Tanking has serious problems

eric22santiago_ESO · February 2015

ESO utilizes the trinity of classes in mmorpgs with the tank, healer, and damage dealer. Yet there are currently ZERO skill trees dedicated to tanking out of the 4 classes offered (1hs+shield is not a true tanking skill line imo but some Im sure would see it fit). There are **2** taunts in the universal skill lines which any class can get.

Healing not only has a good universal skill line for healing with the resto staff but also has an entire class skill line dedicated to it with the Templar's Restoring Light skill tree. Why do we have 4 classes to choose from all with 3 skill lines (total of 12 skill lines) for ONE of those to be dedicated to the healing aspect of the trinity and the remaining 11 dedicated to dps aspect of the trinity of course with the few odds and ends type of abilities that are not dps skills.

I say tanking has serious problems because I've tanked in most of the mmos ive played and ESO seems to not only have the least options when it comes to tanking which in turn gives less strategy to the tank but it's also the least fun i've had.

If you asked me I'd like to see a skill line from the DK that focused on invulns (possible ultimate), an intercept taunt for if a mob is on a healer or other player, an aoe taunt, a blocking taunt, a stun, and an unbreakable sleep (think mezzing like ability). Something to give the tank more options when tanking to make it more fun.

This all goes with saying that I can tank in current form and am in no way saying that tanking is impossible but I just want to have more fun with it and to be able to strategize better when in combat.

manny254 · February 2015

Well essentially two of the dk's skill lines are tanking oriented. Namely Earthen Heart and Draconic Power. For the most part both of these focus on staying alive and providing cc. Between both of these skill line only one power does not provide protection or cc.

Also you will probably never see an aoe taunt because that is not how tanking is intended in this game.

eric22santiago_ESO · February 2015

I agree about those skill lines focusing on staying alive and cc. But if the healer had abilities such as this for them to heal would you really call them a healer? Healers heal by DIRECTLY healing a player not by cc'n so you can avoid the mob and in turn take less damage and this is what makes a healer fun to play. Tanks should tank by DIRECTLY tanking. If a mob is on a player the tank should be able to intercept that mob and have it focus on him by some type of ability.

IMO cc is not tanking. If anything it's a very indirect way to tank. Instead of directly focusing my abilities on protecting you I'm going to snare, disorient, knock down, root, etc these mobs so you can protect yourself. If that's how ESO intends tanks to be then maybe I will never enjoy it which is a shame cuz the combat is a lot different than the standard tab-targeting in most mmos. In my eyes this is a design flaw if this is how ESO intends its tanks to be. Just my $.02

Lithium Flower · February 2015

A tank has a principal role of holding aggression. Since there are no threat tables, you are provided with a melee stamina taunt and a magicka ranged taunt (no magicka option in 1.6 anymore incidently). Keep taunt up properly on the enemy and they don't go after your group mates (except for certain specific mechanics).

Secondly, a tank ought to stay alive, DKs, NBs, Templars all have dedicated toolkits to perform this function.

Third, a tank should debuff the enemy and control the battle - there's options under the Sword and Shield skill line for this such as Low Slash and its morphs, Bash and it's morphs as well as options in class skill lines for most classes. There's options to shield allies from damage in the Fighter's Guild, Undaunted Guild skill lines such as Circle of Protection (drastically less usable in 1.6 unfortunately), and Bone Shield respectively. There is also Barrier and Siege Shield from the Alliance War Skill Lines as well as Caltrops for additional CC. Dragonknights also have Obsidian Shield (and it's morphs) and the Magma Shell (morph of Magma Armour) synergy.

The dropped set Beckoning Steel (5 piece) bonus gives you a 40% chance to interrupt projectiles for allies within 5m, and seems to fit the gap bothering the OP.

The only thing 'missing' from the options is the sometimes mentioned AoE taunt but I think tactical placement of taunts is what makes tanking in ESO interesting and should not be replaced with a 'fire and forget' mass taunt.

eric22santiago_ESO · February 2015

Lithium Flower wrote: »

A tank has a principal role of holding aggression. Since there are no threat tables, you are provided with a melee stamina taunt and a magicka ranged taunt (no magicka option in 1.6 anymore incidently). Keep taunt up properly on the enemy and they don't go after your group mates (except for certain specific mechanics).

Secondly, a tank ought to stay alive, DKs, NBs, Templars all have dedicated toolkits to perform this function.

Third, a tank should debuff the enemy and control the battle - there's options under the Sword and Shield skill line for this such as Low Slash and its morphs, Bash and it's morphs as well as options in class skill lines for most classes. There's options to shield allies from damage in the Fighter's Guild, Undaunted Guild skill lines such as Circle of Protection (drastically less usable in 1.6 unfortunately), and Bone Shield respectively. There is also Barrier and Siege Shield from the Alliance War Skill Lines as well as Caltrops for additional CC. Dragonknights also have Obsidian Shield (and it's morphs) and the Magma Shell (morph of Magma Armour) synergy.

The dropped set Beckoning Steel (5 piece) bonus gives you a 40% chance to interrupt projectiles for allies within 5m, and seems to fit the gap bothering the OP.

The only thing 'missing' from the options is the sometimes mentioned AoE taunt but I think tactical placement of taunts is what makes tanking in ESO interesting and should not be replaced with a 'fire and forget' mass taunt.

You pretty much agreed with me in your very first paragraph. The tank's principle role is to hold aggression and from what you tell me after 1.6 there will only be ONE ability to do that.

I originally had this HUGE response to your comment but I saw one flaw which would make everything easier to address. The tank's principle role is NOT to hold aggression. Its role is to make the healer's job easier. The best way to make the healer's job easy is if the tank is the sole group member taking all the damage.

CC'n does not direct the mob's attention to the tank so therefore it is not an efficient means to direct all the damage to the tank. Debuffing the enemy does not direct the mob's attention to the tank so therefore it is not an efficient means to direct all the damage to the tank. Therefore these abilities are not effective tanking abilities if they are the SOLE means of tanking...which they are.

manny254 · February 2015

eric22santiago_ESO wrote: »

Lithium Flower wrote: »

A tank has a principal role of holding aggression. Since there are no threat tables, you are provided with a melee stamina taunt and a magicka ranged taunt (no magicka option in 1.6 anymore incidently). Keep taunt up properly on the enemy and they don't go after your group mates (except for certain specific mechanics).

Secondly, a tank ought to stay alive, DKs, NBs, Templars all have dedicated toolkits to perform this function.

Third, a tank should debuff the enemy and control the battle - there's options under the Sword and Shield skill line for this such as Low Slash and its morphs, Bash and it's morphs as well as options in class skill lines for most classes. There's options to shield allies from damage in the Fighter's Guild, Undaunted Guild skill lines such as Circle of Protection (drastically less usable in 1.6 unfortunately), and Bone Shield respectively. There is also Barrier and Siege Shield from the Alliance War Skill Lines as well as Caltrops for additional CC. Dragonknights also have Obsidian Shield (and it's morphs) and the Magma Shell (morph of Magma Armour) synergy.

The dropped set Beckoning Steel (5 piece) bonus gives you a 40% chance to interrupt projectiles for allies within 5m, and seems to fit the gap bothering the OP.

The only thing 'missing' from the options is the sometimes mentioned AoE taunt but I think tactical placement of taunts is what makes tanking in ESO interesting and should not be replaced with a 'fire and forget' mass taunt.

You pretty much agreed with me in your very first paragraph. The tank's principle role is to hold aggression and from what you tell me after 1.6 there will only be ONE ability to do that.

I originally had this HUGE response to your comment but I saw one flaw which would make everything easier to address. The tank's principle role is NOT to hold aggression. Its role is to make the healer's job easier. The best way to make the healer's job easy is if the tank is the sole group member taking all the damage.

CC'n does not direct the mob's attention to the tank so therefore it is not an efficient means to direct all the damage to the tank. Debuffing the enemy does not direct the mob's attention to the tank so therefore it is not an efficient means to direct all the damage to the tank. Therefore these abilities are not effective tanking abilities if they are the SOLE means of tanking...which they are.

Short and sweet tanking in ESO is taunting the biggest mobs (not all mobs), and staying alive. The tank can not take all the damage for the group in this game. If you continue to expect or want this you will probably want to find another game.

Aett_Thorn · February 2015

I would also say that the majority of healing in this game is focused on the Tank not holding down everything, and damage being spread out a bit amongst the team. There are very few "single target" heals, and most heals are AoE and heals over time. I think this leads to the fact that most spawns are meant to have aggro spread out and not focuses on one target.

Until you get to the main bosses, there's little need to focus all of the aggro on you, and just cc the spawns to help mitigate damage to the team to slow the incoming damage a bit.

Pmarsico9 · February 2015

I think not having true aggro and threat modifiers built into the Sword and Shield skill line actually hurts the game and potential design.

Many will say "You just want tank and spanks."

But that couldn't be further from the truth. When the tank is expected to hold things 100% of the time, design opens up. Especially considering how terrible this game is for melee.

Kahrgan · February 2015

OP: not everything is going to be pointed out to you so you dont get confused about what abilities to use while tanking.

Toy with builds, see what works and doesnt work for yourself.

No need to change the entire game because you need a clear direction to head.

eric22santiago_ESO · February 2015

manny254 wrote: »

Short and sweet tanking in ESO is taunting the biggest mobs (not all mobs), and staying alive. The tank can not take all the damage for the group in this game. If you continue to expect or want this you will probably want to find another game.

I understand ESO has a specific vision for their tanks and I'm cool with it, it's just not for me. I'm disappointed because I really like ESO. My biggest problem with the game is the classes and character development and character progression. Which is a HUGE factor for me.

Trust me, I've been looking for a different game. Not a lot of good stuff going on in the mmorpg scene right now though. But I keep coming back to ESO because I want to like it. It has a lot going for it, it's just the classes and characters that bug me.

eric22santiago_ESO · February 2015

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

I would also say that the majority of healing in this game is focused on the Tank not holding down everything, and damage being spread out a bit amongst the team. There are very few "single target" heals, and most heals are AoE and heals over time. I think this leads to the fact that most spawns are meant to have aggro spread out and not focuses on one target.

I was unaware of this until you mentioned it. It makes more sense now why tanking in ESO is the way it is.

Preyfar · February 2015

I think there's a weird concept about any game where a tank can use a magical ability and instantly get everyone to target him and follow him around like a lost puppy. I actually like ESO's method of tanking because it gives more variety and meaning to the role. You're not a herder, just there to distract the biggest baddy out there.

I agree there needs to be more than one skill for taunting or pulling aggression, but I also like how the game handles tanks all the same.

Pmarsico9 · February 2015

Preyfar wrote: »

I think there's a weird concept about any game where a tank can use a magical ability and instantly get everyone to target him and follow him around like a lost puppy. I actually like ESO's method of tanking because it gives more variety and meaning to the role. You're not a herder, just there to distract the biggest baddy out there.

I agree there needs to be more than one skill for taunting or pulling aggression, but I also like how the game handles tanks all the same.

I don't because they can make it interesting by scripting AI behavior without a blanket applicator.

There are certain NPC abilities that do in fact ignore the taunt mechanic. But that's how you still make things like kiting or somebody's ability to block remain important.

Spending time on the details of encounters is important. It's a large reason why AA is such a failure as large group content. And a big reason why that healing, as it stands, has major issues in rewarding stacked group gameplay OR RENDERING 3 CLASSES COMPLETELY NON-VIABLE AS HEALERS.

Tanks having mitigation capped at 50% (still, even in 1.6) and not integrating threat manipulation and positioning as a more important mechanic are some things that they would do well to address.

PhatGrimReaper · February 2015

ESO is my first MMO, so I only know Tanking this way, but I'll throw my 10 cents in anyway....
There are four classes with 3 skill lines each.... There are three main roles.... Tank, Healer & DD.....
Am I the only person seeing a very straight forward way to allow each class to perform each role differently, but effectively?

Give each class a Damage, Healing and Tanky based Skill line... different enough to make it interesting, but effective enough to make each one viable.

Dagoth_Rac · February 2015

Lithium Flower wrote: »

A tank has a principal role of holding aggression. Since there are no threat tables, you are provided with a melee stamina taunt and a magicka ranged taunt (no magicka option in 1.6 anymore incidently). Keep taunt up properly on the enemy and they don't go after your group mates (except for certain specific mechanics).

There are still magicka taunts in 1.6. The melee taunt is stamina, the ranged taunt is magicka but one morph is stamina. Base skill and one morph remain magicka.

Note though that ranged taunt is now an enormous amount of magicka. Cost has been increased immensely and is now one of most expensive skills in entire game.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2015

1.6 is introducing an ability in the Alliance War Assault line that allows you to intercept projectiles for nearby allies:

Guard

This new ability will intercept all projectiles that are targeted at allies near you, and when toggled, will also drain your target’s stamina while active.
Mystic Guard (morph): Your allies gain the Minor Vitality buff.
Stalwart Guard (morph): Using this ability will slow your stamina drain.

This is definitely a step in the right direction. I think the problem is people don't experiment with tanking builds very much since everyone assumes DKs are the best and the even "difficult" PvE content can often be done without one. Hopefully 1.6 will change that with the nerfs to light armor and changes to class abilities. I have loved playing my Argonian NB tank, which takes the approach of maximizing healing received. It is very satisfying to surprise people with how effective my build can be

Athas24 · February 2015

Tanking with no agro table just ticks me off. *grumbles* Outside of that, I'm good. lol.

Artis · February 2015

AoE taunt is not possible in the game that has no cooldowns. If they ever add it - it will make single target taunt useless and tanking easy.

Also, I disagree that a tank can't hold agro on all the mobs. I actually do that, taunting them one by one. However, you shouldn't expect a tank to do that, because it's impossible to renew the taunt on all the targets, so be ready to block/dodge. In addition, most of the mobs deal kinda low damage and you should be able to survive it until they die - most of them should die fast.

Hamrammur · February 2015

Since taunt seems unpredictable, being able to see target's target would help allot, for example when tanking two bosses at the same time but in two different locations.

PhatGrimReaper · February 2015

Artemis wrote: »

AoE taunt is not possible in the game that has no cooldowns. If they ever add it - it will make single target taunt useless and tanking easy.

I disagree...
An AoE Taunt Ultimate costing 300+ to use that has medium range, 5 second duration and deals no damage would offer an option that doesn't unballance the game in any way.
I point to the fact that the Tanking role is the only one of the three main roles not to have a role specific AoE ability... There is plenty of AoE damage and heals in the game, but no AoE taunt... not even a bad one. We don't want cooldowns and we don't want to ruin tanking by making it too easy, an ultimate that has to be built up Over time is perfect.
Ultimate can be tough to generate consistantly as a Tank, so you won't be dropping it on every pull. It will require the player to be smart about where and when they use it.
The Undaunted skill line still has no Ult and is plagued with some pretty average abilities at this point... maybe this is the Ult we've been waiting for?