With No Softcaps: Hybrids Are Weak And Putting Everything Into One Attribute Is Strong

Locke_ESO · February 2015

Uncapped stats was always going to be an issue with the current setup especially when it comes to abilities or gear that stack +stat % improvements.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this topic yet is what it is going to do to racial viability. You can pretty much guarantee the most popular races are going to be the ones with big % increases to stamina, hp or magicka. There are some races that have become such clear winners for certain classes (Altmer for Sorcerer for example) that it's almost ridiculous. Personally I'm not keen to see Elder Scrolls Online PvP turn into a battle between 3 groups consisting almost entirely of Altmer, Imperials and Bretons

leandro.800ub17_ESO · February 2015

I actually agree with no caps
Of course you are going to be 1 shooted if u don't put nothing in health and only use max stam or magica.

Dredlord · February 2015

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

I actually agree with no caps
Of course you are going to be 1 shooted if u don't put nothing in health and only use max stam or magica.

if only that were true, it's obvious you haven't played on test.

full magica/stam builds with insane damage still have amazing survivability ex. sorc magica build/templar stam build.

Health builds have great survivability yet miserable damage which doesn't fit with the above. Give up all your damage for moderately more survivability.

I'm all for Min/maxing but this is max/maxing and it's killed any kind of build diversity on test.

Hybrid builds should at least be competitive on some lvl.

Why aren't defensive abilities based on a defensive stat?

Beleron · February 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Beleron wrote: »

why not just make it so you either have to stack crit itself, or crit multiplier. Have base crit multiplier zero. So if u don't get any, u crit for normal dmg, not 2x ect. Then you either do crazy high crit dmg, but very rare crits, or lots of crits, small dmg.

... so no one will make a crit build?

If you make it just as easy to stack as is, it won't change anything either.

Crit is fine, need more health and lower damage.

you can. but with this idea you can't do crazy high damage.
its ballenced.

You can crit for crazy high damage but you crit rarely.

Or you can crit at a normal rate, however your crit multiplier wouldn't be as high. Maybe instead of 4x your base dmg when you crit, it would be more like 2x

Or crit allot but only do like 1.2x your base dmg when you crit.

This would mean people could have crit builds, HOWEVER it means there is no way to be doing 10x base dmg, every 2nd attack. The crazy damage goes away and it is balanced.

This would however mean we would need another stat, crit multiplier, on our gear. Zenimax just needs to realize that only having 3 stat pools, and not more, as I stated in my previous post... strength, power, will, agility, wisdom, int, ect....
Too many things scale off of ONE STAT POOL. This makes balancing a pain.

Beleron · February 2015

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

I actually agree with no caps
Of course you are going to be 1 shooted if u don't put nothing in health and only use max stam or magica.

problem is, in pvp, people go all into magica, stand on a wall, and just nuke everyone.
then you gota think, no forward camps.
OMG THE WALK!
screw this, ima go play ___________
its ruining the pvp.

Holycannoli · February 2015

Yeah it's the fact that max magicka gives you max damage and defense via shields.

ItsRejectz · February 2015

"We don't like softcaps " ZOS removes softcaps - "We don't like no soft caps"

I actually feel for ZOS, they're fighting a battle they will never win with this community

kieso · February 2015

they should make it so stam and maj are just pools, no dmg increases, that way they can better balance the skills.

Preyfar · February 2015

The law of diminishing returns should apply to stats. Encourage diversity, but also still allow people to drop points into what they want.

Mumyo · February 2015

IM worried about noobs putting everything into their max damage and charge 1hit me no matter what and they will be successfull

Emma_Overload · February 2015

I'm going to be so p-ssed if ZoS brings back soft caps because of all the whining over hybrid builds!

I love hybrid builds, too, but soft caps were a total killjoy for theory-crafters who want to push the limit of what's possible.

As I've mentioned on other threads, the TRUE SOLUTION to this issue is to base damage on (Stamina + Magicka) / 2 instead of just Magicka or Stamina. This will be a fair solution for everybody and won't screw up anyone's builds.

ZRage · February 2015

They just need to nerf scaling on shields / healing and problem is solved.

It's ridicilous anyway that one class like DK can tank 20 people and heal to full in 3 clicks. Another thing goes down to it that you need less effort to just one click go into full health than predicting or taking action to evade taking damage like "dodge-roll" I'm actually fan of changes that would force people to more active meta-game than just holding block spamming bash and sitting in healing circle.

I really think there is room for diversity without diminishing returns / caps it's just matter of proper balancing of skills.

"As I've mentioned on other threads, the TRUE SOLUTION to this issue is to base damage on (Stamina + Magicka) / 2 instead of just Magicka or Stamina. This will be a fair solution for everybody and won't screw up anyone's builds. "

It's not a solution it's stupid actually, people will spend into both resource and just use most optimal skills which is going to be even easier to determine since everything will scale out of both resources. This won't solve a thing. It also won't happen because separate magicka / stamina scalling is core of this game.

Lava_Croft · February 2015

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

Uncapped stats was always going to be an issue with the current setup especially when it comes to abilities or gear that stack +stat % improvements.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this topic yet is what it is going to do to racial viability. You can pretty much guarantee the most popular races are going to be the ones with big % increases to stamina, hp or magicka. There are some races that have become such clear winners for certain classes (Altmer for Sorcerer for example) that it's almost ridiculous. Personally I'm not keen to see Elder Scrolls Online PvP turn into a battle between 3 groups consisting almost entirely of Altmer, Imperials and Bretons

That's why they changed the Argonian potion quaffing passive to something much less useful. That way there's even less reason to choose less popular races.

Helluin · February 2015

Even if I would like to see hybrid builds viable, I don't consider the removal of softcaps the main issue for many reasons.

I started a topic about hybrid builds and hybrid sets already the week before this one and infact we are discussing since the end of January about a common pool with not just one solution.
(Magicka+Stamina)/2 infact could have a bad impact both on pure and hybrid builds as explained in the linked topic.
There are several others points arised around that but I can't quote an entire thread.

Locke_ESO · February 2015

ItsRejectz wrote: »

"We don't like softcaps " ZOS removes softcaps - "We don't like no soft caps"

I actually feel for ZOS, they're fighting a battle they will never win with this community

As much as it goes against many ideas of "democracy" etc that people will have they just need to stop listening to the community on some things. I'd much rather see a game developer willing to stick by their decisions and say "this is our game!" rather than flip flopping about wasting time on these things. There must of been a point in this game development where they made a decision on whether to include soft caps or not why suddenly throw it all up in the air now? Is the current system broken? Not really imo. Some sets are more powerful than others and some races are definitely better than others but overall it would be fine with a few twinks to improve some things. Instead they are throwing open this virtual "Pandora's Box" of problems with this change. I cant wait to see the communities reaction to max magicka Altmer Sorcerers (+12% magicka) with the Necropetence set (+12% magicka) and a PvP staff (+4% magicka) using Overload in PvP. If they get Emperor (+100% magicka) they are going to be walking around like that High Elf in the cinematic trailer.

Vis · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

If everyone can be OP by min/maxing, then does it mean that the game is ... balanced?
Maybe the issue comes from all the tests being done in dueling situations, which don't really reflect the Alliance War happening on live. Every time I've been to Cyrodiil on the PTS this week, all the players were engaged in 1v1 fights and nobody was sieging keeps. If PVPers spent more time in group fights and less time perfecting their 1v1 builds, we'd see less threads complaining about shield spamming or permablock or maxed weapon damage.

Very well said. No one will be talking about shield stacking in group fights. If two attackers focus you, no number of shields are going to keep you up. Duelers need to step back look beyond 1v1s (which are rare I live).

Vis · February 2015

Way too much anecdotal evidence from dueling. A lot of these problems become ironed out as you move away from the pure 1v1 mentality. Hybrids will have advantages in group play. Min/maxing is just a passion pursued by the minority of the game population and good in the niche 1v1 arena.

Aquanova · February 2015

I cant wait to see the communities reaction to max magicka Altmer Sorcerers (+12% magicka) with the Necropetence set (+12% magicka) and a PvP staff (+4% magicka) using Overload in PvP. If they get Emperor (+100% magicka) they are going to be walking around like that High Elf in the cinematic trailer..............A prime example of why ZOS should eliminate all racial primary stat passives!

Lava_Croft · February 2015

The notion that duelers are all min-maxers is about as silly as the notion that everybody that plays in a large group does nothing but spam a single button.

Basically every single dueler I know does it to become more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of his particular class/build and become a better, well-rounded PvP player.

Well-rounded PvP players are at the heart of a good group.

LtCrunch · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

the TRUE SOLUTION to this issue is to base damage on (Stamina + Magicka) / 2 instead of just Magicka or Stamina. This will be a fair solution for everybody and won't screw up anyone's builds.

This is exactly what should be done.

Dredlord · February 2015

Aquanova wrote: »

I cant wait to see the communities reaction to max magicka Altmer Sorcerers (+12% magicka) with the Necropetence set (+12% magicka) and a PvP staff (+4% magicka) using Overload in PvP. If they get Emperor (+100% magicka) they are going to be walking around like that High Elf in the cinematic trailer..............A prime example of why ZOS should eliminate all racial primary stat passives!

or make them hybrid in nature like the Orc.

6% for 2 stats which makes it harder to spike 1 stat and easier to make a decent hybrid

Dredlord · February 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

the TRUE SOLUTION to this issue is to base damage on (Stamina + Magicka) / 2 instead of just Magicka or Stamina. This will be a fair solution for everybody and won't screw up anyone's builds.

This is exactly what should be done.

this is an absolutely terrible idea, I'm happy at least a few others realize it in this thread...

LtCrunch · February 2015

Dredlord wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

the TRUE SOLUTION to this issue is to base damage on (Stamina + Magicka) / 2 instead of just Magicka or Stamina. This will be a fair solution for everybody and won't screw up anyone's builds.

This is exactly what should be done.

this is an absolutely terrible idea, I'm happy at least a few others realize it in this thread...

Please enlighten me.

ItsRejectz · February 2015

Aquanova wrote: »

I cant wait to see the communities reaction to max magicka Altmer Sorcerers (+12% magicka) with the Necropetence set (+12% magicka) and a PvP staff (+4% magicka) using Overload in PvP. If they get Emperor (+100% magicka) they are going to be walking around like that High Elf in the cinematic trailer..............A prime example of why ZOS should eliminate all racial primary stat passives!

Meh, that's week ;-)
When I can charecter transfer I'll show you mine.. 5 piece seducer, 5 piece warlock, all magika glyphs, all have increased mundas effects trait, the atronach mundas and an altmer. Magika around 31k ( 33-34k with food) and magika regen is insane. Pop on overload and you feel like God lol

ArconSeptim · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Almost all balance issues have the same thing in common: scaling out of control due to no softcaps. Lets take a look at the primary balance issues on the PTS right now.

1. Damage shields scaling out of control on max magicka sorcerrors
2. Stamina damage scaling out of control on max stam max weapon damage templars, dks, and nb's
3. Survivability out of control on health stacking heavy armor perma blocking builds

All of these are extremes that are from min maxing. Right now, the way to build a character is to put everything into one stat, and then create a build around it.

What would you like to have, please explain? You can't have everything maxed out, thats why the champion system was planned, so you can build your champion as you want and make it somehow different than others, you cant have the best champion in everything, someone has maxed this someone has maxed this thats the system.No points for you.

Kragorn · February 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

If everyone can be OP by min/maxing, then does it mean that the game is ... balanced?
Maybe the issue comes from all the tests being done in dueling situations, which don't really reflect the Alliance War happening on live. Every time I've been to Cyrodiil on the PTS this week, all the players were engaged in 1v1 fights and nobody was sieging keeps. If PVPers spent more time in group fights and less time perfecting their 1v1 builds, we'd see less threads complaining about shield spamming or permablock or maxed weapon damage.

The game should be balanced around 1v1.

A ludicrously impossible thing to do, I'm assuming you're not serious.