Disadvantages for werewolf and vampire too little

NordJitsu · April 2014

Vamps take 50% more fire damage and have up to 75% less health regen. Honestly I think their weaknesses are already a bit excessive.

I'd like to see the extra fire damage scale from only 20% at Vamp1 to a max of 50% at Vamp4 instead of always being at 50%.

And Silver Bolts absolutely wrecks vamps.

Phoenix99 · April 2014

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

I agree with some of what you said but I don't think there should be any cool down on Mist Form. Sure it's a getaway move and that's always annoying to fight against, but other classes (not sure which one) have teleport abilities that can teleport you away from attackers at a good distance. While the teleport ability may be more effective (sending you further away and possibly out of range of bows), Mist Form still takes skill to use. You "kinda" vanish for about 3.5 seconds but are still close enough to be attacked...hence people using it over and over again. Also keep in mind you don't become totally invisible like you can with a nightblade.

I don't think any ability in the game should ever have a cool down. Zenimax has stated before that you can cast spells to your heart's content...until your magicka runs out (excluding Ultimates of course). I love this. This sets ESO in a unique category since most games use annoying cool downs and I would hate to see ESO change 1 move or a handful of moves to a cool down system.

I am sorry, but using Mist takes absolutely 0 skill when you spam it and have magicka regen build to back it up. Either make it cost stamina, or add 1-1,5s delay so people have a chance of targeting vampire.

I believe you also have not fought a pack of 8-10 vampires at once. They just eat your face up unless you have like 3:1 advantage and even then most will escape if you kill 1 or 2, while you will take casualties (they just mist in, focus someone, mist out, heal, repeat)

There are 2 reliable skills in the whole game for locking misted vampire in place and they are DK's talons and sorc encase. Even these skills can be broken by simple rolling out and recasting mist. Another tactic is to spam big AoEs where they are and hope some will just die.

I've also put Mist and bolt escape into one basket and both of them should have this minor delay. I am not advocating any 10s or 30s or any big cooldowns. Just that 1-1,5s so ppl have a fighting and chasing chance to target their single target skills in between the casts. you still need to be tracking closely your target and have very good reaction time to use that 1-1,5s delay. Right now, you are either a sorc or another class with vampire template.

Hell, it's so good, that it might lead to the point that majority of a faction on one of PvP servers will become vampires.

Poster · April 2014

Why I oughta report this thread! MORE disadvantages?!

Brittany_Joy · April 2014

Phoenix99 wrote: »

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

I agree with some of what you said but I don't think there should be any cool down on Mist Form. Sure it's a getaway move and that's always annoying to fight against, but other classes (not sure which one) have teleport abilities that can teleport you away from attackers at a good distance. While the teleport ability may be more effective (sending you further away and possibly out of range of bows), Mist Form still takes skill to use. You "kinda" vanish for about 3.5 seconds but are still close enough to be attacked...hence people using it over and over again. Also keep in mind you don't become totally invisible like you can with a nightblade.

I don't think any ability in the game should ever have a cool down. Zenimax has stated before that you can cast spells to your heart's content...until your magicka runs out (excluding Ultimates of course). I love this. This sets ESO in a unique category since most games use annoying cool downs and I would hate to see ESO change 1 move or a handful of moves to a cool down system.

I am sorry, but using Mist takes absolutely 0 skill when you spam it and have magicka regen build to back it up. Either make it cost stamina, or add 1-1,5s delay so people have a chance of targeting vampire.

I believe you also have not fought a pack of 8-10 vampires at once. They just eat your face up unless you have like 3:1 advantage and even then most will escape if you kill 1 or 2, while you will take casualties (they just mist in, focus someone, mist out, heal, repeat)

There are 2 reliable skills in the whole game for locking misted vampire in place and they are DK's talons and sorc encase. Even these skills can be broken by simple rolling out and recasting mist. Another tactic is to spam big AoEs where they are and hope some will just die.

I've also put Mist and bolt escape into one basket and both of them should have this minor delay. I am not advocating any 10s or 30s or any big cooldowns. Just that 1-1,5s so ppl have a fighting and chasing chance to target their single target skills in between the casts. you still need to be tracking closely your target and have very good reaction time to use that 1-1,5s delay. Right now, you are either a sorc or another class with vampire template.

Hell, it's so good, that it might lead to the point that majority of a faction on one of PvP servers will become vampires.

I think ZoS is just going to increase the cost of those skills to the point were you can not spam them so much. Putting CDs on skills is against their design for ESO but they could just add a casting duration which isn't a CD but can be interrupted by enemies.

Nehemia · April 2014

Phoenix99 wrote: »

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

I agree with some of what you said but I don't think there should be any cool down on Mist Form. Sure it's a getaway move and that's always annoying to fight against, but other classes (not sure which one) have teleport abilities that can teleport you away from attackers at a good distance. While the teleport ability may be more effective (sending you further away and possibly out of range of bows), Mist Form still takes skill to use. You "kinda" vanish for about 3.5 seconds but are still close enough to be attacked...hence people using it over and over again. Also keep in mind you don't become totally invisible like you can with a nightblade.

I don't think any ability in the game should ever have a cool down. Zenimax has stated before that you can cast spells to your heart's content...until your magicka runs out (excluding Ultimates of course). I love this. This sets ESO in a unique category since most games use annoying cool downs and I would hate to see ESO change 1 move or a handful of moves to a cool down system.

I am sorry, but using Mist takes absolutely 0 skill when you spam it and have magicka regen build to back it up. Either make it cost stamina, or add 1-1,5s delay so people have a chance of targeting vampire.

I believe you also have not fought a pack of 8-10 vampires at once. They just eat your face up unless you have like 3:1 advantage and even then most will escape if you kill 1 or 2, while you will take casualties (they just mist in, focus someone, mist out, heal, repeat)

There are 2 reliable skills in the whole game for locking misted vampire in place and they are DK's talons and sorc encase. Even these skills can be broken by simple rolling out and recasting mist. Another tactic is to spam big AoEs where they are and hope some will just die.

I've also put Mist and bolt escape into one basket and both of them should have this minor delay. I am not advocating any 10s or 30s or any big cooldowns. Just that 1-1,5s so ppl have a fighting and chasing chance to target their single target skills in between the casts. you still need to be tracking closely your target and have very good reaction time to use that 1-1,5s delay. Right now, you are either a sorc or another class with vampire template.

Hell, it's so good, that it might lead to the point that majority of a faction on one of PvP servers will become vampires.

Because you cannot counter something, it doesn't mean it should be nerfed. People just don't nuke vampires in mistform. They cannot heal when they use it, so all you need to do is nuke the vamp down. It's not broken by any accounts, also it already has a delay with the cast animation.

Dreamo84 · April 2014

I never got how not feeding makes you more of a vampire. Seems backwards to me... does the sunlight ever end up burning you? Seems like a huge over site if it doesn't.

Phoenix99 · April 2014

Nehemia wrote: »

Because you cannot counter something, it doesn't mean it should be nerfed. People just don't nuke vampires in mistform. They cannot heal when they use it, so all you need to do is nuke the vamp down. It's not broken by any accounts, also it already has a delay with the cast animation.

Have you played vs 15 VR 3-10 ranked vampires, that had a couple of vampire DKs to face rush you while others picked off people? If you have not, then please do not comment.

I've been using talons, standard of might, silver bolts and some other skills. problem is that I went for more stamina oriented build, which probably was my big mistake seeing how weak stamina is vs magicka, but hey RP reasons drove me. I guess another factor is that we had very few vet ranks and mostly were levels 20-30, but we had like 2,5:1 numbers, and we were still being wiped, while they were losing a couple of vampires in the process and mostly because they were over extending and feeling too secure while chasing people down.

To deal with such vampire spam, you need very specific builds and even then you have not much reliable holds. Dark Talons and Encase are the only two that can really be PITA for the misted vampire. Good luck hitting your AoEs on vamps in elusive mist without locking them down first. Even then they have sick damage reduction while in mist form, then even more dmg reduction when they are below 50% HP and probably good self heals from class abilities (DK, templar) or resto staff (sorc). Top that with fire resistance items and there you go.

I've been there and fought against that, and while I admit my skill set and build is not designed purely for countering vampires I had enough tools that should allow me and other alliance members to not get smacked around like little B... (talons, standard of might, silver bolts, preserving stamina for defensive rolls)

justinginn08_ESO · April 2014

I have a friend and he and I argued about the likeliness of me killing him as he is a vamp and I don't plan to do either. The way he read off his stuff made it seem like he was just about invincible (I'm a DK he is a nightblade) even with my fire attacks and silver bolts it wouldn't do nearly enough before he downed me lucky if i get a shot off with all the cc. Nightblade as a vampire holds such an advantage against others i've seen what he can do to groups of 3. When you are in pvp its unlikely you are going to run around with fighters guild skills only because against the majority at the moment its not worth it as it doesn't deal enough to those who are not foul creatures of the night. Not to mention that several skills are absolutely worthless, I just don't quite see the edge that we get against anyone else, other than spam the s**t out of silver bolt and hope it kills them only to run out of stam because a single shot is almost a 1/4 of my stam bar. I also don't like running with zergs majority of the time i prefer working in small-medium sized groups.

If this was the case during the 2nd era of Tamriel well I don't see why everyone isn't a vampire or vampires don't rule the entirety of Nirn.

If I'm completely missing something completely please correct me or show me back to the light because I feel tamriel will fall into darkness.

chimneyswift_ESO · April 2014

Phoenix99 wrote: »

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

I agree with some of what you said but I don't think there should be any cool down on Mist Form. Sure it's a getaway move and that's always annoying to fight against, but other classes (not sure which one) have teleport abilities that can teleport you away from attackers at a good distance. While the teleport ability may be more effective (sending you further away and possibly out of range of bows), Mist Form still takes skill to use. You "kinda" vanish for about 3.5 seconds but are still close enough to be attacked...hence people using it over and over again. Also keep in mind you don't become totally invisible like you can with a nightblade.

I don't think any ability in the game should ever have a cool down. Zenimax has stated before that you can cast spells to your heart's content...until your magicka runs out (excluding Ultimates of course). I love this. This sets ESO in a unique category since most games use annoying cool downs and I would hate to see ESO change 1 move or a handful of moves to a cool down system.

I am sorry, but using Mist takes absolutely 0 skill when you spam it and have magicka regen build to back it up. Either make it cost stamina, or add 1-1,5s delay so people have a chance of targeting vampire.

I believe you also have not fought a pack of 8-10 vampires at once. They just eat your face up unless you have like 3:1 advantage and even then most will escape if you kill 1 or 2, while you will take casualties (they just mist in, focus someone, mist out, heal, repeat)

There are 2 reliable skills in the whole game for locking misted vampire in place and they are DK's talons and sorc encase. Even these skills can be broken by simple rolling out and recasting mist. Another tactic is to spam big AoEs where they are and hope some will just die.

I've also put Mist and bolt escape into one basket and both of them should have this minor delay. I am not advocating any 10s or 30s or any big cooldowns. Just that 1-1,5s so ppl have a fighting and chasing chance to target their single target skills in between the casts. you still need to be tracking closely your target and have very good reaction time to use that 1-1,5s delay. Right now, you are either a sorc or another class with vampire template.

Hell, it's so good, that it might lead to the point that majority of a faction on one of PvP servers will become vampires.

No offence bro but this kinda sounds like your problem, and after reading your posts sounds like your only solution to dealing with a problem that apparently bugs you more than others. I'm not sure what types of vampires you've faced in PvP, but i can tell you that in PvP as a vampire I get absolutely smashed! I'm super squishy and the weakness to fire certainly does massive damage if you aren't careful. Instead of complaining about tweaking an ability that is unique to vampires simply because you can't "beat it," why don't you find a creative solution of your own to counter it? There are plenty of things within the game to work with, for instance I've died MULTIPLE times in Mist Form in PvP because I got snared before I even went into it. Mist Form's morph, Elusive Mist, gives increased movement speed while in it, but if I'm snared before I even use it then when I do use it I'm still suuuuuper slow. Enemies can continue to do damage, even if it's lower and I still can't heal inside Mist Form. This has actually gotten me killed numerous times. All I've gathered so far is that you're bitter about being "face rushed" a few times in PvP by a class you can't seem to creatively counter. Keep in mind, the game is still very new and I think instead of putting a delay on the casting of Mist Form people should come up with plans and builds to defeat both Werewolves and Vampires (or at least have 1 ability that can help you with that). Also, in PvP groups are key...you'll get face rushed by an army of squishy light armor level 10's too if they out number you enough. Just my thoughts man, don't mean to make you mad or anything...I just think people should be up to the challenge of defeating something with the game mechanics given before crying "NERF PLS"

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · April 2014

Vampire are fine just fix mist form healing and it will be all right

Zordrage · April 2014

there is an army of DK playing PvP constantly you either need to be Insane or seriously good or need to play like a chicken if you want to PvP as a Vamp.

i mean they arent realy OP or anything they are NOT DRACULE :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRzuOTrUE4g

damn i loved this game....

Phoenix99 · April 2014

@chimneyswift_ESO

I'll give you a stick and I will hold a gun, be up to a challenge and try to beat me up.

Not sure what level of vampire you are, and what items you have, but I can assure you that vampire is not as squishy as you think.

If you get snared before you go into mist form, just roll back... unless there is 10 people usinng gap closing skill with dmg in the same moment on you, you should be able to survive. What are you using stamina for as a vampire?

Being rooted near enemies is a certain death for any hero if he faces enemies of the same level and is outnumbered in that situation, vampire though has a chance of surviving, by doing exactly two things, roll out and spam the Mist hotkey to activate it ASAP, before they can land another root. Yes, there are AoE roots, that can be used even when you are in the mist form, but the exact number is TWO, and in case of one of them you need to be very close to the enemy. 75% dmg reduction and additional dmg reduction once you hit 50% HP threshold are no joke. Add fire resistance items and that 50% extra dmg from fire is almost a non factor.

Yes, you have to be good, because someone bad will be bad no matter what he will play, and vampire is something that in hands of a bad player may seem not so strong. We are talking here about good players and the potential of the skill set in the hands of good players.

chimneyswift_ESO · April 2014

@Phoenix99
I use stamina for 1 of my weapon abilities, but that's beside the point. Look man, I see your points and I get your frustration but it's part of the game. Are these vampires that you allegedly "can't" kill keeping you from getting Emperorship or something cause you're making it seem like due to the fact that you can't kill them it's driving you utterly insane. I dunno. From your post it's clear you obviously think you're mega good at PvP, but keep in mind Mist Form is also useful in PvE where a large number of people spend their time...including myself. When going solo in PvE it's nice as a vampire to be able to use that to survive and not die (wreck our gear, etc.) So just let it go man, it's 1 move in a game with hundreds of abilities. Definitely not the end of the world and if you can't let it go then once again you have 2 options.

Option 1: Find a way to counter it.
Option 2: Become a vampire and use the move too.

Good day sir.

tordr86b16_ESO · April 2014

Too little? You have zero clue dude. Try doing Veteran Content and come back to me when you have come across Dragon Knight type mobs. You'll wish you never became infected because that 50% increased fire damage will one shot you in some situations.

In fact, the fire debuff should be reduced in my honest opinion because not only does it break PvP it also breaks part of your PvE content.

SunfireKnight86 · April 2014

I must say, Vampires are pretty powerful. Anyone who thinks that extra fire damage matters after stacking three veteran fire resist runes hasn't tried it. I take less fire damage as a vampire than I did as a human.

But we still have the fighter's guild line right? I mean, Silver Bolts knock people over! I'm a NB. Half of my attacks knock people over. That doesn't mean I kill everyone in PvP.

By the time you max out vamp and add a few enchants there is no downside to it and a HUGE upside in damage reduction, health draining abilities, and stat recovery. There is a reason that one of the hottest builds in PvP is the vamp/dk right now.

What do I suggest? Reduce the power of the Undeath skill a little. I love it because I use it, but a 50% dmg reduction is OP when you stack it on all the other reductions people like DK already have.

Valmond · April 2014

when you max out fire resist with enchants, it means you are not using those enchants on other things.
Which is a weakness in itself.

SunfireKnight86 · April 2014

How? What would you use those jewel enchants for that you feel you're missing out on? I take LESS FIRE DAMAGE THAN I DID AS A HUMAN. That's a huge bonus, not a determent- Especially when you consider that everyone sees I'm a vamp and tries to light me on fire. The best use for enchants is damage reduction by a long shot. I'm not "wasting a slot" I'm using it how I would have anyway.

EDIT:

I logged in and checked to prove my point. I can reduce the cost of an ability by 16. (Nice) I can add 7 damage. (Useless) I can increase regen 14 on a stat. (Pretty Nice) Increase potion effect. (meh) Decrease CD for potions. (Very nice) or I can add 675 resistance. That's just with a Denata and not a Kuta.

The bonuses for enchants are highly slanted towards defense on jewels and armor with the exception of the potion speed. Like I said, I can add 21 damage or 2000 fire resist. Not a hard choice. I would chose the fire resist even if I wasn't a vampire.

Valmond · April 2014

And if you weren't vampire, you would take less fire damage.
The disadvantage is there, it is not crippling (nor should it be), but it is there.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · April 2014

If anything they need to fix the ulti cost going constantly back to 200 even in stage 4. I don't think vampire needs to be weakened its just fighters guild skillset that sucks and could use an improvement (especialy silver bolt 5% chance to smite you realy want to menace me with that?)

Demosthenes86 · April 2014

Hadan_of_Rift wrote: »

Already seeing vampires and werewolves in PvP and the huge skill line advantages, especially the passive abilities compared to poison vulnerability werewolf and fire vulnerability vampire are too weak, especially werewolf since there are very few poison attacks.

I see this turning into vamp vs werewolf instead of ESO. It reminds me of the unlocking of Jedi in Star Wars Galaxies were almost everyone was playing one. Pretty disappointed on how this is turning out so early in the life of this game.

I would think that a templar caster would destroy a vampire. Eclipse the vampire and burn him down with fire spells. Templar have rediculous burst damage and with eclipse you can pretty much negate a vampires high damage (or just straight up kill him if he tries to cast a nuke on you).

If it is a melee vampire you can kite him with sun fire and spear while doing more fire damage.

Just a thought

kevjon74_ESO · April 2014

strikethub17_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that is planning on tanking should be neither a werewolf or a vampire. And definitely not a vampire. Introducing weaknesses like that is just going to make you an ineffective tank in Veteran content. I really hope people are thinking this through before they do it.

I agree at veteran levels it may be an issue (don't know not there yet), but being a werewolf tank hasn't been an issue for me at the standard levels... not that I use the werewolf ultimate in group dungeons as a tank. And I haven't even needed my poison resistance jewelry I keep handy. I was definitely concerned the first couple of dungeons I ran, but apparently it doesn't matter nearly as much as I was thinking it would.