeneration only affects in-combat values.

And the off trade for pve is only 20-30% fire damage if you jam on an enchant.

It's obvious: you simply want to be superior as a vampire. I'll look forward to more delicious vamp tears, because as a min/maxer I'd still say there needs something to be done do people don't run around in stage 4. Health regeneration is useless. Do the math.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO · May 2014

roflcopter wrote: »

cwbriggs6ub17_ESO wrote: »

20% reduction at stage 4 is BS .... vamps are too weak for this ... all because noobs to stupid to stay out of range AOE for bat form.... this may be the straw that causes me to cancel my monthly subscription. ( oh and by the way thats not the only ultimate that can be spammed)

Part of the reason i will leave is i was a vampire in oblivian, skyrim and wanna be one here and not crippled ............

The MAIN reason i will leave ( and my two friends i pay there monthly sub fee too .... so 45 a month a month less for zenimax) is if Zena max is gonna nerf thngs in MAJOR way after months of beta this game is too unstable. In one month they are going to increase my main skill cost 200% ..... i just cant trust em to build any sort of class coz there gonna change it in the future off what the latest youtube vid is popular this week.

Trust me lots of vamps will leave.

How many vamps will leave exactly?

This one is staying.

The sky isn't falling. World isn't ending. Vamps will be viable in their own way. Just not the way they use to.

Exactly I planned to be a vampire the entire time

ArgonianAssassin · May 2014

ElliottXO wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

I absolutely don't want to be a vampire anymore, even considered quitting, but I won't I still enjoy the game and I will enjoy it without being a vampire, but it totally ruins the feel for me, I understand the ulti nerf, I understand the elusive mist nerf, but I don't understand the drain essence nerf, we can still only use it once perf target, and it still can't be used on enemy immune to stuns, it still only lasts 3 seconds, and now it's had a 3x cost increase, why should I have this ability on my bar when I could get more effective health regen and stamina regen from siphoning attacks? Everything that made being a vampire despite the debuffs has been nerfed so it's virtually useless now, so now my character looks ugly, has 2 useless skills( I never used Mist Form anyways.) is 50% weaker to fire and has 75% reduced health regen. What are the awesome plus sides of becoming an immortal blood sucker again?

A whole skill line. Increased magicka/stamina regeneration. Damage reduction. Sneak bonus. Did I forget something?

Funny how everyone here calculated a starving level 4 vampire into their build. I guess ZOS didn't really caught the essence of a vampire. Vampires don't like sun and vampires need to feed.

PS: health regeneration is the least important stat of the whole character sheet.

It is still beneficial to be vamp, especially for pve.

Yeah 5% increased stam/magicka regen that's soooo good, it's not even noticeable, oh you mean the damage mitigation below 50% health(which scales as you lose more health so at about 50% health I believe you get about 10% damage mitigation and by the time you're at about 10% health you have 50% damage mitigation, how is this useful?), where I'm already dying and soon to be dead anyways? What sneak bonus, we don't get a sneak bonus, we get dark stalker which lets us enter sneak quicker ONLY at night, and increasing our stealthed movement speed comparable to that of concealed weapon and it's debatable whether or not that last part is also only supposed to work at night. Oh yeah you forgot all of the above are BROKEN, and DON'T WORK unless you relog every single time you die, or change instances. And I will argue that the 75% health regen is VERY noticeable, whenever I get ressed by, say a soul stone, or by my own soul magic passive, I res and by the end of the affect, other players have full health, I'm missing a good quarter of my health pool. That's noticeable. Vampires didn't need these nerfs, and nerfing our cost reduction of abilities down to 21% is over kill. Yeah let's nerf vampires even further into the ground, not give them anything to make up for these massive nerfs and on top of it, let's ignore all their broken passives, because bad pvp'ers don't know how to stay at range when fighting a vampire.

It's 10% to magicka and stamina recovery according to my knowledge. The damage mitigation you are describing is superb. You need about +1500 armor to get the same effect without being vampire. Do you even know how low the damage mitigation in this game by armor is? Health regeneration is useless. I am also missing a quarter of health without being vampire, besides it's out of combat anyway. No idea where you get that info from, but health regeneration only affects in-combat values.

And the off trade for pve is only 20-30% fire damage if you jam on an enchant.

It's obvious: you simply want to be superior as a vampire. I'll look forward to more delicious vamp tears, because as a min/maxer I'd still say there needs something to be done do people don't run around in stage 4. Health regeneration is useless. Do the math.

Then I was misinformed but no I was don't want vampire superiority. I'll just wait to see how the changes play out in game, and I will continue to be a vampire regardless, because vampires are cool.

aresdestructorub17_ESO1 · May 2014

In stage 4 my health does not regen out of combat. While in stage 1 I can wait between fights to regain health if I need to I have to use a pot or get healed from something else in stage 4. I don't know if it's supposed to affect out of combat regen or not but it definitely did for me. Who knows, maybe it's another one of those issues that changes with zoning or something.

Gisgo · May 2014

I would expect vampires to be somewhat a hassle to play, so only players that really wants to play one, and are good at it, would do it.
This would keep the vampire population at realistic (dont start the fantasy argument pls) level... i dont know... 10% of the population sounds fine to me.

Right now NOT being a vampire means gimping yourself.

Go figure how hard it should be nerfed.
Yes, that hard.

Chryos · May 2014

This is more like "If I cant have my way right this second, I'll take my ball back and go home"

I have found a work around in the form of changing up tactics, for most or all of these problems, until they can be properly resolved through testing. I have gripes and complaints too, but I dont feel compelled to threaten to ragequit the game after month number 1. Thats just silly talk.

toxikh.earth89neb18_ESO · May 2014

im a NB and got cured today of vampirism wich thank god coz i sucked at it, i had 1000 fire resitance and still was dieing like a fly. they shouldnt make bat swarm to make the player invisible, let it regenerate but not make it untargetable. https://youtube.com/watch?v=B0kuFzD7_***&feature=youtu.be

aresdestructorub17_ESO1 · May 2014

toxikh.earth89neb18_ESO wrote: »

im a NB and got cured today of vampirism wich thank god coz i sucked at it, i had 1000 fire resitance and still was dieing like a fly. they shouldnt make bat swarm to make the player invisible, let it regenerate but not make it untargetable. https://youtube.com/watch?v=B0kuFzD7_***&feature=youtu.be

one morph makes you invisible, the other heals you. you can't have both at the same time.

Phoenix99 · May 2014

aresdestructorub17_ESO1 wrote: »

toxikh.earth89neb18_ESO wrote: »

im a NB and got cured today of vampirism wich thank god coz i sucked at it, i had 1000 fire resitance and still was dieing like a fly. they shouldnt make bat swarm to make the player invisible, let it regenerate but not make it untargetable. https://youtube.com/watch?v=B0kuFzD7_***&feature=youtu.be

one morph makes you invisible, the other heals you. you can't have both at the same time.

yeah, but the invis morph is broken, since mage light does not reveal you, and it should

cjtignub17_ESO · May 2014

Good post. There really needs to be a reduction in the base cost of vamp skills to make up for this massive nerf. Valp abilities r very expensive bc of 60% cost reduction in stage 4.

Nox_Aeterna · May 2014

I do hope they keep vampires viable , cause i have always vampires in ES , and i would be quite pissed if i got hit in PvE because of the PvP nuts.

Memnock · May 2014

I got a question , if the issue here is that people found out ways to reduce the ultimate cost to nothing via armor sets , then why the hell aren't the armor sets that reduce ultimate cost removed from the game and test it out to see if that works out better ?
I mean why does this need to be about : hey lets screw up a hole skill line , because we have in the game some pieces of gear and that one thing about being an emperor that make this one ultimate overperform.

Noth · May 2014

Memnock wrote: »

I got a question , if the issue here is that people found out ways to reduce the ultimate cost to nothing via armor sets , then why the hell aren't the armor sets that reduce ultimate cost removed from the game and test it out to see if that works out better ?
I mean why does this need to be about : hey lets screw up a hole skill line , because we have in the game some pieces of gear and that one thing about being an emperor that make this one ultimate overperform.

because nothing else but the vampire can reduce them so low. Every issue always comes back to a singular skill line... and that is the vampire. What is balanced (or more closely balanced) outside the vampire becomes OP when combined with the OP. That shows that the issue is the vampire.

ArgonianAssassin · May 2014

Noth wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

I got a question , if the issue here is that people found out ways to reduce the ultimate cost to nothing via armor sets , then why the hell aren't the armor sets that reduce ultimate cost removed from the game and test it out to see if that works out better ?
I mean why does this need to be about : hey lets screw up a hole skill line , because we have in the game some pieces of gear and that one thing about being an emperor that make this one ultimate overperform.

because nothing else but the vampire can reduce them so low. Every issue always comes back to a singular skill line... and that is the vampire. What is balanced (or more closely balanced) outside the vampire becomes OP when combined with the OP. That shows that the issue is the vampire.

Vampires are perfectly balanced when not combined with sorc and ulti reduce set, the problem comes back to sorc's, the solution is to 1. nerf the armor set and 2. nerf the sorc ulti reduce passive, I find it preferable to nerf 1 armor set and 1 passive in 1 skill line of 1 class than nerfing everything in a whole skill line.

Noth · May 2014

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Noth wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

I got a question , if the issue here is that people found out ways to reduce the ultimate cost to nothing via armor sets , then why the hell aren't the armor sets that reduce ultimate cost removed from the game and test it out to see if that works out better ?
I mean why does this need to be about : hey lets screw up a hole skill line , because we have in the game some pieces of gear and that one thing about being an emperor that make this one ultimate overperform.

because nothing else but the vampire can reduce them so low. Every issue always comes back to a singular skill line... and that is the vampire. What is balanced (or more closely balanced) outside the vampire becomes OP when combined with the OP. That shows that the issue is the vampire.

Vampires are perfectly balanced when not combined with sorc and ulti reduce set, the problem comes back to sorc's, the solution is to 1. nerf the armor set and 2. nerf the sorc ulti reduce passive, I find it preferable to nerf 1 armor set and 1 passive in 1 skill line of 1 class than nerfing everything in a whole skill line.

Considering that after this nerf, the vampire skills will still be as cheap and in some cases cheaper than other class skills, still retain their purpose (and in the case of drain, still remain as powerful as it once was). I'd say this is much more to the point and only effects the vampire issue with those other factors. If you nerf the other factors you nerf absolutely everything else in the game that uses those the might be balanced or close to balanced. If those other factors were really the issue, then all builds and classes that use them would be OP and that is simply not the case.

ArgonianAssassin · May 2014

Noth wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Noth wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

I got a question , if the issue here is that people found out ways to reduce the ultimate cost to nothing via armor sets , then why the hell aren't the armor sets that reduce ultimate cost removed from the game and test it out to see if that works out better ?
I mean why does this need to be about : hey lets screw up a hole skill line , because we have in the game some pieces of gear and that one thing about being an emperor that make this one ultimate overperform.

because nothing else but the vampire can reduce them so low. Every issue always comes back to a singular skill line... and that is the vampire. What is balanced (or more closely balanced) outside the vampire becomes OP when combined with the OP. That shows that the issue is the vampire.

Vampires are perfectly balanced when not combined with sorc and ulti reduce set, the problem comes back to sorc's, the solution is to 1. nerf the armor set and 2. nerf the sorc ulti reduce passive, I find it preferable to nerf 1 armor set and 1 passive in 1 skill line of 1 class than nerfing everything in a whole skill line.

Considering that after this nerf, the vampire skills will still be as cheap and in some cases cheaper than other class skills, still retain their purpose (and in the case of drain, still remain as powerful as it once was). I'd say this is much more to the point and only effects the vampire issue with those other factors. If you nerf the other factors you nerf absolutely everything else in the game that uses those the might be balanced or close to balanced. If those other factors were really the issue, then all builds and classes that use them would be OP and that is simply not the case.

Okay then, but wouldn't it still make more sense to just add a soft cap to ulti reduction items and passives rather than nerfing a whole skill line? This way nothing gets nerfed, vampires and sorcs and the item set all remain as is, but they just can't be stacked together to make an incredibly OP build is it is now, after this vampire nerf you can still stack all of these ulti reduction passives and still spam low costing ultimate abilities. It's not ALL vampires fault that sorcerer's are abusing the system.

NakedSnake · May 2014

The real problem here is broken skills and passives that make certain class builds OP right now. Nerfing one ability will not solve the problem but create a larger imbalance.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · May 2014

Well I guess it wont be the end of the world if they nerf vamp to oblivion but everyone gunna have a way harder time surviving in vet zone especialy the nightblades wich have no decent aoe save drain power wich is bugged and deals 70% of their damage trought vampirism (vampirism was the only think making nightblade viable in most situation). Truth is 95% of the veteran character build use vampirism because of its easy access to ultimate and self heal... if we nerf vampirism to much we may end up also having to nerf veteran content. Basicaly not using vampirism in veteran or behing a dragonknight/sorcerer abusing overpowered mechanics like healing surge is similar to a death sentence. Now that they did this abominable patch lets see how impossible veteran content become for some

lets see how nightblade player leave one by one... let us see if they can still pretend sorcerer and dk are balanced class when this very balance between class superiority and inferiority hanged over the ability to use an ultimate and a few out of class ability. And let us see how poorly cyrodiil go for all the people who believed having the vamp cost increased to 70 will do anything.

Combat & Gameplay
Vampire •Fixed an issue with the ability Bat Swarm so it will no longer stack with itself. It will instead refresh if re-cast.
•Reduced the cost reduction per stage of vampire abilities.
•Reduced the movement speed bonus of the ability Mist Form.

The sky fall... the earth crumble...we shall stand tall...
-Adele (Skyfall)

Phoenix99 · May 2014

in other words, you need to improve

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · May 2014

Phoenix are you a nightblade if not and you play a sorcerer or a dragonknight I subjest you stop arguing... All nightblade player can agree on the lack of survivability or aoe damage. Veil of blades doesn't win fight neither will it save yourself in a 1 v 6+ in public veteran dungeon. All good nightblade build use devouring swarm and invigorating drain for a reason... because its near mendatory.

I did the whole vet game by spamming drain power and funnel health with a resto staff a few healing spell and my vampiric ability in a permanent active unstoppable. Can you dare argue that nightblade isn't totally lackluster on the aoe level? Single target move with heavy dps don't get things done in this game maybe its time you realise that. What dragonknight sorcerer and Templar have by default nightblade needs to aquire trought external source, Where are my armor spells (lol 4 second of decent armor at the expense of massive magicka what a joke when DK have it for 20 and sorc have it perma)? Where are my heavy damage aoe effect? I think you've had the game to easy on you so far maybe its time you play the ''hard mode'' class dear or try to play the game as a nightblade character witheout using vampirism just to see how hard it is to deal with multi mob party without having a single effective damage aoe in your bar save for your ultimate spell.. trust me soon you will learn playing NB is easyer by hiding in stealth and bypassing all the mob then by fighting them (wich by the way is very harmfull to your global leveling rate).

Nightblade pretends to be about damage spike... funny thing is NB currently is only good at attrition and kiting. Go ahead and one shot that one caster mob in a pack of 6... the 5 others are gunna crush you before you even got the time to scream ''help me''.

Phoenix99 · May 2014

NB has the highest single target DMG potential. So plz, there are people doing Caglor Vet stuff with NBs from what I hear, so perhaps you are just too used to a certain playstyle? It is somewhat lackluster in the AoE department, but it can sustain itself in fights quite ok, if you do not aggro the whole area on you (it is slower, but doable), especially when in team dungeons...

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · May 2014

single target are you just not reading?

Single target is ---u s e l e s s--- in veteran go learn how things are done x.x
I do veteran in public dungeons in 1 v 6 and I survive and kill the mobs but I still deal most of my damage from ultimate generation trought sap essence invigorating drain and devouring swarm. If anything do you seriously think those Craglorn NB are not vampire considering the majority of the successful player in veteran are vamps? Please stop kidding yourself at this level either you are bowvamp or you are bloodmage vamp or you are a NB heavy tank likely also a vampire for the heals. As a NB either way you still are a vamp with most possible builds. If you are neither then likely you are doing the whole game in group because you must be having an insane hard time doing it alone.

Ive been doing veteran as a vamp in constant stage four bug (aka 200 cost devouring swarm) since the beginning and while I did not realy had this much trouble using it im still anoyed I got a feature I could have used to make my darn life easyer in veteran and made the build 100% optimal ruined before the passive even started to work correctly in the first place.

Go play a nightblade already we all gunna place our bets on how you long it take before you tire and give up because you've been spoiled to no end before by playing any of the other class especialy DK or Sorcerer.

Niminion · May 2014

Five Stages of Loss and Grief

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Jaxom · May 2014

Agree Kyobi- I just swapped my entire build around after hitting Vr2 and realized that pulling packs of 3 yielded me more trouble than I wanted with my old build. I now use Sap Essence, Lotus Fan, Whirlwind, Sparks and Concealed Weapon as my melee dual wield bar. I ended up pulling Mist Form and Invigorating drain out of the bar since I just wasn't killing them fast enough 1 at a time.

I may swap out Sparks for the drain but with the recent nerf, I see little reason to now. Sparks makes melee PvE mobs a joke.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · May 2014

Niminion wrote: »

Five Stages of Loss and Grief

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

I cant lose something I never had in the first place

sucks however for their game that they did this they will just end up nerfing more stuff that aren't vamp related next.

well I feel for you... since sorcerer and dk are likely next on their list because either they will buff nb either they will nerf everything in the game that does to much dps or feel to effective to their taste. The way they dealth with vampirism I think it will be the second options.

Nerfing the right things? Makes to much sense we must do the total reverse!

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO · May 2014

The thing is you can spam meteor and Dragon knight standard if you hit 12 players... I've gotten 2 standards up in PvE all the time.

The problem is not ult reduction cost but that ultimate gives you ultimate.

Noth · May 2014

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is you can spam meteor and Dragon knight standard if you hit 12 players... I've gotten 2 standards up in PvE all the time.

The problem is not ult reduction cost but that ultimate gives you ultimate.

And they are going to fix that as the cap is supposed to be 6, unless otherwise stated. Neither of those abilities state a limit, thus should only hit 6.

ChairGraveyard · May 2014

Noth wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is you can spam meteor and Dragon knight standard if you hit 12 players... I've gotten 2 standards up in PvE all the time.

The problem is not ult reduction cost but that ultimate gives you ultimate.

And they are going to fix that as the cap is supposed to be 6, unless otherwise stated. Neither of those abilities state a limit, thus should only hit 6.

Except AoE caps just make it so the exploiting happens via stacking - hardly a good fix.

Stacking allows the group to ignore all AoE damage, since it hits only 6 random targets, it's super easy to heal through.

Many many MMOs have tried AoE caps and it just devolves into stacking exploiters against eachother - one of the most boring, stupid things imaginable.

And Bat Swarm has been capped since the game went live.

Noth · May 2014

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Noth wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is you can spam meteor and Dragon knight standard if you hit 12 players... I've gotten 2 standards up in PvE all the time.

The problem is not ult reduction cost but that ultimate gives you ultimate.

And they are going to fix that as the cap is supposed to be 6, unless otherwise stated. Neither of those abilities state a limit, thus should only hit 6.

Except AoE caps just make it so the exploiting happens via stacking - hardly a good fix.

Stacking allows the group to ignore all AoE damage, since it hits only 6 random targets, it's super easy to heal through.

Many many MMOs have tried AoE caps and it just devolves into stacking exploiters against eachother - one of the most boring, stupid things imaginable.

And Bat Swarm has been capped since the game went live.

If you don't cap AoEs all you get is AoE spam. Uncapped, or capped just leads to a different outcome. I also wouldn't call AoE stacking an exploit, as you also get that without caps.

BTW, the aoe heals also only cap at 6 unless stated otherwise,, thus you have both being capped and thus both having to hit random targets.