Feeling overwhelmed with the grind...

Tolmos · August 2015

I love the gameplay system of ESO. When I first started, it really felt like a system that focused more on player skill than player stats... at least more than most MMOs. The questing is fun and immersive, the PvP is quite enjoyable... but there's always been this giant looming monster floating overhead: every day that I spend on a pre-50 character not earning CP, whether it was my main pre-50 or any alt, is time I am falling behind in having any possible hope (not that there is any, as late in the game as I started) at being truly competitive in PvP.

Now, I know a lot of players here are of the mind that since I started leveling later than most, I can't reasonably expect to ever compete with the players who have been here since the beginning. That seniority immediately entitles a player to victory. The problem is... I joined the game to compete. :-\

Fun, competitive PvP in a persistent world is what I joined this game to play, so that is my focus (I know PvP works in campaigns, but my character still exists in a persistent world). Because of this, and the overbearing shadow that I am left feeling like CP casts over my chances of truly competing, I find myself grinding a LOT.

Leveling to VR14 I can handle. Leveling to VR16 I can handle. The gear I can handle. These are all viable and attainable goals that I will eventually work up towards. But a near limitless progression that increases multiple stats and passives by a max of 25% across the board (which, when all compounded together, is a much bigger advantage than just having 25% more health)? That's daunting, to say the least.

I know ZOS is looking into this and all, but the past few days I've found it pretty hard to motivate myself to log in and grind more. :-\ I suppose this is really just a vent thread, but I just wanted to throw it out there. And this is coming from someone who actually played and enjoyed Aion at it's max grind. Even THAT didn't feel as daunting. 0_o

Donning flame suit now.

DenMoria · August 2015

It's a grind. But, then again, most MMO's are grinds.

Me, I play. Then I set the game aside and come back later. I don't understand folks that can keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ad infinitim.

To me, the quests are all the same, the maps are pretty much the same, the NPCs all pretty much act the same, the weapons and armor are pretty much the same, the crafting is fetch this, make that and the differences on improvement are negligible.

The Grouping are, in general, about as deep as puddles and the Guilds, while the folks are great, are an awful place to sell or buy anything (although they do make grouping far easier). Sorry guys, but 4K for a recipe I can just find for free if I have a little patience or 50K for a staff that I can find almost anywhere just isn't worth it.

demendred · August 2015

Take a break from the game. Come back refreshed.

acw37162 · August 2015

PS4 player here, so I've only been playing the seven or eight weeks since console launch.

I have two toons both level 43.

It's my understanding champion points are unlocked by time spent in game? If that's the case I think a some type of system that awards you champion points that you can not see or use till you reach appropriate level is fair and allows people to play an alt at a pace they want rather then a pace they feel they have to to keep up with joneses so to speak.

The grind is definitely real in this game and like you OP I enjoy almost every aspect of the combat except he targeting on the PS4 version.

No offense intended to any of the development team but target on the PS4 is TERRIBLE, honestly someone should be embarrassed this targeting system made it to the final product, just one mans opinion.

Inactive Account · August 2015

demendred wrote: »

Take a break from the game. Come back refreshed.

Agreed,

It's amazing how frustrated one can get with playing MMO's. Frustration can build up over time to the point of you getting so pissed-off that you uninstall. (speaking from experience)

Even a short week or two break in any game time can do wonders for your enjoyment of the game.

Jando · August 2015

I know exactly what you mean. Which is why, since day 1 that the Champion System was first released on the PTS, i have been saying that they got it wrong.

In my opinion, the system should be finite, and tuned to be completed in approximately the time it used to take to reach VR14.

See discussion here:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/155768/the-champion-system-its-problems-and-a-proposed-solution/p1

Tolmos · August 2015

I think a lot of you are right; chances are I have gotten myself frustrated and it is just compounding. It could be that I do need a break to get true fulfillment of the game.

acw37162 wrote: »

It's my understanding champion points are unlocked by time spent in game? If that's the case I think a some type of system that awards you champion points that you can not see or use till you reach appropriate level is fair and allows people to play an alt at a pace they want rather then a pace they feel they have to to keep up with joneses so to speak.

Hmm... @acw37162 , this sounds kinda right, but kinda wrong?

I believe that after you reach level 50 on a character, you gain 1 CP per day. You also gain CP via XP, at 1 CP per 400,000 XP earned. So you will get a minimum of 1 CP every day after 50, a maximum of whatever you can grind out.

Now, as for an alt... you will only gain your main's 1 CP per day if you play on a pre-50 alt, since that character won't have any of their XP go towards CP (plus, it would take you forever to get even 1 when you are pre-50). So if you want to gain CP at a faster rate than the base 1 CP per day, you will want to do so on a character that is 50 or above.

I'm not sure what the average CP gained per day is for most folks, but I see a lot of folks saying they usually get 2-4 a day. Harcore grinders might be able to accomplish much more than that.

Kozer · August 2015

I was excited to hit VR 1 and begin earning CP. I was told by a few people that once I got 1 guys to a VR rank I would then be able to earn CP if I leveled an alt. Thats what I was planning on doing. Needless to say I have now been informed otherwise and it is daunting to the extreme. It makes me feel like I should only focus on my DK main and not bother with any others if I want to be able to do anything.

Edit: I now see the comment posted above me. Thats good info to know but I still get discouraged.
Also I know a guy on xbox who came from PC. He has 2 VR 14s and quite a lot of lower ranked vets. He says he has over 2600 CP.

Techlisp · August 2015

Remember an MMO is still a game, not your life.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

I outlined all the new grind systems coming with IC in this post. Yea, it's overwhelming and not completely in a good way

leepalmer95 · August 2015

Kozer wrote: »

I was excited to hit VR 1 and begin earning CP. I was told by a few people that once I got 1 guys to a VR rank I would then be able to earn CP if I leveled an alt. Thats what I was planning on doing. Needless to say I have now been informed otherwise and it is daunting to the extreme. It makes me feel like I should only focus on my DK main and not bother with any others if I want to be able to do anything.

Edit: I now see the comment posted above me. Thats good info to know but I still get discouraged.
Also I know a guy on xbox who came from PC. He has 2 VR 14s and quite a lot of lower ranked vets. He says he has over 2600 CP.

2600 huh

He's lying.

Kozer · August 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

I was excited to hit VR 1 and begin earning CP. I was told by a few people that once I got 1 guys to a VR rank I would then be able to earn CP if I leveled an alt. Thats what I was planning on doing. Needless to say I have now been informed otherwise and it is daunting to the extreme. It makes me feel like I should only focus on my DK main and not bother with any others if I want to be able to do anything.

Edit: I now see the comment posted above me. Thats good info to know but I still get discouraged.
Also I know a guy on xbox who came from PC. He has 2 VR 14s and quite a lot of lower ranked vets. He says he has over 2600 CP.

2600 huh

He's lying.

I may be misremembering. It may be 1600

Tolmos · August 2015

Kozer wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

I was excited to hit VR 1 and begin earning CP. I was told by a few people that once I got 1 guys to a VR rank I would then be able to earn CP if I leveled an alt. Thats what I was planning on doing. Needless to say I have now been informed otherwise and it is daunting to the extreme. It makes me feel like I should only focus on my DK main and not bother with any others if I want to be able to do anything.

Edit: I now see the comment posted above me. Thats good info to know but I still get discouraged.
Also I know a guy on xbox who came from PC. He has 2 VR 14s and quite a lot of lower ranked vets. He says he has over 2600 CP.

2600 huh

He's lying.

I may be misremembering. It may be 1600

Still pretty high. To achieve that, he would have had to earn ~3,700,000 XP or more, per day every day since it released...

That's a lot of XP >_>

Eriquito3 · August 2015

All mmo's are a grind, they always start off with more skillful gameplay as well and then gradually move away from that as stats become stronger.

Sad truth.

If you want to play games that revolve more around skillful gameplay , then get involved with mobas.

joshisanonymous · August 2015

I believe they said in the last ESO Live that they're capping CP. No worries.

Tolmos · August 2015

joshisanonymous wrote: »

I believe they said in the last ESO Live that they're capping CP. No worries.

Really? I am extremely interested in this. I can't find anything written up about it yet; do you know if they gave any specifics of what that entails?

Kozer · August 2015

Isn't it already capped at 3600?

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Kozer wrote: »

Isn't it already capped at 3600?

Yes, but they severely underestimated how many points players would accrue in such a short timeframe. ZOS wanted this system to take years to present balance problems, not months.

Dahkoht · August 2015

Find original style Lineage 2 server. Play for a week.

Never again will any other mmo feel like a grind

Problem solved.

( on that note I loved L2 , just the xps requirements have made every other game before and after seem fast in comparison)

Tolmos · August 2015

Dahkoht wrote: »

Find original style Lineage 2 server. Play for a week.

Never again will any other mmo feel like a grind

Problem solved.

( on that note I loved L2 , just the xps requirements have made every other game before and after seem fast in comparison)

lol! I have a coworker who absolutely loves L2, and has been playing it from day 1. He has said this on more than one occasion. I actually played it during open Beta, back when they were offering an Alienware PC to the first person to hit level 20 (I think? Or maybe a higher level, I can't remember). It's a shame I did that, because I judged the game rather harshly based on that experience and never gave it a proper shot. After playing Aion later, I realized what I missed out on.

Still, if I had played Lineage 2, I wouldn't have played Shadowbane so I guess it turned out for the best. =D

Psychobunni · August 2015

I have 2 V14s I have barely done a thing with since 1.6, and since a sale the other week I now have 16 to play with (insert that giddy little boy rubbing his hands like he's rich meme)

I have found for "Fun, competitive PvP" the non-vet campaign is where it's at, and have mostly been playing a different toon each day trying out some things a year ago I wouldnt have touched. Sure progress is minimal, the new acct even more so without the CP balance to start off with.

My point is, I can't and am unwilling to grind all day. There are some that focus on staying ahead of the nerf hammer and finding the best spots, etc etc etc and you know what? What will they have to do when they are miles away from the majority of the base and the game isn't ready for them? Not a darn thing.

ZOS has realized the implementation was screwed, benefiting the least over the more and ARE working on it. If you don't want to keep up with the Joneses Grinders....find your own fun like I have or take a break until they have some bandaids in. But there isn't going to be a quick fix.

FilthyMudcrabs · August 2015

I don't get this whole "I can't compete" mentality. There are so many ways to compete and make a difference in PVP.

Join a group and lay down some siege to attack/defend. Revive your team mates and heal them if you're a healer. Rebuild walls. If you're weak, only go up against a v14 if you have others to support you. No matter what you do, you'll be helping.

Dahkoht · August 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Find original style Lineage 2 server. Play for a week.

Never again will any other mmo feel like a grind

Problem solved.

( on that note I loved L2 , just the xps requirements have made every other game before and after seem fast in comparison)

lol! I have a coworker who absolutely loves L2, and has been playing it from day 1. He has said this on more than one occasion. I actually played it during open Beta, back when they were offering an Alienware PC to the first person to hit level 20 (I think? Or maybe a higher level, I can't remember). It's a shame I did that, because I judged the game rather harshly based on that experience and never gave it a proper shot. After playing Aion later, I realized what I missed out on.

Still, if I had played Lineage 2, I wouldn't have played Shadowbane so I guess it turned out for the best. =D

I enjoyed Aion at launch , just never really grabbed me like L2 for some reason.

The L2 xps grind was brutal , but holy cow when you got a single level you celebrated as it felt like it mattered.

Tolmos · August 2015

FilthyMudcrabs wrote: »

I don't get this whole "I can't compete" mentality. There are so many ways to compete and make a difference in PVP.

Join a group and lay down some siege to attack/defend. Revive your team mates and heal them if you're a healer. Rebuild walls. If you're weak, only go up against a v14 if you have others to support you. No matter what you do, you'll be helping.

I can appreciate that mentality, but I'm not really sure I can simply content myself with always being the little expendable pawn, destined to run away or die when caught alone, and always needing to follow in the wake of the "big boys", who grinded out tons of stats. Especially when I get into situations where I outplay my opponent skill wise, but the difference in stats is enough that a few lucky shots vs my many shots will end me.

Leveling up I am a grunt. C'est la vie, we all have to start somewhere. Leveling up includes 1-50 and VR1 to VR14. But there really needs to be a reasonably attainable point where I can say "Ok, the stat handicap has been removed. I am now on par with everyone else and if I die, it's purely skill or build". Before, geared VR14 was that mark. But right now? That mark doesn't really exist in any tangible form. That's extremely daunting.

Kuroinu · August 2015

@Tolmos (The OP)

Like you've said, you're content with many things in the game but have this "looming monster" - as you put it; the grind to max level and the time spent not obtaining champion points.

I understand that PvP is what you want to be competitive in the most, since that's the nature of PvP. However, PvP is having some major updates and will be undergoing big changes throughout the rest of this year(and beyond, of course). I believe the equality will return to PvP to make most encounters competitive and enjoyable regardless of how many champion points a person has or doesn't have; while still making the obtaining of champion points worth while.

Until then, and this might not sound helpful at all. But it's probably best you just enjoy what you enjoy about the game and not get hung up on this "falling behind" nonsense. The game is still pretty new, lol.

firstdecan · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Kozer wrote: »

Isn't it already capped at 3600?

Yes, but they severely underestimated how many points players would accrue in such a short timeframe. ZOS wanted this system to take years to present balance problems, not months.

Can someone slap-a-dev (figuratively) and tell them that punting a problem is punting a problem, regardless of how far you punt.

firstdecan · August 2015

FilthyMudcrabs wrote: »

I don't get this whole "I can't compete" mentality. There are so many ways to compete and make a difference in PVP.

Join a group and lay down some siege to attack/defend. Revive your team mates and heal them if you're a healer. Rebuild walls. If you're weak, only go up against a v14 if you have others to support you. No matter what you do, you'll be helping.

No one wants to play second fiddle to someone whose only accomplishments are based on how long they go without leaving the basement. Most people will put in a reasonable amount of time to get to 'end game,' but do not expect an entertainment medium to cater to the mentally ill who do nothing else all day. If ZoS' only goal is to cater to the no-lifers, they will soon find their product in a race to the bottom.

The more people comment on this game, the more I am reminded of the WoW episode of South Park. The bitter truth of it is becoming frighteningly more apparent.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · August 2015

I never hope that they release other classes, becuse the levling up is so boring. That i never get aother charcater then my NB

DenMoria · August 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

FilthyMudcrabs wrote: »

I don't get this whole "I can't compete" mentality. There are so many ways to compete and make a difference in PVP.

Join a group and lay down some siege to attack/defend. Revive your team mates and heal them if you're a healer. Rebuild walls. If you're weak, only go up against a v14 if you have others to support you. No matter what you do, you'll be helping.

I can appreciate that mentality, but I'm not really sure I can simply content myself with always being the little expendable pawn, destined to run away or die when caught alone, and always needing to follow in the wake of the "big boys", who grinded out tons of stats. Especially when I get into situations where I outplay my opponent skill wise, but the difference in stats is enough that a few lucky shots vs my many shots will end me.

Leveling up I am a grunt. C'est la vie, we all have to start somewhere. Leveling up includes 1-50 and VR1 to VR14. But there really needs to be a reasonably attainable point where I can say "Ok, the stat handicap has been removed. I am now on par with everyone else and if I die, it's purely skill or build". Before, geared VR14 was that mark. But right now? That mark doesn't really exist in any tangible form. That's extremely daunting.

I have absolutely no problem with being the expendable healer that can deal out DPS. That's fine with me. I don't want to lead, I don't want to be the best and I don't need to be top dog.

If anyone thinks someone like this is useful, I'll go back to work on my healer templar and get her up to an acceptable level before too long. BTW - what is an acceptable level? I don't see very many low level groupings, let alone anything below V1, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I've found that I'm very good at keeping people well and revived and being able to defend myself while backing away. Maybe I've found my niche.

BRogueNZ · August 2015

DenMoria wrote: »

Tolmos wrote: »

FilthyMudcrabs wrote: »

I don't get this whole "I can't compete" mentality. There are so many ways to compete and make a difference in PVP.

Join a group and lay down some siege to attack/defend. Revive your team mates and heal them if you're a healer. Rebuild walls. If you're weak, only go up against a v14 if you have others to support you. No matter what you do, you'll be helping.

I can appreciate that mentality, but I'm not really sure I can simply content myself with always being the little expendable pawn, destined to run away or die when caught alone, and always needing to follow in the wake of the "big boys", who grinded out tons of stats. Especially when I get into situations where I outplay my opponent skill wise, but the difference in stats is enough that a few lucky shots vs my many shots will end me.

Leveling up I am a grunt. C'est la vie, we all have to start somewhere. Leveling up includes 1-50 and VR1 to VR14. But there really needs to be a reasonably attainable point where I can say "Ok, the stat handicap has been removed. I am now on par with everyone else and if I die, it's purely skill or build". Before, geared VR14 was that mark. But right now? That mark doesn't really exist in any tangible form. That's extremely daunting.

I have absolutely no problem with being the expendable healer that can deal out DPS. That's fine with me. I don't want to lead, I don't want to be the best and I don't need to be top dog.

If anyone thinks someone like this is useful, I'll go back to work on my healer templar and get her up to an acceptable level before too long. BTW - what is an acceptable level? I don't see very many low level groupings, let alone anything below V1, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I've found that I'm very good at keeping people well and revived and being able to defend myself while backing away. Maybe I've found my niche.

With Templar you don't find your niche.. the niche finds you

Egonieser · August 2015

I totally agree with it and i feel the same way. Even though i have 3 VR14 chars, it feels like I've accomplished nothing because i only have 283 CP.
What i personally think we they should have done is capped the CP's at lets say... 300-400 or somewhere along those lines and make them increase more stats per CP. Yeah at first the grinders will be stronger as they will cap out pretty quick, but the difference is, a casual player will be able to catch up eventually and in reasonable timeframe leveling the playing fields.
With this method, grinders would still get what they aim for - being strong quick, but right now - they remain stronger indefinitely as the gap is just increasing and increasing between them and a casual player with no chance of ever catching up.

I understand ZOS wants to have a method in place to entice people to stay in the game, but as it stands right now, it is completely off the scales, it is done wrong on so many levels, but the idea itself is reasonable, but it needs to be done RIGHT, and it needs to be balanced, to avoid creating complete power imbalance.

Even top ranked pvp players have admitted this. They have been unchallenged previously due to their superior skill and tactics in pvp, but even they said they struggle or even outright lose to someone less skilled but with huge amount of CP's. Because lets face it, to become a skilled player, you must pvp a lot. Pvp does not net you lots of XP, therefore less CP. But then someone who has more time to grind comes along and destroys you with their motherlode of stats and CP's and you think to yourself... Why did I even bother becoming better and practicing to pvp when killing a load of mobs with steel tornado just negates all that effort? It's what i sometimes think, being a quite a dedicated pvp player since launch, i can tell who truly is good and who has a huge stat advantage. You just look at their rotation and counters and think... How did he even beat me with that? But it happens, not too often, but it does. By no means i am the best, but not the worst either, i more or less know all the tricks and tactics most classes can do and sometimes it just hits you, the stat difference is just too great sometimes to be viable, regardless what i throw at them. Even if it is just 10% of all stats more, it is enough to have that artificial edge.