Alliance War 10 Grind Completely Unreasonable

WebBull · February 2015

It would go a long way in helping increase AP gain if they extended D ticks to cover the resources. So many players miss AP D ticks because they are chasing the enemy back and move out of range.

Also, this whole new alliance skill line is likely a setup for AP gain potions in the Crown Shop.

TheBull · February 2015

yodased wrote: »

No I am not calling for a change to it, I think that if the developers feel that the skill needs to be ground out I will grind it out. I may not be happy about it, but it is what it is.

Check my post history, I don't call for changes to anything I don't have control over.(which is exactly 0 things) If I didn't want it I wouldn't do it.

I can empathize with people that are upset, doesn't mean I agree with them or disagree with you!

Awesome man. I apologize. I was reading the thread and just picked you. I was wrong. Take care.

reften · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

thx @yodased‌... this allowed me to graph it quickly. You can see how the XP gets crazy high for higher ranks.

This is how leveling in every MMO works...

yodased · February 2015

@thebull

I appreciate that. I think alot of people are upset over this for reasons deeper than the time it takes to get the skill to be honest.

My personal opinion incoming:

PvP isn't fun for a lot of people, especially in the doldrums of mid-level. You get zerged, ganked, teabagged and shouted at by your own factions, see all kinds of in-fighting and there aren't many people to help.

This causes a separation that already existed simply from peoples mindsets to be widened by experience. A LOT of PvE people will NOT be ready for the experience that Cyrodil is.

The 'carebears' that flood into cyrodil for the chance to get the new shiny gear are the same that flood into cyrodil when the buff servers are threatened. I honestly do not see them sticking around for any length of time to get a skill they may need to make their build better.

What does this mean? It just makes PvE people hate PvP even more and allows the unscrupulous pvp folks to literally shoot ahead by farming the 'bads' that will come into PvP for a short amount of time.

If they lowered the gate to get the reward it would allow more people to 'tough it out' because its an 'attainable' goal for them.

This also would diminish the amount of time and effort that anyone who is already rank 10 (level 24) so I can understand the need to keep it where it's at now.

The end goal I think should make long time PvP players get rewarded in a meaningful way, but also inspire new folks to get into the campaign and earn the right to use a great skill.

Currently, I don't know if the 'extreme' amount of time needed will do that.

/personal opinion.

WebBull · February 2015

oren74 wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

thx @yodased‌... this allowed me to graph it quickly. You can see how the XP gets crazy high for higher ranks.

This is how leveling in every MMO works...

Except XP gained usually increases per kill as you gain levels. Not so in AP ranks. XP per kill is flat.

Xeniph · February 2015

I agree with the OP.

My feelings aside, I firmly believe TTK is so low in 1.6 that having as many people in your Alliance as possible with this skill would help to mitigate this.

Anything that elongates battles and makes them a bit more dynamic, would seem to be a good thing. ( Except endless FC's

)

I'd like to see the skill moved to say... First Sergeant ish rank. Personally I don't enjoy killing folks I know don't have their full tool kit, owning "noobs" just isn't all that impressive to me.

I suspect a lot of these folks that are adamant about it being "Fine" as is, would not be happy if a lot of these skills were spread more evenly throughout to 50 ranks. One skill per 10 levels. There would be a massive uproar, I think.

Sacadon · February 2015

WebBull wrote: »

It would go a long way in helping increase AP gain if they extended D ticks to cover the resources. So many players miss AP D ticks because they are chasing the enemy back and move out of range.

Also, this whole new alliance skill line is likely a setup for AP gain potions in the Crown Shop.

Yup and those who wait for the tick often miss a tactical advantage. This IMO definitely needs change.

Armitas · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

It would go a long way in helping increase AP gain if they extended D ticks to cover the resources. So many players miss AP D ticks because they are chasing the enemy back and move out of range.

Also, this whole new alliance skill line is likely a setup for AP gain potions in the Crown Shop.

Yup and those who wait for the tick often miss a tactical advantage. This IMO definitely needs change.

Yeah they need to extend the keep D.tick circle to cover the resources. That way you can sweep the resources just after a successful keep defense without losing your reward.

kojou · February 2015

I am currently a lowly Corporal and will get to this rank eventually, but I think it is funny that a skill that we don't have today is vital and must be available immediately.

I play a NB Stamina build in PvP so I consider this skill very useful, but I survive today without it, and I will continue to survive, although at a technical disadvantage to DK's and Templars who have class self heals, but I still manage to get kills.

IMO rather than change the rank of when I get skills in the Alliance skill trees I would prefer just getting Alliance points faster and get better rewards (i.e. just give me gold, soul gems, and set pieces not worthless junk that I have to sell at a vendor).

Weberda · February 2015

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I am currently a lowly Corporal and will get to this rank eventually, but I think it is funny that a skill that we don't have today is vital and must be available immediately.

I play a NB Stamina build in PvP so I consider this skill very useful, but I survive today without it, and I will continue to survive, although at a technical disadvantage to DK's and Templars who have class self heals, but I still manage to get kills.

IMO rather than change the rank of when I get skills in the Alliance skill trees I would prefer just getting Alliance points faster and get better rewards (i.e. just give me gold, soul gems, and set pieces not worthless junk that I have to sell at a vendor).

Your post makes too much sense and has too much validity since it comes from a stamina-build character. You must be new here. Welcome.

technohic · February 2015

Doesn't every class have a self heal of some sort? (except maybe sorc) maybe they should have been offered stamina versions of those and then leave vigor alone where it is for something to work for.

Suntzu1414 · February 2015

Weberda wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I am currently a lowly Corporal and will get to this rank eventually, but I think it is funny that a skill that we don't have today is vital and must be available immediately.

I play a NB Stamina build in PvP so I consider this skill very useful, but I survive today without it, and I will continue to survive, although at a technical disadvantage to DK's and Templars who have class self heals, but I still manage to get kills.

IMO rather than change the rank of when I get skills in the Alliance skill trees I would prefer just getting Alliance points faster and get better rewards (i.e. just give me gold, soul gems, and set pieces not worthless junk that I have to sell at a vendor).

Your post makes too much sense and has too much validity since it comes from a stamina-build character. You must be new here. Welcome.

brilliant! absolutely brilliant!

Kill Well
ST

Snit · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

Yup and those who wait for the tick often miss a tactical advantage. This IMO definitely needs change.

Cyrodiil often forces you to choose between earning (more) AP and attacking objectives in a tactically sound manner. It's not my favorite part of the design.

All_Bizniz · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

It is not reasonable. If you have more than one character it is absolutely absurd. No one is complaining about not reaching pvp rank 50. They are complaining that a skill that may be very useful to many builds requires what would feel unobtainable to a casual solo player.

It is not about minimal effort or wanting instant gratification. Nothing about this makes sense and I would love to see how many of the devs who arbitrarily set the requirements for skill have a character at alliance war rank 10.

Exactly Manny. My main is Rank 32 in Alliance War, if getting Vigor means getting to rank 24 on another character to unlock war rank 10 abilities, its essentially impossible and I will never make an alt.

I have 2 alliance rank 24+ characters. It's not hard at all. The first one took alittle longer because the game was new and no one really knew what they were doing. But when my guild changed faction the second one took 2 months. Here's how: step 1: find a group. step 2: Play with group. step 3: turn in quests. sorry kid.... not short cuts here....you have to earn it to learn it. Like EVERY GAME EVER.... smh*

Sacadon · February 2015

Just making sure all knows of the almost exact discussion going on here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151705/vigor-new-ava-skill-in-1-6#latest

Phaedrus · February 2015

This thread makes me laugh and cringe at the same time. Alliance Rank 24 is seriously not that hard to obtain. It's like 8 million AP I think which is not all that much.

Furthermore, what (besides Skill Points) is there to look forward to past Alliance Rank 24? Absolutely nothing, a fancy new title and some dyes (legate black is pretty sweet though)

Buck up, go PvP you might actually learn a lot about your character/build to help you overall.

If anything I wish the requirement was higher. The old push to rank 24 was to obtain Combat Frenzy II. Now you get that and the two new skills at the same time, after which there is nothing more to unlock.

I know I'm probably the minority in this and play in one of the upper tier PvP guilds a lot but seriously so much whining in this thread.

Sacadon · February 2015

oren74 wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

thx @yodased‌... this allowed me to graph it quickly. You can see how the XP gets crazy high for higher ranks.

This is how leveling in every MMO works...

Hmm. So just because every MMO prior to ESO did this it means that it's the right approach for ESO? I'm not one of those it works so don't fix it types.

However, we sure have a lot of other higher priority problems such as lag and broken skills, so I can get behind that line of thinking, at least for now.

Also, I'm no expert on MMO progression and all that it entails. So I'm not even trying to weigh-in on anything more than there needs to be more incentives in place for the higher up ranks than a new armor dye and title. Specifically to attract more players that require that. I'll be PVP-ing regardless. I just want to be sure the game continues to attract players, so that I can continue to play.

glentcb14_ESO · February 2015

I'm sure they'll offer a crown store unlock for all your needs.

Phaedrus · February 2015

yodased wrote: »

comparing undaunted to alliance war is a strawman at best. They are completely different and undaunted for a new player is completely do-able within a manageable amount of time.

I get it, you are mad you had to do dungeons to get into the undaunted passives, but they are not the same.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out undaunted in less than 2 weeks. (I have personally done it 3 times now on 3 alts). It took me longer to get my main on it since I was at rank 5 when they introduced the passives and no retroactive so meh.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out alliance war in by the most possible way (25k per hour is what i have seen here) and that is still 12 full days. So take into account that MOST people play the game 2-4 hours a session and you get 72 days to get to rank 24. Thats at 25,000 AP PER HOUR played @ 4 hours a day.

Extrapolate that out to more reasonable time that people get about 10k per and you can see they are completely different.

It's honestly whatever to me, I am going to go pvp my little butt off to get to the level I want to be, but I understand why people are upset/confused/angry about the situation.

I have gained 1 Million AP in a day, granted that was an extraordinary day but it does happen. I know as a goal for myself when I play PvP I try to get 250k AP at least and can usually exceed that especially if populations are locked across the board.

Given the 250k AP per session goal it would take approx 28 days of grinding to reach Rank 24, and there will be days that are easily double that AP gain. That's starting from 0 which if you really are at 0 then sorry you have no reason to complain for wanting PvP skills having never actually PvP'ed.

WebBull · February 2015

Let's not forget that many of the higher alliance ranked players had "faster" ways to gain AP then are available in the game today.

Also, the removal of forward camps has also slowed AP growth due to more down time.

Iggybot · February 2015

Phaedrus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

comparing undaunted to alliance war is a strawman at best. They are completely different and undaunted for a new player is completely do-able within a manageable amount of time.

I get it, you are mad you had to do dungeons to get into the undaunted passives, but they are not the same.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out undaunted in less than 2 weeks. (I have personally done it 3 times now on 3 alts). It took me longer to get my main on it since I was at rank 5 when they introduced the passives and no retroactive so meh.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out alliance war in by the most possible way (25k per hour is what i have seen here) and that is still 12 full days. So take into account that MOST people play the game 2-4 hours a session and you get 72 days to get to rank 24. Thats at 25,000 AP PER HOUR played @ 4 hours a day.

Extrapolate that out to more reasonable time that people get about 10k per and you can see they are completely different.

It's honestly whatever to me, I am going to go pvp my little butt off to get to the level I want to be, but I understand why people are upset/confused/angry about the situation.

I have gained 1 Million AP in a day, granted that was an extraordinary day but it does happen. I know as a goal for myself when I play PvP I try to get 250k AP at least and can usually exceed that especially if populations are locked across the board.

Given the 250k AP per session goal it would take approx 28 days of grinding to reach Rank 24, and there will be days that are easily double that AP gain. That's starting from 0 which if you really are at 0 then sorry you have no reason to complain for wanting PvP skills having never actually PvP'ed.

I average about 10k per hour and I stay in the top 20 when the campaign resets as long as I'm playing. Maybe this is the norm for top EP AP farmers, but not the average player.

All_Bizniz · February 2015

Iggybot wrote: »

Phaedrus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

comparing undaunted to alliance war is a strawman at best. They are completely different and undaunted for a new player is completely do-able within a manageable amount of time.

I get it, you are mad you had to do dungeons to get into the undaunted passives, but they are not the same.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out undaunted in less than 2 weeks. (I have personally done it 3 times now on 3 alts). It took me longer to get my main on it since I was at rank 5 when they introduced the passives and no retroactive so meh.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out alliance war in by the most possible way (25k per hour is what i have seen here) and that is still 12 full days. So take into account that MOST people play the game 2-4 hours a session and you get 72 days to get to rank 24. Thats at 25,000 AP PER HOUR played @ 4 hours a day.

Extrapolate that out to more reasonable time that people get about 10k per and you can see they are completely different.

It's honestly whatever to me, I am going to go pvp my little butt off to get to the level I want to be, but I understand why people are upset/confused/angry about the situation.

I have gained 1 Million AP in a day, granted that was an extraordinary day but it does happen. I know as a goal for myself when I play PvP I try to get 250k AP at least and can usually exceed that especially if populations are locked across the board.

Given the 250k AP per session goal it would take approx 28 days of grinding to reach Rank 24, and there will be days that are easily double that AP gain. That's starting from 0 which if you really are at 0 then sorry you have no reason to complain for wanting PvP skills having never actually PvP'ed.

I average about 10k per hour and I stay in the top 20 when the campaign resets as long as I'm playing. Maybe this is the norm for top EP AP farmers, but not the average player.

I've seen you play.... ganking alone and getting rolled.... so um yea... you're not top anything pvp mr bot

yodased · February 2015

Phaedrus wrote: »

words!

Confusion Abounds

Asgari · February 2015

Iggybot wrote: »

Phaedrus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

comparing undaunted to alliance war is a strawman at best. They are completely different and undaunted for a new player is completely do-able within a manageable amount of time.

I get it, you are mad you had to do dungeons to get into the undaunted passives, but they are not the same.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out undaunted in less than 2 weeks. (I have personally done it 3 times now on 3 alts). It took me longer to get my main on it since I was at rank 5 when they introduced the passives and no retroactive so meh.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out alliance war in by the most possible way (25k per hour is what i have seen here) and that is still 12 full days. So take into account that MOST people play the game 2-4 hours a session and you get 72 days to get to rank 24. Thats at 25,000 AP PER HOUR played @ 4 hours a day.

Extrapolate that out to more reasonable time that people get about 10k per and you can see they are completely different.

It's honestly whatever to me, I am going to go pvp my little butt off to get to the level I want to be, but I understand why people are upset/confused/angry about the situation.

I have gained 1 Million AP in a day, granted that was an extraordinary day but it does happen. I know as a goal for myself when I play PvP I try to get 250k AP at least and can usually exceed that especially if populations are locked across the board.

Given the 250k AP per session goal it would take approx 28 days of grinding to reach Rank 24, and there will be days that are easily double that AP gain. That's starting from 0 which if you really are at 0 then sorry you have no reason to complain for wanting PvP skills having never actually PvP'ed.

I average about 10k per hour and I stay in the top 20 when the campaign resets as long as I'm playing. Maybe this is the norm for top EP AP farmers, but not the average player.

10k ap per hour is horrible ap gain.

Recremen · February 2015

TheBull wrote: »

Honestly man your argument is what's wrong with mmorpg gamers today. You want it all, but don't want to invest to get it. People who pose arguments like yours are why the entire mmorpg experience has been cheapened.

You don't want to invest, you don't deserve it. It's as simple as that. It's a choice you have made.

Just to be sure I understand your argument, would your position be the same if it was only unlocked at Alliance Rank 50? What if it were that, and they also doubled the amount of AP needed to achieve that rank?

I'm going to assume that you're a rational person and realize this is an issue related to the scale of investment, and that your pedantic shaming of other players for disagreeing with you is just a misguided attempt at social engineering. The point is that, by observing features already in the game, we can (and have!) made assumptions about the core design principles. Notably, people who would like to see these requirements lowered have observed multiple alt-friendly systems in place (The Champion System, universal dye unlocks, account-wide-and-faction-unspecific bank, bind-to-account gear). They then make the assumption that ESO is an alt-friendly game, and find this time sink incongruous with that assumption.

You do know that the time required (or time-derived-from-AP-genration-rates) is arbitrary, right? If they had decided that everything was unlocked at Alliance Rank 1, would you not protest that it's an insufficient investment of time for the reward?

Clearly the time scale of rewards in PVP is a different beast from any other system in the game (leveling, all other skill lines, questing, finding all the lorebooks and skyshards, etc.), and I actually like that design choice, considering that some of the most important rewards (dyes) are unlocked account-wide. Titles aren't, but I don't know how many people really care about that, considering you can just call your character Sergeant Major General III. Even the rank-gated skill system seem fair to me, at least in principle, because you are likely to gain at least a few ranks in PvP regardless of how bad you are at it just by grouping. Why, though, would they make the general gameplay parts of the Alliance War skill lines into a time sink several orders of magnitude greater than most other skill lines? It makes decent enough sense to lock the passives behind a high rank wall because none of them are relevant in other parts of the game, nor are they Nirn-shatteringly broken. Heck, for all I care we should throw in some more! The skills, though are relevant to all parts of the game, even the poor maligned RPers (siege shield is a favorite of many mage characters). It would seem more in line with the general design to have these things be a little easier to unlock, though still requiring an equitable investment of time.