Jacozilla wrote: »

No, I am saying you are using the term incorrectly because you are. Even if I agreed with every other point you've made in this thread what you have been describing still would not be a straw man. It is just not the right term.

Sorry my error, not OP but coop500 who is the one I replied to - he stated ‘100k leet dps’ to which I disagreed and said why, then your reply, etc snowball from there.

Let me ask another question - how can it be common for 100k or whatever parse you want to define as extremely upper end when that proportion of the user base is so incredibly small? E.g. how can an uncommonly small percentage be what you call common enough to fit this narrative?

I’ve no stats so wont pretend to make up numbers, but whether 100k+ is fraction of a percent or some few percent like 1-3%, unless you think 100k parsers are common, how can you have what amounts to an extremely uncommon fraction of player population be common enough to say this is usual enough for the thread narrative to be true?

Personally as I’ve said multiple times, I believe ppl are confusing players with merely decent parses or exaggerating for effect 100k or whatever really high parse that fits whatever patch top-top end min max skill.

There are two failure modes being described here, and they are getting mixed up, and you have actually agreed with both of them:

1. "100K leets" might want to use their skill to skip mechs, and when that happens, they endanger the overall success of the group. This is what coop500 was referring to. You agreed with that.
2. DPS who perform well on parses in general but are not necessarily "leet" (80-85K) might suffer in actual combat situations, because the addition of mechanics and combat complexity is too much for them (the "fake DPS" in the OP). Several people posted their experiences demonstrating the commonality of this phenomenon. You agreed with this as well.

So, I guess I'm not sure where you are coming from on this, unless it's to say that the "100K leets" can universally do great in trials and dungeons when they understand and follow mechanics. I'm sure we'd all agree that's true.

preevious wrote: »

So, yeah, in the crushing, overwhelmingly vast majority of the cases, a DD doing great parses will do great in content.
The minimal, insignificant other handful of cases are exclusively caused by a temporary inexperience regarding a given, specific content. One run later, said DD will do great.

Wow, this has not been my experience at all. Just one run, eh? You must hang with savants.

Fair enough. I still have PTSD from working with 6 newer DPS trying to figure out twins in vMOL a few months ago. It required patience. We did it though.

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

My answer to that is that "common" like many terms can be used relatively just as it can be used absolutely. (And only a Sith deals in absolutes)

Online = Good. Maintenance = Bad.

Unlimited p0wer!!11!!!

preevious wrote: »

Well, it have already been said in several other threads as well.

People are "good on dummy" because they pay attention to the game. If they pay attention to the game, they are also good in actual content, and will play mechanics accordingly.

If a DD reach high number, there's no way he can be bad in actual content, because reaching 70k+ on the dummy means a solid knowledge of the game, and also more importantly, A REAL WILL TO BE GOOD.

So, yeah, in the crushing, overwhelmingly vast majority of the cases, a DD doing great parses will do great in content.
The minimal, insignificant other handful of cases are exclusively caused by a temporary inexperience regarding a given, specific content. One run later, said DD will do great.

Now, that's not to say that DD parsing lower are bad. You can be very good with a lower throughtput, also, and it would never cross my mind to expell a player for low DPS (except of course if it's VERY low in vet content .. seek advice, then, gotta crawl before you walk).

I've run into players that have the mindset that the amount of DPS they can do means they don't need to do the other stuff. It isn't that they don't know the mechanics or can't do the mechanics. It is that they refuse. I'll admit I've not run across a significant number of these types of players but they do exist. I quit running with a friend because he has an attitude that dodging, blocking, rezzing, or doing anything else that makes him miss a skill in his rotation is beneath his abilities.

There are players that spend time on dummies to get the big numbers so they can then post those big numbers. The type that posts their DPS and percentage after every fight and may even comment on carrying the group when truth be told they weren't helping the group much at all. With a few exceptions trials and dungeons do not have a DPS race. Those that do the numbers needed are not huge.

Again these types of players are not common but they are out there. As we tend to remember bad experiences more readily than good it can seem the problem is worse than it really is.

At this point I'm pulling 60k in the 21mil but I'm a valuable and trusted asset in my prog team. It's two different kind of skills. Some have one or the other, some have both, a lot have neither.

zvavi wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Comrades.

You are wrong.

What is difference of DD with 80 k dps and 100 k dps ?

DD put all his skills on DPS and remove healing and put all sustain to SPD or WPD.

And a lot of us do "fake" parses a lot of times, of build no sane gamer will go anywhere

With no heal ability sloted with no sustain and etc.

But just think about it.

You understand perfectly, if you usesome 1 target ability on Atro you can sustain, but if you use any AOE that is more expensive you will not sustain.

What is all this for ?

You will not goclose portal in vCR as example with no healing sloted.

Or may be you will go there with melle weapons on mage ?

Some builds are good just to stand and attack from behind target.
If you do not want to go mech and etc.

Even if you do LA+skill perfectly and your DPS is 100k and 10k are LA in it, if you skip 50% of la your dps will be 95k, if all build is the same.

But with out some ability sloted, your DPS will be 80k if you do rotation perfectly.
If you have healing sloted. Becouse you will have better sustain and healing as example.

I see no skill in 80-100k at all.

When you do not slack LA and skills i think a lot of other things are more important.

Not to get 100k in builds with no healing sloted , becouse no healing sloted.

As example.

That is a lot of runt. But in vCR, if I am not going portals, I will not have healings slotted. Lokke non HM? No healings. Yolna? No healings. Navii not portals? No healings.vMoL? No healing (unless runner).

Healers exist for a reason. We are not 12 solo players. Nor we are building for worst case scenario. We are 12 teammates built for efficiency.

That’s why vCR portal is often magblade as well. Run entropy instead of degen, swallow soul as spamable, bow proc every 5th skill. It’s all the heals you need. Tank runs 3rd orb after second elevator and you take the pizza back upstairs to DPS the mini.

Translation, I might not parse as high as the top DDs but at least I dont die as often..

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

I mean these dummy hoppers that stay on the ground aren't super rare in pugs. They aren't common but they aren't super rare, in my experience.

That said, this is very much a "why not both?" situation as a lot of the people who care enough to dps test also tend to be the people who care enough to memorize the mechanics of dungeons. And thus are competent teammates with good damage. Again, in my experience.

I think a lot of people like to stereotype people who practice on dummies with negative qualities because they are insecure about their own abilities, though they'd never admit it.

Also no, it is not a strawman argument. A strawman is one someone puts words in YOUR mouth, that cannot fairly be regarded as a summary of your argument, and then argues against that. This is more of the false dilemma fallacy, as it's not attributing these arguments to dummy hoppers. But rather presenting a either/or choice that implies that there are no other options in order to convince people to agree them by presenting faulty information.

As to your argument about what the majority is like and whether or not their is validity to their high parse/bad dps generalization....

Truth of the matter is none of us have stats on this phenomenon to know what percentage of the high parse playerbase dies often. And your anecdotal experience simply cannot be used to refute someone's own anecdote as false.

kargen27 wrote: »

. Not once did anyone suggest "100k players can’t learn or do real fight mechanics". That is something you tried to bring to the discussion. What the OP is saying is given the choice of high dummy parse or good awareness in dungeons/trials they will go with the good awareness.

Ironically, this is the only strawman argument I have come across in the thread. OP's post is a false dilemma, and it's getting further stretched by being strawmanned. Oh the humanities! Pun intended.