It was fun while it lasted

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Hasty Retreat (passive): This passive now grants the Major Expedition buff for 1 second/2 seconds instead of a 30% movement speed bonus.


So now this gives M.E. like Rapid Maneuvers, Double Take, Boundless Storm, and Quick Cloak. This makes no sense as the M.E. lasts 2 seconds and to keep it up you will blow your stam apart with 33% increase to consecutive rolls. I really don't understand why this had to be changed. A lot of people still chose not to use bow knowing HR stacked with M.E. granting abilities, so it wasn't exactly OP...


You guys are really trying hard to nerf mobility.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The whole point of the buff system was to prevent so many different types of the same bonus from stacking. It makes sense because it is consistent.

Yet we can still stack Empower, Major Brutality, and Minor Berserk for a super attack. You can still stack Empower, Major Sorcerery, and Minor Berserk for a super Magicka based attack. There are also other stackable similar buffs that are defensive and a few different ways to stack dodge, albeit with dimishing returns.

No, they are deliberately nerfing mobility. Bolt Escape and dodge rolling both got hit as well. This is the only thing consistent.

Xael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Hasty Retreat (passive): This passive now grants the Major Expedition buff for 1 second/2 seconds instead of a 30% movement speed bonus.


So now this gives M.E. like Rapid Maneuvers, Double Take, Boundless Storm, and Quick Cloak. This makes no sense as the M.E. lasts 2 seconds and to keep it up you will blow your stam apart with 33% increase to consecutive rolls. I really don't understand why this had to be changed. A lot of people still chose not to use bow knowing HR stacked with M.E. granting abilities, so it wasn't exactly OP...


You guys are really trying hard to nerf mobility.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The whole point of the buff system was to prevent so many different types of the same bonus from stacking. It makes sense because it is consistent.

Yet we can still stack Empower, Major Brutality, and Minor Berserk for a super attack. You can still stack Empower, Major Sorcerery, and Minor Berserk for a super Magicka based attack. There are also other stackable similar buffs that are defensive and a few different ways to stack dodge, albeit with dimishing returns.

No, they are deliberately nerfing mobility. Bolt Escape and dodge rolling both got hit as well. This is the only thing consistent.

Perhaps you hit on something in that last sentence? I would see no problem changing the bow passive to grant minor expedition to keep consistency and still maintain the theme of retreating bow users, but straight stacking percentage bonuses are not in-line with how much of ESO's combat plays out.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Hasty Retreat (passive): This passive now grants the Major Expedition buff for 1 second/2 seconds instead of a 30% movement speed bonus.


So now this gives M.E. like Rapid Maneuvers, Double Take, Boundless Storm, and Quick Cloak. This makes no sense as the M.E. lasts 2 seconds and to keep it up you will blow your stam apart with 33% increase to consecutive rolls. I really don't understand why this had to be changed. A lot of people still chose not to use bow knowing HR stacked with M.E. granting abilities, so it wasn't exactly OP...


You guys are really trying hard to nerf mobility.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The whole point of the buff system was to prevent so many different types of the same bonus from stacking. It makes sense because it is consistent.

Yet we can still stack Empower, Major Brutality, and Minor Berserk for a super attack. You can still stack Empower, Major Sorcerery, and Minor Berserk for a super Magicka based attack. There are also other stackable similar buffs that are defensive and a few different ways to stack dodge, albeit with dimishing returns.

No, they are deliberately nerfing mobility. Bolt Escape and dodge rolling both got hit as well. This is the only thing consistent.

Perhaps you hit on something in that last sentence? I would see no problem changing the bow passive to grant minor expedition to keep consistency and still maintain the theme of retreating bow users, but straight stacking percentage bonuses are not in-line with how much of ESO combat play out.

Not sure how you can make that statement. I just showed you that % stacking is very much the part of ESO combat. Take regen, defensives, damage, etc. There is so much stacking through the CP alone to make such a claim is silly.

I can understand why you would want to get away from a system like this, sure, however it is a big part of combat already.

Xael wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

What does bow really offer over other weapons in the current meta of cyroblobs though other than sniping from stealth?

Nothing anymore? Great.

Now that poison will scale with weapon damage and spell damage, a little.
HR on the other hand was one of the main reasons people equipped a bow, much similar to people equipping a resto staff just for Healing Ward.

This is a terrible nerf.

Agreed, it helps, but again, its not enough to warrant it being on the bar for *type* of players that were using it. It was used for small/solo group play and it had a great purpose.

Really wish there was some level of communication from ZOS when it came to decisions of balance. Or maybe talking with the community or a small subset rather than just push ideas through that eventually get changed when they realize people are playing a certain class anymore and a large chunk of the population is just rerolling. How is that a good way to balance? Especially when they dont make balances changes outside of 6 month windows?

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

What does bow really offer over other weapons in the current meta of cyroblobs though other than sniping from stealth?

Nothing anymore? Great.

Now that poison will scale with weapon damage and spell damage, a little.
HR on the other hand was one of the main reasons people equipped a bow, much similar to people equipping a resto staff just for Healing Ward.

This is a terrible nerf.

Agreed, it helps, but again, its not enough to warrant it being on the bar for *type* of players that were using it. It was used for small/solo group play and it had a great purpose.

Really wish there was some level of communication from ZOS when it came to decisions of balance. Or maybe talking with the community or a small subset rather than just push ideas through that eventually get changed when they realize people are playing a certain class anymore and a large chunk of the population is just rerolling. How is that a good way to balance? Especially when they dont make balances changes outside of 6 month windows?

I wasn't that excited to read these patch notes because of this. Zos has their vision of the game and the community they are building it for, and if their changes don't fit with the game/community they have, oh well. Guess they want sorcs to stand still giving out hugs so they can get the most out of their new morph, and with volley getting a bonus duration I guess the game plan is sit still in a volley pool with thundering presence up.

It got nerfed because Sorcs BE got nerfed! I hate Sorcs!!

TheBull wrote: »

It got nerfed because Sorcs BE got nerfed! I hate Sorcs!!

You don't even use a bow you big troll

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Hasty Retreat (passive): This passive now grants the Major Expedition buff for 1 second/2 seconds instead of a 30% movement speed bonus.


So now this gives M.E. like Rapid Maneuvers, Double Take, Boundless Storm, and Quick Cloak. This makes no sense as the M.E. lasts 2 seconds and to keep it up you will blow your stam apart with 33% increase to consecutive rolls. I really don't understand why this had to be changed. A lot of people still chose not to use bow knowing HR stacked with M.E. granting abilities, so it wasn't exactly OP...


You guys are really trying hard to nerf mobility.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The whole point of the buff system was to prevent so many different types of the same bonus from stacking. It makes sense because it is consistent.

Yet we can still stack Empower, Major Brutality, and Minor Berserk for a super attack. You can still stack Empower, Major Sorcerery, and Minor Berserk for a super Magicka based attack. There are also other stackable similar buffs that are defensive and a few different ways to stack dodge, albeit with dimishing returns.

No, they are deliberately nerfing mobility. Bolt Escape and dodge rolling both got hit as well. This is the only thing consistent.

Perhaps you hit on something in that last sentence? I would see no problem changing the bow passive to grant minor expedition to keep consistency and still maintain the theme of retreating bow users, but straight stacking percentage bonuses are not in-line with how much of ESO combat play out.

Not sure how you can make that statement. I just showed you that % stacking is very much the part of ESO combat. Take regen, defensives, damage, etc. There is so much stacking through the CP alone to make such a claim is silly.

I can understand why you would want to get away from a system like this, sure, however it is a big part of combat already.

I can make that statement because buffs in ESO are generally not meant to stack and are built around the distinctions "major" and "minor." Yes empower + major + minor stack, but this is intended. DKs do not have their GDB stack with potions, Destruction Staff users do not have their debuffs stack with a tank's Puncture skill, and NBs doesn't have the Grim focus minor berserk stack with Combat Prayer. Many the flat % and numerical bonuses like that of Hasty Retreat were changed and incorporated into the major / minor buff system. This change is a continuation of that theme.

Yea - I get what youre saying too. It does make sense. The problem is the environment surrounding this doesnt make sense.

When cyro is ruled by 24 man groups choking out server stability, its really difficult to make a fair argument for everything working well and as intended.


Theyve nerfed dodge roll now. Blink isnt really that bad, fully specd magicka sorcs can still blink a lot, get the mana back, stack full into magicka and have survival/escape/damage in a great bundle. Somehow shield stacking isnt a problem even though there isnt a prayer for a stam sorc to kill a well played magicka sorc due solely to how shield stacking functions and the inability to crit/proc.


Now stam sorc cant spam blink, doesnt have shields, doesnt have a heal, and has dodge/bow speed being ripped out.

Guess we should just all wait for the inevitable cyroblobs to run us over or reroll to nightblade/magicka sorc.


But Im sure LoS checks will fix this.

You can also reroll into Templars, they are still good.

But yeah, pretty much this. Also the major/minor thing has glaring issues. Hasty Retreat did not have either tag and should have just got a minor. I mean FFS it's 2 seconds and linked to a dodge roll which can no longer be spammed. This is a hamfisted nerf.

Jakeol wrote: »

I'd rather see a minor expedition buff granted by roll dodging with a bow rather than major so it will stack with existing spells (major). Two seconds is too short though, it should be along the lines of a minimum of 5-6 seconds if it grants minor.

^^ This is exactly what needs to happen. It's completely ruins the passive, as everyone and their mother already gets Major Expedition from rapids or a class skill.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Hasty Retreat (passive): This passive now grants the Major Expedition buff for 1 second/2 seconds instead of a 30% movement speed bonus.


So now this gives M.E. like Rapid Maneuvers, Double Take, Boundless Storm, and Quick Cloak. This makes no sense as the M.E. lasts 2 seconds and to keep it up you will blow your stam apart with 33% increase to consecutive rolls. I really don't understand why this had to be changed. A lot of people still chose not to use bow knowing HR stacked with M.E. granting abilities, so it wasn't exactly OP...


You guys are really trying hard to nerf mobility.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The whole point of the buff system was to prevent so many different types of the same bonus from stacking. It makes sense because it is consistent.

Yet we can still stack Empower, Major Brutality, and Minor Berserk for a super attack. You can still stack Empower, Major Sorcerery, and Minor Berserk for a super Magicka based attack. There are also other stackable similar buffs that are defensive and a few different ways to stack dodge, albeit with dimishing returns.

No, they are deliberately nerfing mobility. Bolt Escape and dodge rolling both got hit as well. This is the only thing consistent.

Perhaps you hit on something in that last sentence? I would see no problem changing the bow passive to grant minor expedition to keep consistency and still maintain the theme of retreating bow users, but straight stacking percentage bonuses are not in-line with how much of ESO combat play out.

Not sure how you can make that statement. I just showed you that % stacking is very much the part of ESO combat. Take regen, defensives, damage, etc. There is so much stacking through the CP alone to make such a claim is silly.

I can understand why you would want to get away from a system like this, sure, however it is a big part of combat already.

I can make that statement because buffs in ESO are generally not meant to stack and are built around the distinctions "major" and "minor." Yes empower + major + minor stack, but this is intended. DKs do not have their GDB stack with potions, Destruction Staff users do not have their debuffs stack with a tank's Puncture skill, and NBs doesn't have the Grim focus minor berserk stack with Combat Prayer. Many the flat % and numerical bonuses like that of Hasty Retreat were changed and incorporated into the major / minor buff system. This change is a continuation of that theme.

Yea - I get what youre saying too. It does make sense. The problem is the environment surrounding this doesnt make sense.

When cyro is ruled by 24 man groups choking out server stability, its really difficult to make a fair argument for everything working well and as intended.


Theyve nerfed dodge roll now. Blink isnt really that bad, fully specd magicka sorcs can still blink a lot, get the mana back, stack full into magicka and have survival/escape/damage in a great bundle. Somehow shield stacking isnt a problem even though there isnt a prayer for a stam sorc to kill a well played magicka sorc due solely to how shield stacking functions and the inability to crit/proc.


Now stam sorc cant spam blink, doesnt have shields, doesnt have a heal, and has dodge/bow speed being ripped out.

Guess we should just all wait for the inevitable cyroblobs to run us over or reroll to nightblade/magicka sorc.


But Im sure LoS checks will fix this.

FENGRUSH - I can't say I disagree. If ZoS heeded what you have been saying for weeks - months - in all those threads about Zergs, Cyrodiil would be in a better place. I didn't say I agreed with the change, rather just noted the motivation behind it. It does seem as if ZoS wants to cut down on mobility overall. DKs and Temps might see some minor benefit from it as major expedition is 40% as opposed to the old 30%, but yeah bow using NBs and Sorcs will no longer have that as an option to outpace a group of pursuers with the same buff and that doesn't seem to fit the original intent of mobility afforded to these classes and bow users.

As I said before, if it were up to me I would have kept their original idea of bow users to be more mobile/faster and just incorporated it into their existing system. Then again, I would completely remove AOE caps for damage, limit the amount of people purge cleanses, and other assorted measures to chip away the way too large benefit groups have for just "stacking on crown."

So many have already rerolled NB/magicka sorc, not sure that exodus would have abated without serious consideration to what makes Zergs so strong and the weaknesses that solo templars and DKs have to deal with that have been exacerbated since 1.6.

And you are quite right about stam sorcs. Not sure what you'll do there. You are a tough opponent and I suppose you'll still do decently despite the handicap. I know I would like to read a post on your thoughts and ideas on the issues facing stam sorcs and suggestions as I find your comments insightful you have a knack for not missing the forest for the trees. ZoS needs inspiration here and perhaps you can give it to them.

I was very sad to see this Hasty Retreat nerf in the patch notes as well.

I remember a time, in June 2014, when I could ride on my horse through Grahtwood at max speed and it was so fast, it felt so great, was so much fun that, sometimes, I would just port to Grahtwood and ride through the forest at max speed for a few minutes and do nothing else. I had a Light Horse with maxed speed, Retreating Maneuver Rank IV, the Steed Mundus Stone bonus, the Grahtwood Tiger buff for 4% more speed, and I was wearing a full set of Medium Armor which back then still had a passive ability that increased speed as well. I remember how I had a feeling back then that this was too good, too much fun, too nice to be true, and I wasn't wrong.

A few patches later, the speed passive on Medium Armor had been replaced by another bonus and speed buffs had stopped working on mounts. There was a public outcry, especially from PvP players, because riding in Cyrodiil took so much longer now. So ZOS had to fix the bug for Rapid Maneuver and its morphs. Unfortunately, very few players ever noticed that all other speed buffs had stopped working on mounts as well, and that change was never reversed.

A lot later, with the introduction of Update 6, almost all speed buffs from skills stopped stacking. One of the few that could still grant you a temporary speed boost that did stack with all others: Hasty Retreat.

Now this is going as well.