Ball of Lightning change is bad

jaws343 · July 2021

TheTruestKing wrote: »

If it must be changed why not something like this.

Transform yourself into pure energy and flash forward. After reaching your location, you become immune to snare in immobilize effects for 2 seconds. A ball of lightning is created at this location as well, which reduces incoming projectile damage by 75% for 3 seconds.
Casting again within 4 seconds cost 33% more magicka. So your projectiles aren't a complete waste but BoL still holds it's power.

If they want to keep the distinct use between the morphs, with Streak being offensive and Bol being defensive, the could do something like this for Bol:

A ball of lightning is created when you reach your location that snares enemies within 5 meters.

Basically, remove the damage mitigation entirely, since 1 projectile is already basically that. And add a snare for enemies who are following. Make it truly an escape tool. Gap closers would still function properly against it and you could still be hit by projectiles, but anyone who is trying to chase otherwise would have a more difficult time doing so.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 2021

Stamsorc can still run the get-in-get-out playstyle without Ball of Lightning—I currently do it on live with a lot of movement speed and Streak. I'm not that tanky, and can certainly get caught of position, but it's incredibly mobile and pretty survivable if you don't get focused down by too many people at once.

TheTruestKing · July 2021

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Stamsorc can still run the get-in-get-out playstyle without Ball of Lightning—I currently do it on live with a lot of movement speed and Streak. I'm not that tanky, and can certainly get caught of position, but it's incredibly mobile and pretty survivable if you don't get focused down by too many people at once.

I tried streak last night and it was mind blowing to see all the snipe deaths. There is no kiting or avoiding it in certain situations. Once the snipe is in air your fate has been sealed. I don't run pariah. I do just find with BoL though. I'm also reiterating that I'm speaking from outnumbered and 1vx perspective as Stam Sorc as many classes are only rewarding in these situations. Compared to say bombing and healbotting mostly rewarding in coordinated large group or zerg play.

Jierdanit · July 2021

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Look at all the Xv1ers on this post. Someone who actually plays Stam sorc outnumbered can you give me some logic why this is a good change. I think people are happy that Xv1 will be easier. If your not a Stam Sorc or you don't understand the class then you should just take a seat. Ball of Lightning has been this way for YEARS. What now all of a sudden makes it broken. Or perhaps is it not broken and the changes prompt people to think it is. When you're fighting small scale or outnumbered or in BG. Ball of Lightning is that skill that allows you to escape multiple people. While on the surface that sounds soooooooo good but yet look at Stam Sorcs kit. No protection no resources on ulti no cleanse no mending vitality. No nothing. Just dark deal and ball of Lightning. Just for the sake of identity alone BOL shouldn't be changed

BoL has been too strong for some time in my opinion.

So much so that you gimped yourself if you picked Streak over it (at least on stamsorc), because the snare removal and projectile absorption just made it so much better, even with streak already being a pretty good skill.

And what makes it broken is that BoL blocks pretty much every ranged skill someone can try to hit you with, except for channels (if it works) and with that also blocks everything the skill wouldve put on you, like DoTs or debuffs.

In a fight with something like a magBlade or a magSorc BoL made it pretty much impossible for them to actually kill you if you used it properly.

Im not really happy with how they chose to nerf it though, cause that mainly nerfs it for 1vX, what really doesnt need more nerfs imo.

I'd like it much better if ZOS made it so that BoL can now absorb 1 skill per enemy per second, so that with someone doing proper light attack weaving with ranged skills you would get hit by either the skill or the light attack, while still blocking the snipes from someone who just stands behind his zerg pressing 1 button over and over.
That way it would make it possible for decent ranged players to actually do something against a stamsorc with BoL, with it still remaining a very good skill to reduce incoming damage when facing multiple ranged enemies.

Merforum · July 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Yup you'll get your wig pushed back as soon as you land. But on another note everyone is forgetting is that it's only projectiles. Endless fury and radiant are severe hard counters. Now BoL will be useless. And that's the point why make it useless? Why nerf it at all? That is where I'm at. Why not push to give everyone an escape.

Because thats not how Zos works. People have been saying what you just said in different contexts for 6+years. All those abilities I mentioned in a previous comment? All those wouldnt necessarily have to be nerfed if every class had equally powerful tools. But they did not have those and Zos did not give them those and instead nerfed the abilities in question (and in quite a few cases overnerfed them or completely changed their function). Could Zos change? Sure, but I dont see it.

TheTruestKing wrote: »

You're on point with all points except spamming my build can't spam BoL and doesn't need to spam dark deal as I have 2356 Stam recovery w rally. Kiting is king. But yeah I make em chase and make em pay. I foresee a lot of Xs being lost due to unseen unreactable snipes and frags. For every skill that can be absorbed there's 3 that can't be. Radiant sweeps endless fury curse shalks blast bones bow ulti meteor power of light purifying light. Think of all the skills that goes past BoL. It's literally a skill designated for snipe frags spec bow. It's so people can't just free cast on someone fighting outnumbered. It's an oh crap escape. But Ive said everything I can I believe. Ultimately it's up to ZoS I just hope they look at both sides.

Everything that you said here and more was said in favor old reflecting wings. You can see how that worked out. And with wings we were talking a cap of 4 projectiles per cast not a cap of 300 projectiles per cast. If you think of that a nerf to ball of lightning was only a matter of time.

Isn't it amazing that after years of people pointing out that BOL was OPaf because it blocked literally everything thrown at sorc, and all the sorcs coming on forums and saying that wasn't true, now ZOS admits that BOL was able to block 100 projectiles per second. So now we know it was OP all along. These changes seem OK cuz it is still massive escape tool but less infinite mitigation, although a better change might be to allow it to have 75% damage reduction for 2 seconds and a 3 second cooldown, they could even increase range at that point.

But streak is more OP than BOL IMO. That's the one that should be fixed by reducing range to 8mtrs and/or 3 sec cooldown and/or change stun to lesser CC effect and/or limit # player it can stun/CC.

Shade and cloak are also still OP. Shade should be LOS only and 15 mtr range and/or have a cast time on the teleport. Cloak is broken because people can use it in the middle of a fight and position behind player to get all benefit of sneak attack which should only be allowed at beginning of fight. Way to fix cloak is put 3 second cooldown while in combat and/or cast time and/or disable while in melee range.

DrSlaughtr · July 2021

I'm fascinated that anyone thinks any skill should be able to negate all range damage while also granting snare and immobilization immunity.

1 per second may sound unfair and maybe it is. But BOL as is puts wings and slab to shame. So bringing them closer to one another is a good idea.

Even as is it's still going to be a great escape tool. During those 3 seconds you can hit your other defenses and heals to counter any hits that come through.

But look at it this way. You would need at least 2 people shooting within .5 seconds of one another to take any damage. How often does that happen when you're streaking away? Even if you have 5 bow builds sniping you you'll still negate most of those unless they time them.

And honestly if you have 5 bow blades on mic ordering coordinated snipes, you should die.

Thrain · July 2021

TheTruestKing wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

But to address why should all the other skills be nerfed and not BoL. This is easy because BoL is an escape and should be only be compared to shade. Was shade nerfed? As far as I know it's the best defensive ability depending on how you use it. Nb and sorc are the squishiest classes by nature. These escapes were put into the class to allow glass cannon in and out playstyle. The trade off is they don't always guarantee a getaway. These builds are usually used outnumbered 1vx. Hence the need for escape.

This part is just blatantly false btw. If BoL is nothing but an escape then you shouldnt mind loosing 100 projectile absorbs a second, the escape part is completely untouched. You also might have noticed that shade does not absorb 100 projectiles a second and still is a good escape.

Not that I am saying Bol isn't currently overtuned, but Shade immediately lets you avoid all incoming damage by putting you at a previously chosen location. Bol, without a reliable attack absorbtion just allows the user to be killed by all of the incoming projectiles before they are out of range. At least Streak stuns.

Bol was definitely overnerfed and the spell absoprtion portion of the skill is entirely useless if it goes live like this.

Yup you'll get your wig pushed back as soon as you land. But on another note everyone is forgetting is that it's only projectiles. Endless fury and radiant are severe hard counters. Now BoL will be useless. And that's the point why make it useless? Why nerf it at all? That is where I'm at. Why not push to give everyone an escape.

because "class identity"
whats the point in having different classes when every class would have the same toolkit?
i agree that this nerf is hits pretty hard but on the other hand
this playstile as it is now shouldnt exist.
you can counter other defensive skills like cloak or shade with no problem (even with a potion)
but as magblade/magsorc as example you cant counter bol, except waiting for your enemy to stop spaming it, and thats the point
there shouldnt be a skill that completely shuts down other classes

also since stamsorc is the fastest class anyways even with streak you shouldnt have any problem in 1vsx with los
and btw you can dodgerole during streak so...

Adernath · July 2021

Lol what a ridiculous nerf to an ability which was the defensive alternative to the more offensive (and more used!) streak. This really shows that ZoS devs seem only to play against sorcs in PvP, not playing sorcs themselves.

Otherwise they would know that it was broken already before: If you run immediately after BoL, no ball would appear. This unreliable behaviour made it inferior to its other morph.

universal_wrath · July 2021

master_vanargand wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The problem with 1 projectile each second is that half of the stuff you fire (light attack + skill) gets through even if you fight 1v1. Against multiple enemies 50% of the attacks get through from the first person but from the second person 100% of the attacks come through.

Maybe a change that reduces the dmg of incoming projectile would be more fair, with the current PTS changes the effect of Ball of Lightning is basically cancelled if you get attacked by more than 1 player.

Remember that there is Duel in PvP for this game.
If more than 1, Ranged Builds can't kill Sorc forever.

It could be chamged to be per target. You take bol of lightning out and was is left is the squishest class in the game. No block mitigation bonuses, no healing bonuses, no damage reduction bonuses. The only way for stam sorc to mitigate damage is by ball of lightning absorbing projectile and making distance from melee. Melee players now can easily catch up to sorcerers, and next patch range will also be as deadly.

This change was done because the skill apperantly protects allies too, you can change this and make it for the caster only and decrease number of projectile from 100 to 10, or make it absorb every .25 or .5 instead of 1.0 secs. Duals is a small part of PvP, and to cripple a while class because it is strong in duals while it is getting stump on in other contents of PvP is not good. Streak is already the go to morph for most sorcerers, this change will just delete ball of lighting.

universal_wrath · July 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

God forbid Stam Sorc or any other class have a strong ability. I guess I look at things differently than others. Like everyone wants tether nerfed but I want Crit res on armor buffed. Instead of bringing everyone down to my level I'd rather be buffed. Everyone has an opinion. All I can say is if you mainly play large group and are not a Stam Sorc and do not play it at the highest tier then your opinion is a cloud without water and has no value here. Not to me at least. No one cares how you and your 17 friends couldn't kill the one Stam sorc you were chasing across the map. Can someone give a good reason this should be nerfed. I can't think of one.

I dont think that you are actually looking for a reason but here I go anyway:
Best mobility spell in the game is at the same time the best ranged defensive ability in the game. Does that sound balanced?
Other ranged defensive abilities got nerfed hard, why should this one remain at the level others got nerfed down from?

Personally I´d also prefer if all strong abilities were left intact. Old wings, old cinderstorm, old FoO/sea of flames, old shards, blinding flashes, 3 target breath of life without los requirement, no casttime incap, stun on frags etc. you get the idea. But that ship has sailed long ago and Zos modus operandi is not to buff other classes but instead nerf everything. If wings were buffed to absorb 100 projectiles a second I wouldnt mind ball of lightning being able to do the same but Im sure you notice how overpowered it sounds to let dk wings absorb 100 projectiles per second.

You call it balance when you give the class something in return. The only reason stam sorc is able to survive is by running away, because it does not have qny passive the support its healing, defense, or mobility, unlike other classes. You don't see a stamsorc brawling like warden or necromancers, because they can't survive like them. Btw, stamblade is somewhat same as stamsorc, no bonus healing or defense, still claok is working wanders. Best thing they did to claok is dot going throught, but what if can't apply any because blade spam claok, but ball of lighting apperantly is broken.

universal_wrath · July 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm fascinated that anyone thinks any skill should be able to negate all range damage while also granting snare and immobilization immunity.

1 per second may sound unfair and maybe it is. But BOL as is puts wings and slab to shame. So bringing them closer to one another is a good idea.

Even as is it's still going to be a great escape tool. During those 3 seconds you can hit your other defenses and heals to counter any hits that come through.

But look at it this way. You would need at least 2 people shooting within .5 seconds of one another to take any damage. How often does that happen when you're streaking away? Even if you have 5 bow builds sniping you you'll still negate most of those unless they time them.

And honestly if you have 5 bow blades on mic ordering coordinated snipes, you should die.

You only need one person attacking you to kill you after this change. Every player can do LA+skill in 1 sec, meaning you can either negate the LA or the skill what ever comes first, usually LA. Having 2 players attacking you meaning you will only block 1 attack per sec and recieve 3, during the 3 sec duration, you have negated 3 attacks but recieved 6 attacks that if you are fighting 2 players. Most likely you will die wither it is 1 person attacking you or 2 or even more if that matters at this point.

If it goes live, I don't see why would anyone would still want to use, snare immunity will be negiligable and everyone better off using streak and some forum of snare removal skill or even use snow trader. 'M currenlt using snow trader, I never realize how good it is until I used it, I just increased my movement speed to compensate for the fact I can't sptrint in fights.

universal_wrath · July 2021

Adernath wrote: »

Lol what a ridiculous nerf to an ability which was the defensive alternative to the more offensive (and more used!) streak. This really shows that ZoS devs seem only to play against sorcs in PvP, not playing sorcs themselves.

Otherwise they would know that it was broken already before: If you run immediately after BoL, no ball would appear. This unreliable behaviour made it inferior to its other morph.

I think this is a bug and should be report. bugs and lags shouldn't be a reason to nerf or buff something.

Sanguinor2 · July 2021

universal_wrath wrote: »

You call it balance when you give the class something in return. The only reason stam sorc is able to survive is by running away, because it does not have qny passive the support its healing, defense, or mobility, unlike other classes. You don't see a stamsorc brawling like warden or necromancers, because they can't survive like them. Btw, stamblade is somewhat same as stamsorc, no bonus healing or defense, still claok is working wanders. Best thing they did to claok is dot going throught, but what if can't apply any because blade spam claok, but ball of lighting apperantly is broken.

That may be how you define balance but this is not how Zos balances and hasnt been how Zos balances since 6+years. The point of the nerf was to get rid of ball of lightnings power not to shift it around into other skills or passives.
I´ll ask you what I asked the OP: Does one ability absorbing 300 projectiles per cast sound fine when another ability was butchered because it reflected 4 abilities per cast? And why does the arguably best mobility spell in the game also need to double as the most effective ranged defense as well and be better at ranged defense than an ability that provides nothing but ranged defense?

Comparing any class to warden and necromancer makes them come up short in terms of brawling potential so yeah. Certainly not ideal but I unfortunately dont see that changing anytime soon.

Fried_Fowl · August 2021

Thank You ZOS for correcting Ball of Lightning, Can you please correct Streak as well? even if its just Stunning only 1 Target per Cast? or something with it affecting your Recoveries? or Higher Cost then it has now? Thanks!

YandereGirlfriend · August 2021

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Thank You ZOS for correcting Ball of Lightning, Can you please correct Streak as well? even if its just Stunning only 1 Target per Cast? or something with it affecting your Recoveries? or Higher Cost then it has now? Thanks!

Nice try, but no.

DonGodJoe · August 2021

A truly interest idea, like i dont play with BoL and it also annoys me seeing balls absorbing everything im using against the enemy BUT since there is possibility to DO THIS to BoL ..
Why the hell isnt THIS change applied to dodge roll? One ability/attack dodged PER ROLL, with the amount of roll dodge cost decrease, traits, this would be an actual perfect change, no more perma dodging everything with roll spams in a row.. And to make it affecting only in PvP by applying it to battle spirit.

universal_wrath · August 2021

DonGodJoe wrote: »

A truly interest idea, like i dont play with BoL and it also annoys me seeing balls absorbing everything im using against the enemy BUT since there is possibility to DO THIS to BoL ..
Why the hell isnt THIS change applied to dodge roll? One ability/attack dodged PER ROLL, with the amount of roll dodge cost decrease, traits, this would be an actual perfect change, no more perma dodging everything with roll spams in a row.. And to make it affecting only in PvP by applying it to battle spirit.

If this would happen, people would start blocking more and dodge less, since dodging would ineffective way to mitigate damage just like the BoL PTS change. Nerf to roll will make tank meta only viable opt, I would rather not see that.

JoSePHRiNG · August 2021

Ball of Lightning, in my opinion really got it harsh with this nerf.

Was it needed? Yes. But was it also over-nerfed? Also yes.

Streak is used mostly because that is how MagSorc players play their games and Streak helps with that gameplay.

Ball of Lightning is used by StamSorc because that is how they play.

Ball of Lightning did not deserve this nerf but I agree it needed some changes.

Just make it "Absorb projectiles that target Player." now and let's test it again if it still feels OP.

Also, I don't usually PVP so take the comment for what it's worth.

robpr · August 2021

Zos not gonna yeld. We had similar discussion like that when they clipped DK wings - very expensive ability that reflected up to 6 projectiles, and Snipe spammers and magsorcs were complaining that "it kills their playstyle".
Time for Warden's Shimmering now?

DrSlaughtr · August 2021

universal_wrath wrote: »

You only need one person attacking you to kill you after this change. Every player can do LA+skill in 1 sec, meaning you can either negate the LA or the skill what ever comes first, usually LA.

This would be a bigger deal if snipe was the old snipe where it took longer in the air allowing you to hit them with multiple skills over a short period of time.

If I perfectly weave snipe and light attack to where at 0 seconds you are hit with snipe and at .5 seconds a LA, the only damage you took was the LA.

Going LA -> Snipe would be pointless because of the cast time and air travel of snipe.

So yes, you just avoided most of my damage with one streak. Streak again and you're out of LA range.

I'm not even going to get into line of sighting.

universal_wrath wrote: »

If it goes live, I don't see why would anyone would still want to use, snare immunity will be negiligable.

Because if you're trying to escape snare and immobilization immunity is the bees knees.

MashmalloMan · August 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

You only need one person attacking you to kill you after this change. Every player can do LA+skill in 1 sec, meaning you can either negate the LA or the skill what ever comes first, usually LA.

This would be a bigger deal if snipe was the old snipe where it took longer in the air allowing you to hit them with multiple skills over a short period of time.

If I perfectly weave snipe and light attack to where at 0 seconds you are hit with snipe and at .5 seconds a LA, the only damage you took was the LA.

Going LA -> Snipe would be pointless because of the cast time and air travel of snipe.

So yes, you just avoided most of my damage with one streak. Streak again and you're out of LA range.

I'm not even going to get into line of sighting.

universal_wrath wrote: »

If it goes live, I don't see why would anyone would still want to use, snare immunity will be negiligable.

Because if you're trying to escape snare and immobilization immunity is the bees knees.

Streak into Roll Dodge has a similar effect. Unless I was in Cyro, Streak is usually the better option for BG's where there is objects to line of sight constantly and the max amount of players attacking you is 4 because no one ever focusses 1 target in the group of 8.

As others said, it was only a matter of time because DK's Wings had similar effects and was nerfed much harder. The 15m teleport and snare removal is still there so it's better than other abilities in that category, but they hit it a bit too hard on the absorb side with the 1 per second since they're removing the ability to absorb projectiles for your team as well. Logically.. they should of just nered 1 part of it at a time instead, but we're dealing with ZOS here.

I'd like to see something like up to 4 projectiles can be absorbed per cast, but no CD between them. So if you really wanted to spam the skill in an outnumbered situation you can to get more defense, but your cost is going to ramp up to do so. It's win/lose situation that adds some play to the skill rather than enforcing an idea of "Only cast this every 4s" because thats the best you can get out of it.

On the flip side, no CD, but absorbs up to 4 projectiles adds something for the attacker too. They can actually tell when the orb will be burned down instead of worrying about if their LA hit first or not (due to projectile travel time.. LA's are usually much faster than traditional projectiles with the damage registering much earlier than the animation).

Andre_Noir · August 2021

Merforum wrote: »

Cloak is broken because people can use it in the middle of a fight and position behind player to get all benefit of sneak attack which should only be allowed at beginning of fight.

It's a lie. Sneak attack works only if target out of battle wich is impossible in described circumstances. If you mean a stun then you didn't even bother to read skills tooltip

mikey_reach · August 2021

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Cloak is broken because people can use it in the middle of a fight and position behind player to get all benefit of sneak attack which should only be allowed at beginning of fight.

It's a lie. Sneak attack works only if target out of battle wich is impossible in described circumstances. If you mean a stun then you didn't even bother to read skills tooltip

Yeah cloak definately equals invisibility not sneak so he is wrong there.

DrSlaughtr · August 2021

Could you imagine if shadowy desguise made all group members invisible? 😆

universal_wrath · August 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Could you imagine if shadowy desguise made all group members invisible? 😆

Atleast then it would promote team play, instead of useless solo nightblades in BGs rightin, only good at ganking and stealing kills.

DrSlaughtr · August 2021

universal_wrath wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Could you imagine if shadowy desguise made all group members invisible? 😆

Atleast then it would promote team play, instead of useless solo nightblades in BGs rightin, only good at ganking and stealing kills.

Stealing kills is what everyone does in BGs.

TheTruestKing · August 2021

Yeah. I'm using streak now. Using pariah backbar potententates temporal guard with quick cloak. 30k health 40k res crazy amount of aoe damage. So yeah now I'm pretty much unkillable and going to be stronger next patch. Ball of Lightning allowed glass cannon intuitive gameplay. Now I kinda feel like a braindead meta humping dumby. But everyone was right. Adept Improvise Overcome. Why BoL when I can just stand there and eat all incoming damage.

FlamingBeard · August 2021

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Yeah. I'm using streak now. Using pariah backbar potententates temporal guard with quick cloak. 30k health 40k res crazy amount of aoe damage. So yeah now I'm pretty much unkillable and going to be stronger next patch. Ball of Lightning allowed glass cannon intuitive gameplay. Now I kinda feel like a braindead meta humping dumby. But everyone was right. Adept Improvise Overcome. Why BoL when I can just stand there and eat all incoming damage.

If by "glass cannon" you meant "immune to projectiles and melee damage as long as I have magicka" then sure.

You realize BoL in its current Live version has made sorcs who are fully built for damage able to survive any melee or ranged attacks simultaneously while also removing snares... it has been and will still be one of the best defensive skills in PvP, containing more functions in 1 skill than some classes get from slotting 2 or 3 skills.

universal_wrath · August 2021

FlamingBeard wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Yeah. I'm using streak now. Using pariah backbar potententates temporal guard with quick cloak. 30k health 40k res crazy amount of aoe damage. So yeah now I'm pretty much unkillable and going to be stronger next patch. Ball of Lightning allowed glass cannon intuitive gameplay. Now I kinda feel like a braindead meta humping dumby. But everyone was right. Adept Improvise Overcome. Why BoL when I can just stand there and eat all incoming damage.

If by "glass cannon" you meant "immune to projectiles and melee damage as long as I have magicka" then sure.

You realize BoL in its current Live version has made sorcs who are fully built for damage able to survive any melee or ranged attacks simultaneously while also removing snares... it has been and will still be one of the best defensive skills in PvP, containing more functions in 1 skill than some classes get from slotting 2 or 3 skills.

Guess we will see how much of nerf BoL got when pta hits live, I highly doubt any many people would still use it over streak. Then next future update, people will start to complain about how steal is also overloaded/overperforming. Next after that maybe hurricame or critical surge, I don't know

Merforum · August 2021

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Cloak is broken because people can use it in the middle of a fight and position behind player to get all benefit of sneak attack which should only be allowed at beginning of fight.

It's a lie. Sneak attack works only if target out of battle wich is impossible in described circumstances. If you mean a stun then you didn't even bother to read skills tooltip

Who's lying, a 'sneak attack' is NOT a SKILL it is a generic term for when someone gets the benefit of FLANKING someone DURING A FIGHT. Cloak allows a NB to become untargetable, run behind someone, get BONUS FLANK BENEFITS, of yes 'Surprise attack' TO STUN, 'master assassin' 2974 penetration, cloak guaranteed CRIT, procs Camo hunter minor berserk. If vamp also get 300 w/s damage and I am probable missing some stuff. And NB can get ALL THESE BENEFITS OVER AND OVER. As I said what makes cloak OP is not escaping, but when used as above OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVELY at the same time.

Same can be said for STREAK. Not to bad is just talking about escaping, but when used OFFENSIVELY and stunning at the same time, is what makes it OP.