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Anybody try Empower+Shock HA+Sergeants+Storm Master on a non- OakenSorc build?

f047ys3v3n
f047ys3v3n
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So, it's pretty clear that Heavy attack + Sergeant's Mail + Storm Master + a shock staff + Empower is out performing anything else out there. The last 7 or 8 raids I have been on the #1 parse has been one of these in I believe all but one case where a DK using the last meta barely edged it out in a totally stack and whack fight. I also get how easy it is to put together with oaken soul on a sorc. Thing is, I don't think there is anything special about the sorc part at all and as for the ring, I'm convinced it makes you crazy tanky and makes it easy to do. I'm just not convinced it is the top way to eat that empowered cheese. I think maybe people just haven't realized that the secret sauce doesn't require it.

Bear with me. I have mained a sorc the last few years since I basically gave up on chasing the meta in favor of getting really good at doing one really versatile ranged build with acceptable dps. As I see it, sorc special sauce, what makes them generally good and worth playing, basically boils down to: Passive damage from tormenter equivalent to an active dot, frags procs, curse buffing atro+tormenter+scamp though sucking itself so it's only a smidge over a wash and probably under with matriarch, and crit surge being a good buff / hot. For this, you give up having really any really good class DOT's, a class spamable, or a first tier execute. I play it, so I think it's a worth trade off, for the frags, tormentor, and crit surge. I actually leave curse and scamp on the table (for shame.) Most OakenSorcs are leaving even more on the table. They don't use frags, have the other twilight morph leaving that on the table, and leave surge off for lack of room. Is a +5% passive damage buff with the "energized" passive really the win here? I know scamp isn't, that things damage is pathetic. That passive was never even good enough to get us to go shock over fire stave on the front bar before. I have to say, I get how easy OakenSorc is. My build is far less complex than the nightmare that was the last hybrid DOT management meta build but the OakenSorc does make my build look remarkably complex. Most of the OakenSorcs I have seen might cast 3 skills and some only 2 skills. I see top end players running these builds though. Dudes are not having issues managing a few bars and DOT timers. Even if you have all short duration DOTs, you have room for 4-5 of them in a rotation without loosing a single of the massively OP, buffed to the moon, empowered, 2x set buffed heavy. Is it really not worth while to have those 4-5 DOTs?

What I am wondering is.... Wouldn't it be substantially higher dps to pair the ubber OP, Empowered, and doubble set bonus buffed heavy shock attacks with a few DOTs than pairing them with almost nothing? In fact, wouldn't it be the highest DPS in game history? It's not like DOT's have a small damage multiplier relative to spamables or re-casting wall as if it was one right now. DOT's have one of the better multipliers they have had in the last 5-6 years.

Specifically, On a one bar Oaken Build, would you get more pairing 4x - 5x strong DOT's on a DK with that magnificent standard ulti and the OP Empowered 2x set buffed heavies than you do basically just getting a 5% Sorc passive?

When it comes to 2 bar builds, there are less choices. Most Empower sources are shorter duration than the ability that bears them such as the mages guild rune or entropy or are just attached to non- DOT or all together non-damage abilities. There is an exception though and it's a winner. Templar's Solar Barrage is a strong 20sec DOT with a full duration Empower. A two bar build constructed with that could take advantage of a different mythic or even a monster set. Sure, aside from Oaken, none of the other mythics are really that strong anymore. Mora's is OK though and Zaan and StormFist are OK monster sets. None of these make a build but all three are as strong as a typical 5pc bonus. That's an extra 5pc bonus. At the very least, on a fully buffed on a parse dummy wouldn't a templar build doing this be the top parser?

Anybody tried these things? Just wondering. I really don't expect to abandon what I am doing though who knows, ZOS did set the DPS check way to high on vRG HM and I would like to check that box.
I am mostly pleased with the current state of ESO. Please do continue to ban cheaters though and you guys have to find out who is duping gold and how because the economy is currently non-functional.
  • Soarora
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    There are HA builds for every class. I think Sorc has taken over because it’s easy and both dpses and heals. Dk and templar both have empower skills and my understanding is that Bastian also buffs HAs still (the unique ha buff that dks had before empower). Could also possibly get someone else to do empowering grasp or the empower aoe set. I don’t think juggling mages guild skills is worth it, but maybe.
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
  • Neoauspex
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    I run it on a Necro, dot passive is stronger than sorc passives and HA times up perfectly with blast bones. Sorc probably outperforms on a dummy due to free pet damage but it's probably pretty close, and blast bones is AoE.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    (Obviously it's affordable in terms of resource expenditure.)

    What is canceling what?
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on 21 March 2023 15:14
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Sorc advantages include:
    • +5% to shock damage
    • +0-9% to all damage (reverse execute)
    • Good healing/shielding skills
    • +2% to spell power per sorcerer skill slotted (I can have a full 6 of those if I'm nervous about healing)
  • Billium813
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    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    I could be completely wrong. But it feels like HA channeling has a built in animation cancel... or rather, that the animation time doesn't count against the HA channel duration as long as there is only 1 skill queued.

    Weaving 1 skill between each HA seems to me to be the best strategy. When you activate a skill during HA channel, you do NOT interrupt the HA channel. Instead, you "queue" the skill to be executed at the end of the HA. If you maintain holding RMB, then the next HA seems like it may be beginning immediately, DURING the animation of the queued skill.

    I could be completely wrong. Maybe it depends on connection speeds and latency. It's hard to know for certain when you get down into these tight timings. But my best results are with 1 skill between each HA and most of the time it feels like the next HA is "rushed" so to speak. It gets so "rushed" that after like 100 HAs, the animations glitch out and both queued Skill and HA are executed instantly before returning to normal. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has experienced this.
    Edited by Billium813 on 21 March 2023 16:42
  • MudcrabAttack
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    It really depends on the DOT skill whether it’s worth adding to a single bar. Something like barbed trap will add a good chunk of hemorrhage status effect damage (around 2-3% of the fight total) + 2% passive weapon damage buff, + DOT (~3% of a fight total) + up-front direct damage (1%). Skills like soul trap aren’t adding much to a one bar build, they may represent 4-5% of damage during a long fight as most dots do, but passive damage buffs (skills that deal free damage for you) are hard to pass up

    When I use the heavy attack build on my nightblade it’s locked into mediocre single target damage and decent AOE damage.

    Concealed Weapon passively adds 10% to damage when standing inside twisting path, which is very hard to beat with any DOT skill.

    Merciless resolve passively adds 300 weapon damage when you aren’t using the bow proc, on top of adding 2% crit rating+ hemorrhage passive 10% crit damage. It’s hard to time the cast of the assassins will without resetting the merciless resolve timer while performing a heavy attack, so I just leave it as a passive buff most of the time and save the bow proc for the last mob standing

    This leaves just 3 other slots, so the way I use a nightblade heavy attack build involves mostly unstable wall of elements spam since it deals a big AOE direct damage hit when recast early, and re-applying twisting path and barbed trap when they run out. The other skills are passive buffs that outperform active damage over time skills

    Killers blade isn’t as good to slot since heavy attacks slow down the pace by a lot, and a nightblade typically wants to spam killers blade as fast as possible during execute phase. I think the devs balanced nightblade around the potency of killers blade/impale, so they’re left out in last place for a heavy attack build when it comes to single target dps
    Edited by MudcrabAttack on 21 March 2023 17:12
  • FrancisCrawford
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    It really depends on the DOT skill whether it’s worth adding to a single bar. Something like barbed trap will add a good chunk of hemorrhage status effect damage (around 2-3% of the fight total) + 2% passive weapon damage buff, + DOT (~3% of a fight total) + up-front direct damage (1%). Skills like soul trap aren’t adding much to a one bar build, they may represent 4-5% of damage during a long fight as most dots do, but passive damage buffs (skills that deal free damage for you) are hard to pass up

    When I use the heavy attack build on my nightblade it’s locked into mediocre single target damage and decent AOE damage.

    Concealed Weapon passively adds 10% to damage when standing inside twisting path, which is very hard to beat with any DOT skill.

    Merciless resolve passively adds 300 weapon damage when you aren’t using the bow proc, on top of adding 2% crit rating+ hemorrhage passive 10% crit damage. It’s hard to time the cast of the assassins will without resetting the merciless resolve timer while performing a heavy attack, so I just leave it as a passive buff most of the time and save the bow proc for the last mob standing

    This leaves just 3 other slots, so the way I use a nightblade heavy attack build involves mostly unstable wall of elements spam since it deals a big AOE direct damage hit when recast early, and re-applying twisting path and barbed trap when they run out. The other skills are passive buffs that outperform active damage over time skills

    Killers blade isn’t as good to slot since heavy attacks slow down the pace by a lot, and a nightblade typically wants to spam killers blade as fast as possible during execute phase. I think the devs balanced nightblade around the potency of killers blade/impale, so they’re left out in last place for a heavy attack build when it comes to single target dps

    Wait a moment. (I'm saying that a lot.)

    How does the Concealed Weapon/Twisting Path combo work? Reading the tooltips would suggesting that Twisting Path's Major Expedition buff rarely ends and so the Concealed Weapon damage bonus is rarely triggered by it.

    What's really going on?
  • KlauthWarthog
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    Wait a moment. (I'm saying that a lot.)

    How does the Concealed Weapon/Twisting Path combo work? Reading the tooltips would suggesting that Twisting Path's Major Expedition buff rarely ends and so the Concealed Weapon damage bonus is rarely triggered by it.

    What's really going on?

    The Major Expedition buff gets reapplied every second while inside the path, which technically ends the buff to start a new instance, thus refreshing the damage bonus from Concealed Weapon.

    edit: some additional details
    Edited by KlauthWarthog on 21 March 2023 18:38
  • Auldwulfe
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    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    So, it's pretty clear that Heavy attack + Sergeant's Mail + Storm Master + a shock staff + Empower is out performing anything else out there. The last 7 or 8 raids I have been on the #1 parse has been one of these in I believe all but one case where a DK using the last meta barely edged it out in a totally stack and whack fight. I also get how easy it is to put together with oaken soul on a sorc. Thing is, I don't think there is anything special about the sorc part at all and as for the ring, I'm convinced it makes you crazy tanky and makes it easy to do. I'm just not convinced it is the top way to eat that empowered cheese. I think maybe people just haven't realized that the secret sauce doesn't require it.

    Bear with me. I have mained a sorc the last few years since I basically gave up on chasing the meta in favor of getting really good at doing one really versatile ranged build with acceptable dps. As I see it, sorc special sauce, what makes them generally good and worth playing, basically boils down to: Passive damage from tormenter equivalent to an active dot, frags procs, curse buffing atro+tormenter+scamp though sucking itself so it's only a smidge over a wash and probably under with matriarch, and crit surge being a good buff / hot. For this, you give up having really any really good class DOT's, a class spamable, or a first tier execute. I play it, so I think it's a worth trade off, for the frags, tormentor, and crit surge. I actually leave curse and scamp on the table (for shame.) Most OakenSorcs are leaving even more on the table. They don't use frags, have the other twilight morph leaving that on the table, and leave surge off for lack of room. Is a +5% passive damage buff with the "energized" passive really the win here? I know scamp isn't, that things damage is pathetic. That passive was never even good enough to get us to go shock over fire stave on the front bar before. I have to say, I get how easy OakenSorc is. My build is far less complex than the nightmare that was the last hybrid DOT management meta build but the OakenSorc does make my build look remarkably complex. Most of the OakenSorcs I have seen might cast 3 skills and some only 2 skills. I see top end players running these builds though. Dudes are not having issues managing a few bars and DOT timers. Even if you have all short duration DOTs, you have room for 4-5 of them in a rotation without loosing a single of the massively OP, buffed to the moon, empowered, 2x set buffed heavy. Is it really not worth while to have those 4-5 DOTs?

    What I am wondering is.... Wouldn't it be substantially higher dps to pair the ubber OP, Empowered, and doubble set bonus buffed heavy shock attacks with a few DOTs than pairing them with almost nothing? In fact, wouldn't it be the highest DPS in game history? It's not like DOT's have a small damage multiplier relative to spamables or re-casting wall as if it was one right now. DOT's have one of the better multipliers they have had in the last 5-6 years.

    Specifically, On a one bar Oaken Build, would you get more pairing 4x - 5x strong DOT's on a DK with that magnificent standard ulti and the OP Empowered 2x set buffed heavies than you do basically just getting a 5% Sorc passive?

    When it comes to 2 bar builds, there are less choices. Most Empower sources are shorter duration than the ability that bears them such as the mages guild rune or entropy or are just attached to non- DOT or all together non-damage abilities. There is an exception though and it's a winner. Templar's Solar Barrage is a strong 20sec DOT with a full duration Empower. A two bar build constructed with that could take advantage of a different mythic or even a monster set. Sure, aside from Oaken, none of the other mythics are really that strong anymore. Mora's is OK though and Zaan and StormFist are OK monster sets. None of these make a build but all three are as strong as a typical 5pc bonus. That's an extra 5pc bonus. At the very least, on a fully buffed on a parse dummy wouldn't a templar build doing this be the top parser?

    Anybody tried these things? Just wondering. I really don't expect to abandon what I am doing though who knows, ZOS did set the DPS check way to high on vRG HM and I would like to check that box.

    I posted several builds, without the ring, on the other forums.....
    Easy ways to get Empower - Queen's Elegance from Auridon ... or any skill from the mage skill line, which triggers the passive.

    I use the one that improves crit, just by being slotted, and use Sergeant's mail as my jewelry, and weapon, with Slime Craw and all Light Order's Wrath -- my only skills are critical surge, the mage guild one, and both pets with Daedric Prey....

    And, I have put it on both bars with identical staves, to prove the point, and with less buttons, as you only need the surge every 33 seconds, I matched the Oakensoul build in every area that is complained about -- ease of play, few buttons, using lightning HA, and so on.... Oakensoul is one tool.... but Imperial with Undaunted passives already makes you a tank...

    Use the right food buffs, or potions, and you won't even notice no ring... plus you can swap bars, and not care, so all that other nonsense gets tossed. And leaning into crit, with crit surge actually heals me, pretty much, EVERY second.. for a sizeable amount... making it so much easier than Oakensoul to stay alive.....

    Auldwulfe

  • Billium813
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    It really depends on the DOT skill whether it’s worth adding to a single bar. Something like barbed trap will add a good chunk of hemorrhage status effect damage (around 2-3% of the fight total) + 2% passive weapon damage buff, + DOT (~3% of a fight total) + up-front direct damage (1%). Skills like soul trap aren’t adding much to a one bar build, they may represent 4-5% of damage during a long fight as most dots do, but passive damage buffs (skills that deal free damage for you) are hard to pass up

    When I use the heavy attack build on my nightblade it’s locked into mediocre single target damage and decent AOE damage.

    Concealed Weapon passively adds 10% to damage when standing inside twisting path, which is very hard to beat with any DOT skill.

    Merciless resolve passively adds 300 weapon damage when you aren’t using the bow proc, on top of adding 2% crit rating+ hemorrhage passive 10% crit damage. It’s hard to time the cast of the assassins will without resetting the merciless resolve timer while performing a heavy attack, so I just leave it as a passive buff most of the time and save the bow proc for the last mob standing

    This leaves just 3 other slots, so the way I use a nightblade heavy attack build involves mostly unstable wall of elements spam since it deals a big AOE direct damage hit when recast early, and re-applying twisting path and barbed trap when they run out. The other skills are passive buffs that outperform active damage over time skills

    Killers blade isn’t as good to slot since heavy attacks slow down the pace by a lot, and a nightblade typically wants to spam killers blade as fast as possible during execute phase. I think the devs balanced nightblade around the potency of killers blade/impale, so they’re left out in last place for a heavy attack build when it comes to single target dps

    Wait a moment. (I'm saying that a lot.)

    How does the Concealed Weapon/Twisting Path combo work? Reading the tooltips would suggesting that Twisting Path's Major Expedition buff rarely ends and so the Concealed Weapon damage bonus is rarely triggered by it.

    What's really going on?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/627208/a-concealed-weapon-nerf-not-written-in-the-patch-note-unintentional-or-intentional
  • SirLeeMinion
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    I could be completely wrong. But it feels like HA channeling has a built in animation cancel... or rather, that the animation time doesn't count against the HA channel duration as long as there is only 1 skill queued.
    Back when U35 first dropped, I spent some time playing with heavy attack builds. One thing I checked was the number of heavy attacks that registered when I just held down the mouse button vs holding down the mouse button and queuing a skill. What I found then, and just re-verified, is that in a given minute, I get more heavy attacks in if I don't queue a skill.

    For example: in 1:01 minutes, I landed* 78 heavy attacks only. Adding elemental blockade by queuing it as the heavy attack channeled I landed 70 heavy attacks in 1:02 minutes. So, it seems to me that the skill does actually add a bit of time between the heavy channels. Check me on this, ofc.

    All this to say, that it seems to me that the queued skill isn't free so far as time is concerned. Thus, you have to evaluate whether the minimal additional time to cast the DoT is worth more than the heavy attacks you lose. Throw in some ping, accidentally re-casting because your bar didn't swap, and a mobile boss, and it may not really be worth it to manage all the dots on a back bar. This is especially true because, if you are going to run two bars, you'll likely do more damage running a meta build.

    *edit: "landed" means the hits recorded by Bandit's and so includes all hits in the channel
    ** changed "about more" to "more", ty for pointing that out!
    Edited by SirLeeMinion on 21 March 2023 20:34
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    I could be completely wrong. But it feels like HA channeling has a built in animation cancel... or rather, that the animation time doesn't count against the HA channel duration as long as there is only 1 skill queued.
    Back when U35 first dropped, I spent some time playing with heavy attack builds. One thing I checked was the number of heavy attacks that registered when I just held down the mouse button vs holding down the mouse button and queuing a skill. What I found then, and just re-verified, is that in a given minute, I get about more heavy attacks in if I don't queue a skill.

    For example: in 1:01 minutes, I landed 78 heavy attacks only. Adding elemental blockade by queuing it as the heavy attack channeled I landed 70 heavy attacks in 1:02 minutes. So, it seems to me that the skill does actually add a bit of time between the heavy channels. Check me on this, ofc.

    All this to say, that it seems to me that the queued skill isn't free so far as time is concerned. Thus, you have to evaluate whether the minimal additional time to cast the DoT is worth more than the heavy attacks you lose. Throw in some ping, accidentally re-casting because your bar didn't swap, and a mobile boss, and it may not really be worth it to manage all the dots on a back bar. This is especially true because, if you are going to run two bars, you'll likely do more damage running a meta build.

    Thanks, @SirLeeMinion ! I presume "about more" is a typo ... but for what? :)

    Also -- just what are you counting at less than a second per heavy attack with a destruction staff? The line for the channeled part of a lightning heavy attack? If so, is this on tests where the line for the big boom part of the heavy attack has almost precisely half as many hits as the the line for the channeled attacks?
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on 21 March 2023 20:37
  • SirLeeMinion
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    I could be completely wrong. But it feels like HA channeling has a built in animation cancel... or rather, that the animation time doesn't count against the HA channel duration as long as there is only 1 skill queued.
    Back when U35 first dropped, I spent some time playing with heavy attack builds. One thing I checked was the number of heavy attacks that registered when I just held down the mouse button vs holding down the mouse button and queuing a skill. What I found then, and just re-verified, is that in a given minute, I get about more heavy attacks in if I don't queue a skill.

    For example: in 1:01 minutes, I landed 78 heavy attacks only. Adding elemental blockade by queuing it as the heavy attack channeled I landed 70 heavy attacks in 1:02 minutes. So, it seems to me that the skill does actually add a bit of time between the heavy channels. Check me on this, ofc.

    All this to say, that it seems to me that the queued skill isn't free so far as time is concerned. Thus, you have to evaluate whether the minimal additional time to cast the DoT is worth more than the heavy attacks you lose. Throw in some ping, accidentally re-casting because your bar didn't swap, and a mobile boss, and it may not really be worth it to manage all the dots on a back bar. This is especially true because, if you are going to run two bars, you'll likely do more damage running a meta build.

    Thanks, @SirLeeMinion ! I presume "about more" is a typo ... but for what? :)

    I had initially typed "about 10% more" but then realized it likely varied with the skill cast.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    @SirLeeMinion -- I was editing my post right above while you were editing yours. :)

    I use Combat Metrics, where the first two hits of the channel and the third hit get separate rows in the output table. I don't know whether the same is true in your app.
  • Billium813
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    I could be completely wrong. But it feels like HA channeling has a built in animation cancel... or rather, that the animation time doesn't count against the HA channel duration as long as there is only 1 skill queued.
    Back when U35 first dropped, I spent some time playing with heavy attack builds. One thing I checked was the number of heavy attacks that registered when I just held down the mouse button vs holding down the mouse button and queuing a skill. What I found then, and just re-verified, is that in a given minute, I get more heavy attacks in if I don't queue a skill.

    For example: in 1:01 minutes, I landed* 78 heavy attacks only. Adding elemental blockade by queuing it as the heavy attack channeled I landed 70 heavy attacks in 1:02 minutes. So, it seems to me that the skill does actually add a bit of time between the heavy channels. Check me on this, ofc.

    All this to say, that it seems to me that the queued skill isn't free so far as time is concerned. Thus, you have to evaluate whether the minimal additional time to cast the DoT is worth more than the heavy attacks you lose. Throw in some ping, accidentally re-casting because your bar didn't swap, and a mobile boss, and it may not really be worth it to manage all the dots on a back bar. This is especially true because, if you are going to run two bars, you'll likely do more damage running a meta build.

    *edit: "landed" means the hits recorded by Bandit's and so includes all hits in the channel
    ** changed "about more" to "more", ty for pointing that out!

    It may be dependent on the specific skill, but perhaps I'm wrong. I haven't really tested this timing before, but I went back over some of my saved combats and 78 HA per minute sounds about right. In all my HA testing, I am seeing ~26 final HAs per minute and ~52 channel hits per minute from Lightning Staff.

    Channels:
    ( 1157 hits / 1343 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 51.69 hits / minute
    ( 469 hits / 544 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 51.73 hits / minute
    ( 453 hits / 524 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 51.87 hits / minute

    Final Hits:
    ( 579 hits / 1343 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 25.87 hits / minute
    ( 235 hits / 544 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 25.92 hits / minute
    ( 226 hits / 524 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 25.88 hits / minute

    I tested a bit weaving Blastbones (I'm not perfect, but I queued Blastbones on every other HA)

    Channels:
    ( 336 hits / 412 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 48.93 hits / minute
    ( 333 hits / 409 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 48.85 hits / minute

    Final Hits:
    ( 168 hits / 412 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 24.47 hits / minute
    ( 166 hits / 544 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 24.35 hits / minute

    There is a noticeable drop, but I swear that the animation looks sped up for me. After BlastBones is done animating, the damage numbers from both channel hits feel like they are really close together and almost imperceptibly the same as without a skill. But it might just be a GUI thing and not real.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Billium813 wrote: »
    Wait a moment -- weaving skills between heavy attacks is "free" in terms of time expended?

    I could be completely wrong. But it feels like HA channeling has a built in animation cancel... or rather, that the animation time doesn't count against the HA channel duration as long as there is only 1 skill queued.
    Back when U35 first dropped, I spent some time playing with heavy attack builds. One thing I checked was the number of heavy attacks that registered when I just held down the mouse button vs holding down the mouse button and queuing a skill. What I found then, and just re-verified, is that in a given minute, I get more heavy attacks in if I don't queue a skill.

    For example: in 1:01 minutes, I landed* 78 heavy attacks only. Adding elemental blockade by queuing it as the heavy attack channeled I landed 70 heavy attacks in 1:02 minutes. So, it seems to me that the skill does actually add a bit of time between the heavy channels. Check me on this, ofc.

    All this to say, that it seems to me that the queued skill isn't free so far as time is concerned. Thus, you have to evaluate whether the minimal additional time to cast the DoT is worth more than the heavy attacks you lose. Throw in some ping, accidentally re-casting because your bar didn't swap, and a mobile boss, and it may not really be worth it to manage all the dots on a back bar. This is especially true because, if you are going to run two bars, you'll likely do more damage running a meta build.

    *edit: "landed" means the hits recorded by Bandit's and so includes all hits in the channel
    ** changed "about more" to "more", ty for pointing that out!

    It may be dependent on the specific skill, but perhaps I'm wrong. I haven't really tested this timing before, but I went back over some of my saved combats and 78 HA per minute sounds about right. In all my HA testing, I am seeing ~26 final HAs per minute and ~52 channel hits per minute from Lightning Staff.

    Channels:
    ( 1157 hits / 1343 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 51.69 hits / minute
    ( 469 hits / 544 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 51.73 hits / minute
    ( 453 hits / 524 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 51.87 hits / minute

    Final Hits:
    ( 579 hits / 1343 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 25.87 hits / minute
    ( 235 hits / 544 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 25.92 hits / minute
    ( 226 hits / 524 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 25.88 hits / minute

    I tested a bit weaving Blastbones (I'm not perfect, but I queued Blastbones on every other HA)

    Channels:
    ( 336 hits / 412 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 48.93 hits / minute
    ( 333 hits / 409 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 48.85 hits / minute

    Final Hits:
    ( 168 hits / 412 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 24.47 hits / minute
    ( 166 hits / 544 seconds ) * 60 seconds = 24.35 hits / minute

    There is a noticeable drop, but I swear that the animation looks sped up for me. After BlastBones is done animating, the damage numbers from both channel hits feel like they are really close together and almost imperceptibly the same as without a skill. But it might just be a GUI thing and not real.

    Those numbers certainly suggest cancellation working. You seem to have dropped by fewer than 2 full heavy attacks/minute, which is to say ~4 seconds of heavy attacking.

    You actually launched -- what? ~10 Blastbones/minute? ~8? ~12? Whatever it was, you weren't really consuming that many standard GCDs to do so.

    Absent any cancellation speedup, a skill has to contribute ~45% of the damage of a full heavy attack to be a wash from a damage standpoint. That's unlikely for most non-ultimates. But if 10 skills only "cost" 2 heavy attacks, for example, the bar becomes lower.

    And of course, straight damage may not be the only consideration. Catrops or necro Boneyard can give AoE Major Breach. Boneyard and Wall of Elements have different AoE geometry than the lightning HA cleave. The sorc Unstable Familiar's special ability stuns trash mobs. Many skills give you small passive boosts just for sitting on your bar. Etc.
  • fred4
    fred4
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    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?

    Edited by FrancisCrawford on 22 March 2023 18:47
  • WinterHeart626
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    I did it on my Khajit NB, hit less than sorc, still higher than my light weave oaken though, which is higher than my dual bar.
    Might be running it wrong, but hey, more damage is more damage.
    To be fair the procs from sergeants mail should be spaced so other heavy attacks can reach the same levels as lightning staff, other than that, the HA builds in an ok spot. It’s certainly not “god mode”, not unless you’re focussing on what’s going on around you and not standing in red.
  • fred4
    fred4
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    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?
    It was pretty unscientific. I didn't do full parses, which is always suspect when you're wearing Bloodthirsty. I did reset the dummies frequently, though. I had Solar Barrage on the templar a few times, but may have had Hurricane on the sorc. Yes, mostly just heavy attacks. No ultimates, no full rotation.

    My main objective was comparing lightning and resto staves and get a feel for how much Burning Light contributes. I think the templar was a bit weaker, but not by much. I didn't bother matching CP and resource pools. A very unscientific test come to think of it.

    That said, the thing I wanted to draw attention to is Burning Light, e.g. that sorc isn't the only class to bring passive damage to any build.
    Edited by fred4 on 22 March 2023 22:45
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    fred4 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?
    My main objective was comparing lightning and resto staves

    I stopped testing Resto staves for damage since Resto has been nerfed (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615168/additional-combat-changes-for-update-35/p1). ZOS doesn't like knowing that Resto staves can do as much damage as other staves (which is understandable IMO). If it ever pops up again in damage, maybe thanks to some set interactions, I suspect itll be quickly nerfed again.
    Edited by Billium813 on 23 March 2023 17:07
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?
    My main objective was comparing lightning and resto staves

    I stopped testing Resto staves for damage since Resto has been nerfed (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615168/additional-combat-changes-for-update-35/p1). ZOS doesn't like knowing that Resto staves can do as much damage as other staves (which is understandable IMO). If it ever pops up again in damage, maybe thanks to some set interactions, I suspect itll be quickly nerfed again.

    the main difference between resto and lightning destro is the lightning destro has the cleave from tri-focus, where as resto is fully single target

    while resto is likely going to be lower than lightning even in a single target scenario, its also likely to be still better than most other weapons heavy attacks due to the multiple hits getting boosted
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?
    My main objective was comparing lightning and resto staves

    I stopped testing Resto staves for damage since Resto has been nerfed (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615168/additional-combat-changes-for-update-35/p1). ZOS doesn't like knowing that Resto staves can do as much damage as other staves (which is understandable IMO). If it ever pops up again in damage, maybe thanks to some set interactions, I suspect itll be quickly nerfed again.

    the main difference between resto and lightning destro is the lightning destro has the cleave from tri-focus, where as resto is fully single target

    while resto is likely going to be lower than lightning even in a single target scenario, its also likely to be still better than most other weapons heavy attacks due to the multiple hits getting boosted

    ----Heavy Attacks + Champion Points----

    Restoration Staff
    n5jv6y5govs5.png

    Ice Staff
    w64sh0o1zjj5.png

    Inferno Staff
    btvc4avy2kga.png

    Lightning Staff
    8njhdz7jyqxd.png

    ----Heavy Attacks + Sergeant's Mail + Champion Points----

    Ice Staff
    g5px1qmp8r2d.png

    Inferno Staff
    f3ibmcvdp13e.png

    Restoration Staff
    w3yn6cvrv81x.png

    Lightning Staff
    ykwip0eyhgnr.png

    Yep. Restoration staff is basically the worst DPS in single target damage. But once it gets boosted, thanks to that channel, it becomes even better than Inferno at single target damage.

    What is the conclusion from this?
    1. Restoration staff deals too much damage?
    2. Inferno staff doesn't deal enough damage?
    3. HA boosting sets unfairly boost HA channel damage?
    4. Lightning staff does too much single target damage?

    I feel like 2, 3, & 4 are probably correct. I feel like Inferno should be hitting harder than Lightning on single target damage and it feels a bit unfair for a generic HA set to boost the unique channel HA on Lightning and Restoration more than any other HA weapon in the game. But if you just stop at 1 and say "oh, it must be Restoration Staff", then the HA damage is just nerfed more and nothing is really solved.
    Edited by Billium813 on 23 March 2023 19:19
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Billium813 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?
    My main objective was comparing lightning and resto staves

    I stopped testing Resto staves for damage since Resto has been nerfed (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615168/additional-combat-changes-for-update-35/p1). ZOS doesn't like knowing that Resto staves can do as much damage as other staves (which is understandable IMO). If it ever pops up again in damage, maybe thanks to some set interactions, I suspect itll be quickly nerfed again.

    the main difference between resto and lightning destro is the lightning destro has the cleave from tri-focus, where as resto is fully single target

    while resto is likely going to be lower than lightning even in a single target scenario, its also likely to be still better than most other weapons heavy attacks due to the multiple hits getting boosted

    ----Heavy Attacks + Champion Points----

    Restoration Staff
    n5jv6y5govs5.png

    Ice Staff
    w64sh0o1zjj5.png

    Inferno Staff
    btvc4avy2kga.png

    Lightning Staff
    8njhdz7jyqxd.png

    ----Heavy Attacks + Sergeant's Mail + Champion Points----

    Ice Staff
    g5px1qmp8r2d.png

    Inferno Staff
    f3ibmcvdp13e.png

    Restoration Staff
    w3yn6cvrv81x.png

    Lightning Staff
    ykwip0eyhgnr.png

    Yep. Restoration staff is basically the worst DPS in single target damage. But once it gets boosted, thanks to that channel, it becomes even better than Inferno at single target damage.

    What is the conclusion from this?
    1. Restoration staff deals too much damage?
    2. Inferno staff doesn't deal enough damage?
    3. HA boosting sets unfairly boost HA channel damage?
    4. Lightning staff does too much single target damage?

    I feel like 2, 3, & 4 are probably correct. I feel like Inferno should be hitting harder than Lightning on single target damage and it feels a bit unfair for a generic HA set to boost the unique channel HA on Lightning and Restoration more than any other HA weapon in the game. But if you just stop at 1 and say "oh, it must be Restoration Staff", then the HA damage is just nerfed more and nothing is really solved.

    i feel like the biggest difference between the heavies is the channel (your point 3)

    the only 2 heavy attacks that have channeled ticks are lightning and resto, so they immediately become better once you add heavy attack sets + empower because HA sets add their dmg on every channeled tick in addition to the final burst

    so in your list i think point 3 is the biggest point of difference between lighitning/resto and the rest of the weapons

    i also see your only testing staves, would it not also be a fair comparison to include the stam setups too (duel wield, 1h/shield, 2h, bow)

    duel wield technically does 2 hits on a heavy, which both would get buffed by HA sets and empower (though each individual hit is much weaker than a single hit, so i dont know how it would compare, and 2h melee technically also has cleave dmg like lightning, but only 1 single dmg hit thats getting buffed
    Edited by Necrotech_Master on 23 March 2023 19:30
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Billium813 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    In my brief testing on a RAID dummy, my Oakenplar and Oakensorc were neck and neck. Both classes have damage buffs that apply. Sorc's have already been mentioned. Templar has +10% crit damage, Minor Sorcery, and Burning Light now procs from all damage. I can't speak to whether a pet sorc with Daedric Prey would be stronger as I tested without that.

    I presume from the way you phrased that that you tested without weaving skills?
    My main objective was comparing lightning and resto staves

    I stopped testing Resto staves for damage since Resto has been nerfed (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615168/additional-combat-changes-for-update-35/p1). ZOS doesn't like knowing that Resto staves can do as much damage as other staves (which is understandable IMO). If it ever pops up again in damage, maybe thanks to some set interactions, I suspect itll be quickly nerfed again.

    the main difference between resto and lightning destro is the lightning destro has the cleave from tri-focus, where as resto is fully single target

    while resto is likely going to be lower than lightning even in a single target scenario, its also likely to be still better than most other weapons heavy attacks due to the multiple hits getting boosted

    ----Heavy Attacks + Champion Points----

    Restoration Staff
    n5jv6y5govs5.png

    Ice Staff
    w64sh0o1zjj5.png

    Inferno Staff
    btvc4avy2kga.png

    Lightning Staff
    8njhdz7jyqxd.png

    ----Heavy Attacks + Sergeant's Mail + Champion Points----

    Ice Staff
    g5px1qmp8r2d.png

    Inferno Staff
    f3ibmcvdp13e.png

    Restoration Staff
    w3yn6cvrv81x.png

    Lightning Staff
    ykwip0eyhgnr.png

    Yep. Restoration staff is basically the worst DPS in single target damage. But once it gets boosted, thanks to that channel, it becomes even better than Inferno at single target damage.

    What is the conclusion from this?
    1. Restoration staff deals too much damage?
    2. Inferno staff doesn't deal enough damage?
    3. HA boosting sets unfairly boost HA channel damage?
    4. Lightning staff does too much single target damage?

    I feel like 2, 3, & 4 are probably correct. I feel like Inferno should be hitting harder than Lightning on single target damage and it feels a bit unfair for a generic HA set to boost the unique channel HA on Lightning and Restoration more than any other HA weapon in the game. But if you just stop at 1 and say "oh, it must be Restoration Staff", then the HA damage is just nerfed more and nothing is really solved.

    i feel like the biggest difference between the heavies is the channel (your point 3)

    the only 2 heavy attacks that have channeled ticks are lightning and resto, so they immediately become better once you add heavy attack sets + empower because HA sets add their dmg on every channeled tick in addition to the final burst

    so in your list i think point 3 is the biggest point of difference between lighitning/resto and the rest of the weapons

    i also see your only testing staves, would it not also be a fair comparison to include the stam setups too (duel wield, 1h/shield, 2h, bow)

    duel wield technically does 2 hits on a heavy, which both would get buffed by HA sets and empower (though each individual hit is much weaker than a single hit, so i dont know how it would compare, and 2h melee technically also has cleave dmg like lightning, but only 1 single dmg hit thats getting buffed

    Ya, I have the other stamina weapons (except sword&shield), but I didn't want to overload my post... I have bows in comparison here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks, but have been trying to limit the discussion just to keep the comparisons as simple as possible. There definitely seems to be a disconnect between melee range vs range attacks on HA damage with melee weapons being far lower compared to staves and bows at base damage.

    ----Heavy Attacks + Champion Points----

    Dual Wield
    qwa509oncvxh.png

    Two Handed
    b6q2d2eqshmu.png

    Bow (Long Range)
    4zyeou263slu.png

    Dual wield HA is far below even Restoration Staff, 2H is lower than Inferno Staff but higher than Ice Staff, and Bow is the highest single target DPS, even more than Lightning Staff! However, once boosted sets are introduced it all changes.

    ----Heavy Attacks + Sergeant's Mail + Champion Points----

    Two Handed
    hgmb2fx5gon5.png

    Bow (Long Range)
    qzte7wdmslyl.png

    Dual Wield
    gpmzzl41z9yp.png

    You are correct that Dual Wield gets more benefit from being boosted when compared to other Physical Weapons. I wouldn't mind if only the primary hand got the HA set bonus for these HA sets, if there would be a change for channels to not receive a boost as well; just to keep things as even as possible.
  • Necrotech_Master
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    seems to be about what i thought, simply adding more "hits" per heavy attack is a significant game changer with empower + HA sets at least in terms of the single target comparison

    when your talking say the aoe potential of the heavy attacks, lightning is miles ahead due to the tri-focus cleave, then i would say 2h melee is next best due to the passive it gets for splash dmg on light/heavy attacks, with all of the others not even registering because they have no aoe potential
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Billium813
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    when your talking say the aoe potential of the heavy attacks, lightning is miles ahead due to the tri-focus cleave, then i would say 2h melee is next best due to the passive it gets for splash dmg on light/heavy attacks, with all of the others not even registering because they have no aoe potential

    Seems correct in my interpretations.

    I think at this point, my biggest issues are
    1. At base, I think Lightning Staff is doing more damage than it should. It's the highest DPS, single target staff AND it gets a an AOE cleave (not to mention the concussed/off balance bonuses). I would like to see Inferno Staff buffed substantially, making it much more comparable to Bow. Then, maybe have Lightning Staff lessened a bit to be more comparable to Ice Staff. Alternatively, maybe the channel shouldn't cleave too? There's a number of things that could be done.
    2. For boosting HA damage sets, it feels like the spirit of generic HA sets implies they should be more equal across weapon choices. My whole start of this investigation was in how HA builds atm lack any weapon diversity and the stamina variants underperform. It isn't just the Tri-Focus cleave from Lightning Staff either; the single target still makes it the absolute winning choice. I think removing HA sets boosting of Off Hand and channels, IOW only applying buffs to the final hits, would help even out the options. To achieve similar DPS, I wouldn't mind raising the buff damage up more

    I would like to see Inferno Staff being single best DPS staff for single target damage, with the weakness being no AOE. Lightning Staff being the second best single target, perhaps be a good margin, with the upside being AOE damage. And Ice Staff being perhaps even less damage, but more defensive (as it already is).
    Edited by Billium813 on 23 March 2023 20:58
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    when your talking say the aoe potential of the heavy attacks, lightning is miles ahead due to the tri-focus cleave, then i would say 2h melee is next best due to the passive it gets for splash dmg on light/heavy attacks, with all of the others not even registering because they have no aoe potential

    Seems correct in my interpretations.

    I think at this point, my biggest issues are
    1. At base, I think Lightning Staff is doing more damage than it should. It's the highest DPS, single target staff AND it gets a an AOE cleave (not to mention the concussed/off balance bonuses). I would like to see Inferno Staff buffed substantially, making it much more comparable to Bow. Then, maybe have Lightning Staff lessened a bit to be more comparable to Ice Staff. Alternatively, maybe the channel shouldn't cleave too? There's a number of things that could be done.
    2. For boosting HA damage sets, it feels like the spirit of generic HA sets implies they should be more equal across weapon choices. My whole start of this investigation was in how HA builds atm lack any weapon diversity and the stamina variants underperform. It isn't just the Tri-Focus cleave from Lightning Staff either; the single target still makes it the absolute winning choice. I think removing HA sets boosting of Off Hand and channels, IOW only applying buffs to the final hits, would help even out the options. To achieve similar DPS, I wouldn't mind raising the buff damage up more

    I would like to see Inferno Staff being single best DPS staff for single target damage, with the weakness being no AOE. Lightning Staff being the second best single target, perhaps be a good margin, with the upside being AOE damage. And Ice Staff being perhaps even less damage, but more defensive (as it already is).

    i thought that during either u35/36 (dont remember exactly which one) empower was actually changed to affect the channel ticks because it initially did not affect the channel ticks at all, only the final hit, which ironically was probably better for balance had they not done that lol

    the HA sets buffing the channel ticks also further change the bar too, im not sure if removing the extra bonus from say the duel wield would make much of a difference, since the individual hits are still less than say a single 2h hit, and that one doesnt have the cleave like lightning staff, so its still more for single target which i think is fine

    however i think if you removed both the empower + HA sets from buffing the channel ticks, im not sure how low on the scale lightning would fall, or if it would even be useable for a HA build outside of the access to cleave dmg (an advantage it still holds on all other HA save for the 2h technically)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    when your talking say the aoe potential of the heavy attacks, lightning is miles ahead due to the tri-focus cleave, then i would say 2h melee is next best due to the passive it gets for splash dmg on light/heavy attacks, with all of the others not even registering because they have no aoe potential

    Seems correct in my interpretations.

    I think at this point, my biggest issues are
    1. At base, I think Lightning Staff is doing more damage than it should. It's the highest DPS, single target staff AND it gets a an AOE cleave (not to mention the concussed/off balance bonuses). I would like to see Inferno Staff buffed substantially, making it much more comparable to Bow. Then, maybe have Lightning Staff lessened a bit to be more comparable to Ice Staff. Alternatively, maybe the channel shouldn't cleave too? There's a number of things that could be done.
    2. For boosting HA damage sets, it feels like the spirit of generic HA sets implies they should be more equal across weapon choices. My whole start of this investigation was in how HA builds atm lack any weapon diversity and the stamina variants underperform. It isn't just the Tri-Focus cleave from Lightning Staff either; the single target still makes it the absolute winning choice. I think removing HA sets boosting of Off Hand and channels, IOW only applying buffs to the final hits, would help even out the options. To achieve similar DPS, I wouldn't mind raising the buff damage up more

    I would like to see Inferno Staff being single best DPS staff for single target damage, with the weakness being no AOE. Lightning Staff being the second best single target, perhaps be a good margin, with the upside being AOE damage. And Ice Staff being perhaps even less damage, but more defensive (as it already is).

    i thought that during either u35/36 (dont remember exactly which one) empower was actually changed to affect the channel ticks because it initially did not affect the channel ticks at all, only the final hit, which ironically was probably better for balance had they not done that lol

    You know, it's interesting you say that. I have some HA + Oakensoul tests just because I wanted to see how 100% Empower is affecting HA. I know there are other buffs from Oakensoul muddying the water... but I was pretty surprised by the results.

    ----Heavy Attacks + Oakensoul + Champion Points----

    Bow
    mwdzmuc9k7f4.png

    Inferno Staff
    3uhtqcpeqlnx.png
    *there seemed to be some bug in cmx and I couldn't get the Oakensoul buffs to show...

    Lightning Staff
    6yp0kjkvx3tp.png

    If you look at the Lightning Staff, it seems surprising to me that the Final Hit/Channel split is still 60/40! Also, Bow still seems to come out on top with Oakensoul. I would have thought that the Channel damage would swap similar to HA boosting sets for 100% Empower uptime and that Lightning Staff would take way more advantage of Empower.

    I think the issue may be with Medium attacks... See, the game has no way of knowing if the player will cancel the Full Charged HA before it reaches the Full Charge. For most HAs, that isn't an issue since they jsut have the 1 big hit, but with Lightning and Restoration staves, that's a real problem. The game needs to apply Empower to the channel damage before it ever even knows if the HA will be Fully Charged! Having Empower buff the channel for non-Fully Charged HAs would, IMO, seem like a bug. I wonder if the +80% damage is instead spread over the entire Lightning Staff HA (2x Channel hits + 1x Final Hit). It's difficult to math though cause Oakensoul is the easiest way to get 100% Empower, but there are all those other buffs in the way. If so though, that would mean Oakensoul would be buffing Lightning Staff medium attacks by a lot more than it should.

    I think I'll test with Weapons Expert slottable on/off just to see how the +20% HA damage applies. It might be the same mechanism *shrug*
    Billium813 wrote: »
    when your talking say the aoe potential of the heavy attacks, lightning is miles ahead due to the tri-focus cleave, then i would say 2h melee is next best due to the passive it gets for splash dmg on light/heavy attacks, with all of the others not even registering because they have no aoe potential

    Seems correct in my interpretations.

    I think at this point, my biggest issues are
    1. At base, I think Lightning Staff is doing more damage than it should. It's the highest DPS, single target staff AND it gets a an AOE cleave (not to mention the concussed/off balance bonuses). I would like to see Inferno Staff buffed substantially, making it much more comparable to Bow. Then, maybe have Lightning Staff lessened a bit to be more comparable to Ice Staff. Alternatively, maybe the channel shouldn't cleave too? There's a number of things that could be done.
    2. For boosting HA damage sets, it feels like the spirit of generic HA sets implies they should be more equal across weapon choices. My whole start of this investigation was in how HA builds atm lack any weapon diversity and the stamina variants underperform. It isn't just the Tri-Focus cleave from Lightning Staff either; the single target still makes it the absolute winning choice. I think removing HA sets boosting of Off Hand and channels, IOW only applying buffs to the final hits, would help even out the options. To achieve similar DPS, I wouldn't mind raising the buff damage up more

    I would like to see Inferno Staff being single best DPS staff for single target damage, with the weakness being no AOE. Lightning Staff being the second best single target, perhaps be a good margin, with the upside being AOE damage. And Ice Staff being perhaps even less damage, but more defensive (as it already is).

    however i think if you removed both the empower + HA sets from buffing the channel ticks, im not sure how low on the scale lightning would fall, or if it would even be useable for a HA build outside of the access to cleave dmg (an advantage it still holds on all other HA save for the 2h technically)

    I think it really might just be the HA sets and not Empower... but either way, I would be fine with buffing the HA set bonuses to raise the DPS back up to adequate levels. My whole point from this is really that I want to see more diversity in HA builds and not just all Lightning Staves. I want players to spec Stamina and run Bow 1bar HA if they really want and not be constrained to a single weapon that is abusing a set more than others based on a technicality. Removing the channel would negatively impact Lightning Staves, but then the HA sets could receive a larger damage buff to the final hit so that all HA weapons can benefit from the buff. I don't want to destroy HA builds, I just want there to be more options and for Destruction Staves to be more open in choice.
    Edited by Billium813 on 23 March 2023 22:53
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    honestly its a little bit of both the HA sets + empower

    the HA sets are adding base dmg to the HA, instead of having a separate proc of dmg, so these are also getting buffed by empower (which buffs the HA)

    so you have an attack thats say 1000 dmg

    your set is adding 500 dmg to that, then its calculating empower, so instead of it doing +80% of 1000, its doing +80% of 1500 (assuming no crits, which is further multipliers before empower)

    so the HA set + empower in this scenario is bringing it to 2700 dmg
    if the empower did not count the HA set (due to it being like a proc), it would be 2300

    i know these numbers are small and its just an example, but when your multiplying that by 3 for the lighting attack, it adds up (since the HA set bonus is a fixed amount, you might as well be adding +80% on to that having empower regardless of it being the channel or final tick)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
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