The Champion System Will Create A GREATER Gap Between Incoming/Experienced Players

Glory · February 2015

After testing the difference between having no (or 70) champion points and a full 3600 points, many players have come to the conclusion that this new system will create even greater divides between players.

As the game stands on live, a new V14 can (expensively) gear himself/herself and be able to achieve comparable levels of success to an experienced V14 character.

With the champion system, a new player will be extremely far behind players who have considerable time investment in the game. This gap cannot be closed, as the Champion System is largely about time investment even after reaching level 50. While the curve is favored to help new players, someone who has completed the champion system will laugh at new players.

Not necessarily saying this is a bad thing (although I am concerned), just pointing out that if ZoS thought that the Champion System was going to decrease the player gap, it is in fact going to monumentally increase it.

Robbmrp · February 2015

^^^ What they said....

OtarTheMad · February 2015

I can see this being a slight issue. I work during the week so I'm going to be behind a lot of people... since I only really play weekends at the moment. We'll see.

Xeniph · February 2015

I called that 2 months ago, when their reason for such low cp's for V14's compared to fresh V1 were the same and that was the excuse they used.

What I don't get is they say "We're removing vet ranks due to feedback" the feedback being people felt it was too much of a grind.

For a system that's 400 times the exp to cap out, than it is to get V14.

Example-

10cp= 4mill exp @400k per point.

Another prospective? Grinding the 14 Mill exp to get to V14 will net you a whopping 35 CP after this goes live, assuming you're not rested (enlightnened)

I personally prefer the Vet ranks to max level.

Snit · February 2015

Is that a revelation? It's skill points, enough to literally spend years grinding. Of course it differentiates new players from old.

dharbert · February 2015

Brand new players aren't supposed to be on par with players that have months or years of experience, skills, and gear. Working as intended.

OtarTheMad · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Brand new players aren't supposed to be on par with players that have months or years of experience, skills, and gear. Working as intended.

I agree but at the same time the same could be said for experienced players who work a lot or whatever that keeps them away. Kind of rewards players who don't sleep but we'll see... too early to tell how much a difference this is... especially with Enlightened.

Glory · February 2015

OtarTheMad wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Brand new players aren't supposed to be on par with players that have months or years of experience, skills, and gear. Working as intended.

I agree but at the same time the same could be said for experienced players who work a lot or whatever that keeps them away. Kind of rewards players who don't sleep but we'll see... too early to tell how much a difference this is... especially with Enlightened.

The 3600 points really showed how big of a difference the progression makes. A player with 0 points is at a HUGE disadvantage against a player with more points.

The balance is already getting wonky with removal of softcaps, and the champion point division is going to make it even worse.

technohic · February 2015

Yeah I will have to agree that for all the hate I had for the VR levels, I think champion points are worse. With VR levels and otherwise traditional MMO levels; they usually cap for a period of time that allows newer or just slower players a chance to catch up before once again raising the cap. Its still a carrot on a stick but at least every once in a while, you catch the freaking carrot.

Joejudas · February 2015

A couple of us have pointed this out repeated for weeks and keep getting laughed at. It's a p2w storm brewing with this system

Snit · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

A couple of us have pointed this out repeated for weeks and keep getting laughed at. It's a p2w storm brewing with this system

I don't see how CP's are P2W, unless the 'p' stands for 'play (a lot, a whole lot).'

DeLindsay · February 2015

While they're at it they should remove ALL Trial Gear from the game, and Alliance Ranks too and just give everyone a free set of VR14 Legendary gear the instant they hit LvL 50 so we make sure everyone is as equal as possible. We wouldn't want Players with months/years of hard work to be superior to 1day old noobs now would we. In fact, they should just get rid of Classes too and remove all but the 5 FOTM Abilities and the 2-3 FOTM Ultimates, that way we can all be the exact same. /sarcasm

Nihil · February 2015

They never said that there would not be an advantage to having higher CP, what they stated was that they wanted the divide to not seem so expansive that new players couldn't catch up. While the difference of basically 0 CP and max CP is drastic, a new player will not need to grind out even close to half to feel competitive to a player who might be at full. Yes 3.6k champion points is a lot stronger then 0, but how much stronger is it then 1k champion points that are completely dedicated to stats that are most helpful to them? And how does that compare to 500 champion points picked to get the most per point for their build?

While I do think some balancing of exp is needed, and that some passives are way stronger then others (12 % crit chance). Looking at the beginning and end with out considering what can be done part way through the system is just adding to the fire burning under everyone right now.

Faugaun · February 2015

Ring o Mara + sub + PvP buff = +25% exp + crown store items for unlimited enlightenment..woohoo I'll be epic!

ZRage · February 2015

I just got to PvP with Nightblade, which is considered "weak class" now, compared to let's say perma proj. reflection - block - auto heal DK's. Playing in Cyrodil for few hours a day I'm able to keep up in top 10 ranks (this 7 day campaigns). I'm talking fresh account new character VR 1-9 experience here, so definetly it's not impossible to play. Yet when you see everybody like 90%+ of the people running VR 14 templates with nearly 4k hp it's quite annoying, you know pretty much any engagement into duel will end just bad :>

+

I agree that already the amount of advantage (gap) is quite huge actually.

I like the champion system idea, because it's just another progression system, however other things could be tuned up a bit TO ENCOURAGE people into PvP.

There is just too many things that make difference like:

- Horse wall insane
This is probably the biggest pain, Cyrodil is much (a bit too much) about running, not only when you are lower level you die more often. It also takes more time to get back on the battlefield or get back into the play at all. It's just quite incredibly frustrating. There is absolutely no solution to this because you have to feed this horse for months ...
- Mages guild 10
Speaks for itself if you are a caster this gives you an edge and it's time consuming to get all this books.
-Item advantage (level requirements for Veteran Ranked items)
(i'd prefer to just scrap veteran ranks requirement from items (at least some items like accessory lets say) and instead make the economy figure it out itself, increasing rarity / craft cost of current VR 14 items). Therefore people who like the way of going all-in into economy play / farming like crazy could close gap faster. To be honest it already make no sense to change gear every single veteran rank, people skip this anyway and they just power grind till VR14.
- PvP skills
This also require quite a lot of grind and gives quite a bit of bonuses
- Character stats tuned to max :>

The difference is quite hilarious, and like I said I'm fine with it since I know I will close the gap sooner or later. Anyway most people can't stand this and probably that's the reason why I only see VR 14 people in cyrodil >.<

I just think low level people or just guys who have less time to play should get some bonus to at least encourage them into PvP, make it feel like it's worth playing it.Because right now there is completely no reason to go PvP unless you are geared or high VR.

Kragorn · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Brand new players aren't supposed to be on par with players that have months or years of experience, skills, and gear. Working as intended.

It may be WAI but the I is plain ridiculous.

I totally agree that a newb VRn isn't going to be as powerful as a veteran VRn with a shedload of CPs, BUT, if the disparity is so vast as the numbers show many newbs will simply give up as they'll NEVER get to be competitive with the 'vets'; and by 'competitive' I mean in PVE (I don't care about PVP, that's the reason the PVE side of the game is being steadily destroyed by the 1.6 nerf-fest.

End-gamers are notorious elitists and post-1.6 we'll have a Gearscore-like segregation of the newbs and the vets where the vets demand a level of CPs before allowing the newbs to join then .. if the gap is as large as it seems likely to be right now then the newbs will take months to 'catch' up, but they won't because in the time the 'vets' have piled on more CPs.

This was what ZOS were trying to avoid when they came out with their 30 CP plan. Having been shouted down by the 'vets' they revised it and in doing so lost sight of what they were trying to achieve, now we'll see happen what ZOS wanted to avoid, and it won't be pretty as far as the 'vets' are concerned when VR+ becomes more of a desert than it currently is.

Snit · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

This was what ZOS were trying to avoid when they came out with their 30 CP plan.

It's 30 points, or 70 points out of 3,600. In the grand scheme, it's a tiny head start.

McDoogs · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

This was what ZOS were trying to avoid when they came out with their 30 CP plan.

It's 30 points, or 70 points out of 3,600. In the grand scheme, it's a tiny head start.

The first 70 points are nothing, but if 1.6 releases let's say 3 week before 'tamriel unlimited' those 70 CP will be more like 200ish for the hardcore. Even the new hardcore ESO loving players will hit vet level with 0 CP and be at a huge disadvantage, with an incredibly steep grind ahead of them, with very little chance of ever catching up. It will be even worse when the vanguard passes the 360ish CP level (and start getting the 120 constellation bonuses they want) for new players. Especially if instances and PvP (aka the fun stuff) continue to be terrible ways to gain CP.

Charadras · February 2015

Just reduce the max number of cp an account can achieve. 1800 For example so everyone have to think how use this Point and what role occupied. More end game build and more theorycrafting.

GaldorP · February 2015

Every MMOG runs into that problem when new content is added a while after the game's initial release:
Either the gap between new players and veterans is widened or all previous content has to be made a lot easier and faster to achieve (and thus becomes less relevant in the game).
Everyone, veterans and new players, will be forced into a new grind when the new content is released to be at the top, again. That's the normal course of an MMOG and it's healthy for the community because it keeps people playing as long as the new grinds and devaluation of previous achievements are not too extreme and do not happen too often (once or twice per year seems to be a good rate for major updates that introduce new tiers/grinds; a new max level cap added every 1-2 months, however, will frustrate people).

So, I don't see a problem in the fact that it takes A LONG time to get the maximum number of Champion Points in Update 6 but I see several major design flaws in the Champion System:

In the end, a single character can max every single champion ability there is in the game, so there's no CHOICE anymore, a single character can be the best at everything (so this system in the end will not add to build diversity at all).
The difference in strength between a 0 CP character and a 3'600 CP character is too large, given that it will probably take several months of pure game time to obtain 3600 CP. It's reasonable to assume that only a very small percentage of the player base will ever get close to 3'600 CP given that there seems to be no content that makes it easy or is intended for the purpose of gaining Champion Point exp at a reasonable rate, content that players can engage in for several hours per day to gain Champion Points.
The big difference in character strength will be especially detrimental for PvP balance and would force PvP players into a PvE grind of several months of pure gametime to stay at the top. The Champion Abilties should either not work in PvP at all or the difference in strength should be a lot smaller.
I feel there is a distinct lack of a concept as to how people are supposed to gain Champion Point exp. Many players have one or several VR 14 characters already and will try to get as many Champion Points as possible when 1.6. is released. I don't feel like there is any specific content that supports grinding for exp. This will very likely lead to some zones being badly over-crowded and/or a small minority of players finding an incredibly good grinding spot and possibly an exploit to outlevel everyone else. I understand the idea that it's supposed to take a while to get Champion Points and that people should just continue to play the game as they did before and will eventually gain a few hundred Champion Points (at a rate of maybe 1-2 per day), but I'm sure a good part of the playerbase will try to grind for those Champion Points at a faster rate just as a good part of the playerbase leveled exclusively by Craglorn boss grinding (and exploits) while that was possible. There needs to be a concept for people who play ESO for more than 1-2 hours per day and have already completed all their quests as well.
There is no content in the game designed for characters with a good amount of Champion Points.

Frenkthevile · February 2015

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

After testing the difference between having no (or 70) champion points and a full 3600 points, many players have come to the conclusion that this new system will create even greater divides between players.

As the game stands on live, a new V14 can (expensively) gear himself/herself and be able to achieve comparable levels of success to an experienced V14 character.

With the champion system, a new player will be extremely far behind players who have considerable time investment in the game. This gap cannot be closed, as the Champion System is largely about time investment even after reaching level 50. While the curve is favored to help new players, someone who has completed the champion system will laugh at new players.

Not necessarily saying this is a bad thing (although I am concerned), just pointing out that if ZoS thought that the Champion System was going to decrease the player gap, it is in fact going to monumentally increase it.

Go play GW2 if you want the game where ''casuals'' are like Pro.
In an MMO vertical progression is necessary, and if it's a vertical progression made from new content and not grind, i say WELCOME. It will make also PvP more fun, having 10 pple vs 5 isn't an automatic victory, if the 5 plle group is made of veterans. So, again, long live the new Champ system.

Francescolg · February 2015

ZRage wrote: »

however other things could be tuned up a bit TO ENCOURAGE people into PvP.

They should greatly increase the chances to do CP in PvP, especially when doing successfull pvp. NBs will benefit the most out of pro-stamina build changes, DK wills also still benefit from no-immunity-generating/spammable root (talons) and their 50% UP banner

bowmanz607 · February 2015

Imo a new lvl 50 should not be as strong as one who has been playing for a year. No way. There should be a gap. That's how the world works. If someone puts more time into something then ya they should have more to show for it then a new person. I wouldn't want to play a game that I have been busting my tail playing for a year to let a new person who grinds to lvl 50 be on par or not far away. Doesn't make since.

technohic · February 2015

Did you guys see the road ahead? Basically sub for the bonus and get the XP potions in the crown store and you'll be on your way.

baratron · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Brand new players aren't supposed to be on par with players that have months or years of experience, skills, and gear. Working as intended.

Absolutely, but my Level 4 newbie already has a terrific advantage over genuine newbies given that I can afford to outfit her with green equipment from a set (since Hemming and Pitch is so cheap now that I can afford to throw it away on a newbie). The fact that she will start Update 6 with as many Champion Points as my V11, V7, and V2 characters will make the gap even larger once I actually start levelling her.

Meanwhile, people who have one V14 character and don't want to make alts are struggling to find ways to get Champion Points. (Their opinion, not mine.)

Alphashado · February 2015

I usually don't subscribe to conspiracy theories. However, a LOT of evidence is starting to pile up supporting the theory that ZoS is intentionally creating this gap, just to cash in on it.

1. Postponing phase 4, therefore leaving Vet Ranks in place for console launch even though the VR grind is BY FAR the most criticized function of the game.
2. Stacking the Champion System ON TOP of the VR system. Now we have TWO grinds that require a ton of XP.
3. Switching to B2P
4. Then selling XP boosts in the cash store.

I hate to say it, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then odds are it's a freakin duck.