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Templar jabs

  • everseeing_njpreub18_ESO
    My main (and only) is a Templar and i for what i do (solo/overland) i haven't noticed any issues, maybe harder content is more apparent. Really i barely notice any animation change, I'm not that focused on it.

    With no insulting intended, I am surprised at how many posts there are about people dropping their Templars ONLY because they cant stand the animation. I can only imagine there are other reasons and this was the "last straw", otherwise to me it seems silly.
  • SilverBride
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    I recently rolled a Templar after the changes so I don't have anything to compare it with, but I don't see what the problem is. What is bad about the new animation?
    PCNA
  • Grega
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    My main (and only) is a Templar and i for what i do (solo/overland) i haven't noticed any issues, maybe harder content is more apparent. Really i barely notice any animation change, I'm not that focused on it.

    With no insulting intended, I am surprised at how many posts there are about people dropping their Templars ONLY because they cant stand the animation. I can only imagine there are other reasons and this was the "last straw", otherwise to me it seems silly.

    Yea, overland /solo is no issues. Especially since u33, with character getting buffed at creation, even if everything gets additionally nerfed by 80% overland/solo will still be ok and not noticeable.

    It’s a combination for most people. Animation change with end game ceiling nerf. If you don’t look at animation, character and don’t weave, then I can see how no one would be bothered.
  • Grega
    Grega
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    I recently rolled a Templar after the changes so I don't have anything to compare it with, but I don't see what the problem is. What is bad about the new animation?

    If you YouTube the animation from 2021- you can look and compare if you like.

    Tbh, it’s different for different players.

    For RP players, it’s role destructive because Templars are light fighters but they recycled nighthollow staff for this animation, making it “dark” fighter from lore/RP perspective.

    For min max - ers it’s weave perspective, is you have to relearn it - and it’s always been a bit buggy even more so now

    From visual aesthetics - many just simply liked old one more. Again, it’s hard to not like something if you don’t know it’s predecessors, but loudest in this are the ones who have been playing Templar almost exclusively from beginning (myself included)

    This last one is subjective. Meaning there’s no right or wrong, but at this point it’s more about statistics. Numbers wise, there is many more “old” templars than “new” Templars, currently. Hence voices around how good it was before is loud and clear.

  • SilverBride
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    @Grega Thank you for the explanation.
    PCNA
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    My main (and only) is a Templar and i for what i do (solo/overland) i haven't noticed any issues, maybe harder content is more apparent. Really i barely notice any animation change, I'm not that focused on it.

    With no insulting intended, I am surprised at how many posts there are about people dropping their Templars ONLY because they cant stand the animation. I can only imagine there are other reasons and this was the "last straw", otherwise to me it seems silly.

    Aesthetics are everything for some, including me. And old habits die hard.

    I, for one, cannot tolerate the idiotic look of what was once my iconic skill, not to mention how badly it clashes with the rest of the kit in appearance. Add that to the insane nerfs, and it's become intolerable to play. It may seem silly to you, but it's deadly serious to those like me, gamewise.
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • Vrienda
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    I haven't noticed any change myself. Playing Templar as my off-main. (Trying to catch her up to my DK so I have options).
    Desperate for Roleplaying servers to bring open world non-organised RP to Elder Scrolls Online. Please ZOS.
  • maxjapank
    maxjapank
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    I really tried to give the new animation a go. I thought, “Just give it time, you’ll get used to it.” But after a couple of months, I just couldn’t. It looks so silly and feels so clunky. And it saddens me to no end. I’ve played a Templar for over 8 years. And when you love how a class feels in your hands, it’s hard to see it what it looks like now.

    I still play two Templars. One is my usual healer for a guild pvp group. And she is exceptionally strong. I don’t use jabs on her anyways. But I used to do a lot of content and even solo pvp with jabs, and that’s gone now. My other Templar has become a rangeplar. It’s not un-fun to play. But it’s not exceptionally powerful for pvp or pve, and I feel like a sorcerer, so I wonder why I just don’t play a Sorcerer.

    I think that all classes should be able to do all content. But classes should feel different. And Templar just doesn’t feel like a Templar to me without Jabs. And this new animation doesn’t work for Jabs, at least for me.
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    maxjapank wrote: »
    I really tried to give the new animation a go. I thought, “Just give it time, you’ll get used to it.” But after a couple of months, I just couldn’t. It looks so silly and feels so clunky. And it saddens me to no end. I’ve played a Templar for over 8 years. And when you love how a class feels in your hands, it’s hard to see it what it looks like now.

    I still play two Templars. One is my usual healer for a guild pvp group. And she is exceptionally strong. I don’t use jabs on her anyways. But I used to do a lot of content and even solo pvp with jabs, and that’s gone now. My other Templar has become a rangeplar. It’s not un-fun to play. But it’s not exceptionally powerful for pvp or pve, and I feel like a sorcerer, so I wonder why I just don’t play a Sorcerer.

    I think that all classes should be able to do all content. But classes should feel different. And Templar just doesn’t feel like a Templar to me without Jabs. And this new animation doesn’t work for Jabs, at least for me.

    Well put.
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • Blackbird_V
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    As someone who's had a Magplar main since I started playing, I will chime in as well. Not only is the new animation horrible to see, use and get used to, but there's a massive damage loss as well.

    The old jabs did 4 hits. It now does 3. That's 1 less hit, so that equates to less damage. You can say it allows us to use more light attacks, but erm..... yeah nerfed, but I guess somewhat buffed this new PTS cycle? Then you need to consider the Burning light passive. Whenever you deal damage with an Aedric spear ability, you gain a stack for 3 seconds. At 4 stacks, Burning light procs and deals damage. Basically, 1 use of old spear = 4 hits + Burning light. Now 1 use of spear = 3 hits.

    Lets put it into persepctive:
    Old jabs:
    • 1 Jab (4 hits) = 1 Burning light proc
    • 2 Jabs B2B (8 hits) = 2 Burning light procs
    • 3 Jabs B2B2B (12 hits) = 3 Burning light procs
    • 4 Jabs B2B2B2B (16 hits) = 4 Burning light procs

    New jabs
    • 1 Jab (3 hits) = 0.75 Burning light proc
    • 2 Jabs B2B (6 hits) = 1.5 Burning light procs
    • 3 Jabs B2B2B (9 hits) = 2.25 Burning light procs
    • 4 Jabs B2B2B2B (12 hits) = 3 Burning light procs

    You get an extra Burning light proc with the old jabs per hit (4) in comparison with the new. Over time in a Raid, that does add up. Of course blazing spear helps with proccing it, but nevertheless it's still a nerf.

    Now, some may say we can get an extra light attack off and with 3 hits since the channel time was reduced from 1 second to 800ms. If that's the case, then over time if you're not careful or experienced you may run into resource management issues with your Magicka or Stamina.

    Edit: Lets not forget in U35 ZoS nerfed the damage of this ability by 21%.

    Edit 2: Extension here: Reply #57 (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7807839/#Comment_7807839)
    Edited by Blackbird_V on 5 February 2023 18:24
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • rpa
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    Considering some animations like the mining and wood chopping got bugged for a while, I would not be surprised if change was a bug turned to a feature. I tend to play one char at time and my current one is not affected. Except if I bother to switch for the "kill with weapon abilities" endeavor. The whatwasitcalled dual wield ability does look like an animation bug to me.
    Edited by rpa on 5 February 2023 03:48
  • BloodyStigmata
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    Grega wrote: »
    I recently rolled a Templar after the changes so I don't have anything to compare it with, but I don't see what the problem is. What is bad about the new animation?

    From visual aesthetics - many just simply liked old one more. Again, it’s hard to not like something if you don’t know it’s predecessors, but loudest in this are the ones who have been playing Templar almost exclusively from beginning (myself included)

    To add onto this, you really had to have used old jabs to appreciate the "impact" the skill had. It was really satisfying to use--had weight to it and felt like you were just digging into your opponent. The old burning light passive just gave it an extra kick in the damage department too.

    Now it just feels floaty and flimsy and doesn't have much oomph to it.
    Owner and proprietor of the Northern Elsweyr Guar Reserve and The Hunting Grounds Guar Reserve, Tamriel's home to all things guar.
    See the embedded brochures for all information regarding our reserves, as well as our collection status!
  • shadyjane62
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    I used to fight with a shard of lightning. Now I have a shovel.

    I've been holding on hoping for a reversion, but my sub is up in April. Can't see spending another penny on this game after the butchering of Templars. It's not just the Jabs animation although that a large part of it.

    The entire class was nerfed.
  • Shihp00
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    i remember only playing templar for 2 straight years, wrecking anyone in no cp and only dying to zergs. Still getting the same results with new jabs :D I do keep up with the changes tho :p
  • xthrshx
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    Whether you personally like the look of something or not is a matter of subjective opinion. But there are also objective rules of aesthetics and best practices in animation. There is also such a thing as fidelity to real-world body mechanics and weapon techniques. It’s a non-debatable fact that the new jabs animation abjectly fails by these metrics. The spear is not held correctly. It is not thrust correctly. It is not animated fluidly nor does it produce impact by variation in in/out speed. It’s not simply stylized or fantastical; it’s like if swords were animated so you slapped enemies with the broad side—it’s just literally wrong.
  • LukosCreyden
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    Grega wrote: »
    Gargath wrote: »
    Recently my stamplar became my main, most efficient class, works great with jabs. Can't see anything wrong with this skill or it's animation.

    Because it is recent for you so you don’t know how it was.
    The rest of 99% Templar players who have been maining it nearly a decade have huge issues with recycled asset animation along with not being dmg min max competitive anymore (magplar still is due to beamplar, but stamplar is once gain unwanted/subpar in hardest content).

    You COULD say that stamplar is...


    subpLar? Eh?
    Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.
  • Ariordin
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    ...With no insulting intended, I am surprised at how many posts there are about people dropping their Templars ONLY because they cant stand the animation. I can only imagine there are other reasons and this was the "last straw", otherwise to me it seems silly.

    The class skills in ESO, while not completely usually share a visual style or color pallet. There are individual skills that for its purpose break this... but for Templars the shining white/gold color pallet of its skills was its hallmark. You know its a templar because of this glow. I think a lot of people really loved how the skills of templar look even when its not always the best class to play as. It just FEELS good and honorable to play as compared to any of the other classes. And a fantasy game needs this even if its abit cliché. So while the jabs animation wasn't the prettiest animation in the game it fit the templars and this need perfectly. The insult was taking this shining gold honorableness and replacing it with a black colored Necromancer staff as a spear... it was a huge insult to the reason the class is so popular. Its an ugly albatross compared to the other templar skill animations.

  • WrathOfInnos
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    Grega wrote: »
    Gargath wrote: »
    Recently my stamplar became my main, most efficient class, works great with jabs. Can't see anything wrong with this skill or it's animation.

    Because it is recent for you so you don’t know how it was.
    The rest of 99% Templar players who have been maining it nearly a decade have huge issues with recycled asset animation along with not being dmg min max competitive anymore (magplar still is due to beamplar, but stamplar is once gain unwanted/subpar in hardest content).

    I have to disagree on that last statement. Currently working on Swashbuckler on my stamplar after doing it on magplar a couple times. I'll say that magplar is much easier to play with shard spam, but stamplar has some benefits as well, including better jabs (for cleave on multiple bosses/adds), better armor (5 medium to hit crit damage cap and gain more weapon damage), and better sets (the class is hard carried by Azureblight). Jabs could certainly use a buff, so that it would be viable outside of certain set combinations, but it should not go back to the old desynced animation where you were free to cast other things while the character continued to jab for half a second. The new timing feels good to weave, even if the animation is inferior.

    It doesn't reach quite the DPS peaks of DK on bosses, but it is better on trash (especially with jabs triggering plaguebreak on multiple enemies). The Ritual synergy helps with Alkosh uptime, and beam helps to burn through difficult execute phases. You definitely still need to use beam on the stamina build, I'd recommend tripots and 2 light armor to sustain it, as well as minimizing casts of other magicka skills after about 40% health.

    If anyone is saying they don't want a stamplar in hard content that is their mistake.
  • Jaraal
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    I wonder why ZOS doesn't do market research before making changes to iconic animations? The vast majority of templars dislike the new vampiric shovel, and most don't care for the floppy, flailing Flurry, either, so how does ZOS create something different and assume it's going to be ok? Is it just a 'it's my game and I'm doing what I want... like it or not' mentality?

    Imagine if automakers just drew something up and one or two guys looked at it and said, "I like it! Let's invest millions of dollars and our company's reputation on it! Who cares what the customers think!" And then sent it to the assembly line. How do you think that would work out? Sure, there are bound to be some brand loyalists that would buy whatever they put out... regardless of how they would look driving it. But why wouldn't a company be looking to maximize customer satisfaction? Why not run your drawings by a few customers in advance, and get their opinion on your new product before dropping it on the dealerships?

    And assuming you went ahead and mass produced your albatross vehicle and cashed all the checks from blind preorders, and then when angry customers lined up at your service department to get their lemons fixed or their down payments refunded, you flip the sign in the window to "Sorry, we're closed. Be back February 30th", and don't even provide coffee for all the people gathered in the waiting room. How long do you think brand loyalty will keep your business afloat?
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Shagreth
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    Seeing how the new vampire mist ability looks and now the jabs -- I'm almost scared to ask for new animations, there's clearly a problem with that department in ZoS, they can do so much better.
  • K9002
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    New jabs
    • 1 Jab (3 hits) = 0.75 Burning light proc
    • 2 Jabs B2B (6 hits) = 1.5 Burning light procs
    • 3 Jabs B2B2B (9 hits) = 2.25 Burning light procs
    • 4 Jabs B2B2B2B (12 hits) = 3 Burning light procs
    WRONG. Burning Light stacks have a cooldown of 500ms. You can't build up more than two stacks in a single global cooldown. You would also have to deal damage exactly every 500ms to proc BL every 2 seconds and I'm pretty sure that the damage ticks of Jabs don't hit the 500ms mark. Jesus Beam also doesn't tick in neat 500ms intervals. Burning Light procs less frequently in reality than it would appear to in its tooltip.
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    xthrshx wrote: »
    Whether you personally like the look of something or not is a matter of subjective opinion. But there are also objective rules of aesthetics and best practices in animation. There is also such a thing as fidelity to real-world body mechanics and weapon techniques. It’s a non-debatable fact that the new jabs animation abjectly fails by these metrics. The spear is not held correctly. It is not thrust correctly. It is not animated fluidly nor does it produce impact by variation in in/out speed. It’s not simply stylized or fantastical; it’s like if swords were animated so you slapped enemies with the broad side—it’s just literally wrong.

    Well said.
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    I wonder why ZOS doesn't do market research before making changes to iconic animations? The vast majority of templars dislike the new vampiric shovel, and most don't care for the floppy, flailing Flurry, either, so how does ZOS create something different and assume it's going to be ok? Is it just a 'it's my game and I'm doing what I want... like it or not' mentality?

    Imagine if automakers just drew something up and one or two guys looked at it and said, "I like it! Let's invest millions of dollars and our company's reputation on it! Who cares what the customers think!" And then sent it to the assembly line. How do you think that would work out? Sure, there are bound to be some brand loyalists that would buy whatever they put out... regardless of how they would look driving it. But why wouldn't a company be looking to maximize customer satisfaction? Why not run your drawings by a few customers in advance, and get their opinion on your new product before dropping it on the dealerships?

    And assuming you went ahead and mass produced your albatross vehicle and cashed all the checks from blind preorders, and then when angry customers lined up at your service department to get their lemons fixed or their down payments refunded, you flip the sign in the window to "Sorry, we're closed. Be back February 30th", and don't even provide coffee for all the people gathered in the waiting room. How long do you think brand loyalty will keep your business afloat?

    This is certainly yet another case of a "my game and I'm doing what I want, like it or not" from the company. One of the most stark instances, actually.
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • Stx
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    ZOS’ obsession with light attacks is what doomed Templar jabs. [snip]

    Their obsession with changing light attacks is not only taking their time away from more important or fun changes to the game, but actively ruining the good parts of their game. And looking at these patch notes it appears they haven’t learned.

    [edited for bashing]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 5 February 2023 17:26
  • gariondavey
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    @ZOS_Kevin is it possible to get a statement or something from a developer on if they are going to be reverting jabs, buffing jabs, or doing nothing?
    The silence on this from developers despite the amount of community outrage/concern is frustrating.

    Also, the same on backlash, if possible.

    Thanks!
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Blackbird_V
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    K9002 wrote: »
    New jabs
    • 1 Jab (3 hits) = 0.75 Burning light proc
    • 2 Jabs B2B (6 hits) = 1.5 Burning light procs
    • 3 Jabs B2B2B (9 hits) = 2.25 Burning light procs
    • 4 Jabs B2B2B2B (12 hits) = 3 Burning light procs
    WRONG. Burning Light stacks have a cooldown of 500ms. You can't build up more than two stacks in a single global cooldown. You would also have to deal damage exactly every 500ms to proc BL every 2 seconds and I'm pretty sure that the damage ticks of Jabs don't hit the 500ms mark. Jesus Beam also doesn't tick in neat 500ms intervals. Burning Light procs less frequently in reality than it would appear to in its tooltip.

    Just re-checked U35.

    Burning Light:
    • This passive now triggers after dealing damage with any attack, rather than only Aedric Spear abilities.
    • Increased the cooldown of stack generation to 500ms, up from 1ms.
    • Reduced the damage of the proc by approximately 33%.

    Puncturing Strikes:
    • This ability and its morphs now hit 3 times over a channel time of 800ms, rather than 4 times over 1 second.
    • Implemented new animations and visual effects to match the attack cadence.
    • Reduced the cost of this ability and the Puncturing Sweeps morph to 2295, down from 2700.
    • Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21% since this ability no longer incurs a DPS loss while weaving within the 1 second global cooldown window.
    • Increased the damage of the Area of Effect hits by approximately 7%.
    • Reduced the duration of the snare to 0.5 seconds per hit, down from 1 second.
    • Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
    • Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
    • Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
    • Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

    So not only did they massively increase stack gen cooldown in U35, they also reduced channel time for Puncturing Strikes from 1s to 800ms. So now 1 ability useage of strikes adds 2 stacks of Burning Light; however, the update also changed Burning Light where a stack is generated whenever you deal damage, rather than solely from Aedric Spear abilities. It's therefore possible to constantly upkeep stacks.

    Still though, before U35 you were outright able to proc 1 Burning Light proc every spear hit. Post U35 = 1 Puncturing Strikes = 2 stacks out of 4 to proc. It seems that it will take 2 game seconds to proc Burning Light if there's constant damage on the boss due to it proccing off any damage, whereas pre-U35 only Aedric Spear abilities procced it, but you were able to get 1 proc off every Puncturing Strike useage, or every 1 second.

    Not sure if this changes anything, but this is from U27:

    Burning Light:
    * Burning Light: This passive has been slightly reworked so that the damage now triggers when you deal damage 4 times within rapid succession to an enemy with an Aedric Spear ability, rather than having a 25% chance to proc per hit. Note that the time window is long enough that abilities that hit at least once every second between will continue to proc this passive.


    Puncturing Strikes:
    * Reduced the tick frequency of this ability and its morphs to 333ms, down from 300ms, to better sync its damage with its animation.


    Edited by Blackbird_V on 5 February 2023 16:57
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • Stx
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    I didn’t even mind the changes to burning light. It was doing a lot of damage for a class passive and it actually gives you more build flexibility now that it procs from all damage.

    My issue and the reason I don’t play Templar anymore is strictly jabs and the changes that have been made over time to remove power from abilities (removing major protection from sweep ultimate, removing healing from ritual of ret etc). The jabs animation was the final straw, it’s really bad.
  • K9002
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    @Blackbird_V
    I know how it used to be for the past 3+ years. The point I'm making is that it's actually much worse than you're saying and it doesn't proc nearly as often.

    You quoted the cooldown from the U35 patch notes. You just don't seem to understand how cooldowns work in a live environment. It means you can trigger the next stack no sooner than after full 500ms, not exactly every 500ms. It discards any damage ticks during full 500ms and waits to register the nearest tick of damage after that time. And it's guaranteed that you won't deal a damage tick exactly the moment cooldown ends. For one, latency works against everyone. Between that, input lag and plain human error, it's impossible to play at full 60 casts per minute. Another factor is that there are no abilities that would deliver their damage ticks exactly every 500ms. You can see the results in any combat logs for Templars. Here's an example, pulled from top 5 groups in Dreadsail Reef:
    https://www.esologs.com/reports/zyZbXwcvq782t6kV#fight=43&type=damage-done&source=10&ability=80170&view=events

    So we went from dealing 100% BL damage on every cast of Jabs to dealing ~67% BL damage every 2.5~3.5s, depending on how well things line up. It's nowhere near your original claim of 3 procs in 4 casts of Jabs. I'm fed up with people like you painting a much more optimistic image of things than what we have to deal with in reality.
  • Blackbird_V
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    K9002 wrote: »
    @Blackbird_V
    I know how it used to be for the past 3+ years. The point I'm making is that it's actually much worse than you're saying and it doesn't proc nearly as often.

    You quoted the cooldown from the U35 patch notes. You just don't seem to understand how cooldowns work in a live environment. It means you can trigger the next stack no sooner than after full 500ms, not exactly every 500ms. It discards any damage ticks during full 500ms and waits to register the nearest tick of damage after that time. And it's guaranteed that you won't deal a damage tick exactly the moment cooldown ends. For one, latency works against everyone. Between that, input lag and plain human error, it's impossible to play at full 60 casts per minute. Another factor is that there are no abilities that would deliver their damage ticks exactly every 500ms. You can see the results in any combat logs for Templars. Here's an example, pulled from top 5 groups in Dreadsail Reef:
    https://www.esologs.com/reports/zyZbXwcvq782t6kV#fight=43&type=damage-done&source=10&ability=80170&view=events

    So we went from dealing 100% BL damage on every cast of Jabs to dealing ~67% BL damage every 2.5~3.5s, depending on how well things line up. It's nowhere near your original claim of 3 procs in 4 casts of Jabs. I'm fed up with people like you painting a much more optimistic image of things than what we have to deal with in reality.

    Ah guess I originally misunderstood you and thought you were saying it wasn't as bad etc.

    But yeah now that's clarified it is a lot worse than it looks. Also I am aware that ticks, latency etc are all factors as well.
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • ProudMary
    ProudMary
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jaraal wrote: »
    I wonder why ZOS doesn't do market research before making changes to iconic animations? The vast majority of templars dislike the new vampiric shovel, and most don't care for the floppy, flailing Flurry, either, so how does ZOS create something different and assume it's going to be ok? Is it just a 'it's my game and I'm doing what I want... like it or not' mentality?

    Imagine if automakers just drew something up and one or two guys looked at it and said, "I like it! Let's invest millions of dollars and our company's reputation on it! Who cares what the customers think!" And then sent it to the assembly line. How do you think that would work out? Sure, there are bound to be some brand loyalists that would buy whatever they put out... regardless of how they would look driving it. But why wouldn't a company be looking to maximize customer satisfaction? Why not run your drawings by a few customers in advance, and get their opinion on your new product before dropping it on the dealerships?

    And assuming you went ahead and mass produced your albatross vehicle and cashed all the checks from blind preorders, and then when angry customers lined up at your service department to get their lemons fixed or their down payments refunded, you flip the sign in the window to "Sorry, we're closed. Be back February 30th", and don't even provide coffee for all the people gathered in the waiting room. How long do you think brand loyalty will keep your business afloat?

    Are you saying ZOS is becoming the Edsel of MMO's? With unasked for and unwanted changes like they made to the jabs animation they certainly are well on their way to being just that.

    [snip]
    [edited for bashing]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on 6 February 2023 18:58
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